Rev Matching Downshifts?

TTD · Jun 27, 2011

Anthony D said:
Tony, can I ask what lap times you run at both Loudon and Thunderbolt?

My best at Loudon when I was racing was on my TZ250 and it was a 1:15.7.

At our trackdays now, I rarely get below 1:21.

I don't race anymore so have only done trackdays at NJ. I believe 1:36 was my "best", but I don't think I have ever tried doing a "best lap". These days I pretty much just work on "sections" and then just chill out when I catch traffic.

I hardly ever ride above 90% at trackdays. (part of why I've never crashed at a trackday in 13 years) :biggrin

Anthony D · Jun 27, 2011

1:15 is moving!!! My best at Loudon is a 1:18. My best at Thunderbolt is a 1:30.

TTD · Jun 27, 2011

Anthony D said:
1:15 is moving!!! My best at Loudon is a 1:18. My best at Thunderbolt is a 1:30.

Sounds like we're pretty close. I have more time at Loudon than you... and you have more at Jersey.

I think I've done the equivalent of maybe 6 trackdays on T-Bolt and I believe you go there a lot?

Anthony D · Jun 27, 2011

I've been there maybe 10 times...

TTD · Jun 27, 2011

Anthony D said:
I've been there maybe 10 times...

ahhh... must be confusing you with someone else. I thought you did that many days each year. :biggrin

mcdozer44 · Jun 27, 2011

TTD said:
Putting aside the beginner trackday rider for a moment, I still recommend feeding out the clutch on the last downshift.

Granted, slipper clutches have negated the need as much, but I still think having the ability to do it is a good idea.

I find myself blipping more often than slipping the clutch, but I've been trying to do this more...especially on hard braking areas (dropping more than 1 gear). I figure it's a good place to start practicing it (on the last shift). I'm going to try to use it a little more at T5 T-bolt next time I'm there.

Lean With It said:
I don't rev match or feather the clutch(really because of noobness). Coming down off the straight I get the braking done early and then drop gears if I need to and go into the turn mid-high in the rpms.

I was coming down the roller coaster at VIR North Course, there is a sweeping downhill left hander with a small straight and then another left hander. I came down that hill and stood the bike up just a hair and downshifted with the idea to stay high in the power band to throttle out and into the straight (3 turns away) I knew as soon as I downshifted that if I dumped the clutch, the back tire would have spun out, so I feathered the clutch out and oddly enough the back in started walking outward and put me dead in line with the apex cone of the next left hander. Was totally awesome :biggrin but no way in hell I could duplicate it on purpose. I was just using throttle maintenance during that time, not on the throttle or off it. I also found out that braking hard to enter the roller coaster, my 97 GSXR 600 does not have a slipper clutch[/sarcasm]. Bike sounded like those teeth that dentists use that you wind-up and they just chatter on the table.

As I hit different tracks, I do find it more and more common that each track has a specific gear that can be used 98% of the time.

You'd be surprised how fast you can go into those last turns @ VIR (Hog's Pen). After the roller coaster and the little straight, by the end of the 2nd day I wasn't braking at all for the left/right, just throwing it in there. Gained almost 2 secs right there.

Anthony D · Jun 27, 2011

TTD said:
ahhh... must be confusing you with someone else. I thought you did that many days each year. :biggrin

maybe...

:dunno

the past 2 years i have only done 2-3 track days each since my dad was sick. 3 years ago i did maybe 5-6, and the year before that is was only like 3-4, so maybe i have 15 days there, max.

Moto_Joe · Jun 27, 2011

So I was at Road Atlanta this weekend, which has a lot of VERY high speed corner entries, that you are banging a downshift while cranked over already.

Continued with my "no blip" changeover and only had a few times where i upset the bike more than I would have liked, but nothign major.

Everything is now being controlled by the slipper clutch, and clutch lever modulation and I feel a lot smoother now than I did when I tried to do both of those, AND blip.

Land-Shark · Jun 27, 2011

I think a lot of this is number of shift dependant. On the R6 mostly I just dump the clutch unless it is 6 to 2. On the 1k I still dump the clutch for 6-3, but I'll always blip into 2nd.
I noticed if I slip the clutch out I'm most likely coasting during that time. Better for me to get the shifts done and get back to the throttle.

ccmhunt · Jun 27, 2011

To TTD (the OP....):
I know how I do it on the CBR1KRR.....but what are your thoughts about older bikes without slipper clutches?
I ride my 96 GSXR750 in advanced/expert on trackdays and am always the OLDEST bike out there....usually I rev match if the shifting is far enough out and I don't think it will upset the suspension too much. If the last shift will or its mid corner then slip clutch.

What say you?

TTD · Jun 28, 2011

ccmhunt said:
To TTD (the OP....):
I know how I do it on the CBR1KRR.....but what are your thoughts about older bikes without slipper clutches?
I ride my 96 GSXR750 in advanced/expert on trackdays and am always the OLDEST bike out there....usually I rev match if the shifting is far enough out and I don't think it will upset the suspension too much. If the last shift will or its mid corner then slip clutch.
What say you?

FWIW, none of my bikes have ever had a slipper clutch... even my current CBR600rr doesn't.

Here's my methods...

Try downshifting without blipping and see if the rear tire hops or skids or the transmission won't shift. If none of these things happen, then I don't see the benefit in "blipping". It's just another thing to do. :dunno

If you find the bike doesn't go into gear or things aren't smooth... then blip away.

Regardless of whether or not you "blip", if you don't have a slipper clutch you should always feed out the clutch slowly on the last downshift... especially since you're likely to have already tipped into the corner or are just about to.

I know that I like everything to be as smooth as possible after I've tipped in so the tires have their best chance of sticking. Feeding out the last clutch pull ensures the back tire won't begin skidding at an inopportune moment.

It's_Just_Bob · Jun 28, 2011

TTD said:
Feeding out the last clutch pull ensures the back tire won't begin skidding at an inopportune moment.

I'm paranoid that once I'm leaning I am going to let the clutch out too fast and there will be too much engine braking rushed to the back tire. Although, I do trail the brakes into pretty much every turn now. I guess it's a matter of slowing down and getting used to it :dunno

TTD · Jun 29, 2011

nj01_6 said:
I'm paranoid that once I'm leaning I am going to let the clutch out too fast and there will be too much engine braking rushed to the back tire.

It's not being paranoid if they really are after you! :biggrin

Point being... if you are not fully comfortable letting out the clutch in such a way the back tire doesn't skid... then you should definitely release the clutch fully before tip in.

It's_Just_Bob · Jun 29, 2011

I wasn't comfortable getting on or off the brakes while leaned over till I did it a few time either :cheers

makan44 · Jul 21, 2011

Hmm interesting thread - good stuff guys.

Maybe I need to rethink or experiment with some different tecniques.
Starting on an 03 sixxer swith no slipper, and after attending a schwantz school, and watching Twist of the Wrist II, I kind of had myself convinced that rev matching is the only "right way" to do it.

What I perceive as my biggest problem is that i'm a little dude and dont have big hands. So I find it difficult to maintain smooth constant pressure on the brake with 2 fingers while still bliping the throttle. After stabbing the brake a few times as I blipped I got in the habit of losening up on the brake lever as I blip to prevent accindently stabing them more when I rotate my wrist.
The result is I start my braking smooth, then get on it hard , then back off it as I blip and down shift, then back on it harder, then back off blip and shift, etc. Its like I'm modulating the brake on and off and I'm losing hard braking time with every downshift. I'm definetly feeling rushed going into turn 1 at thunderbolt comming down from 6th to 3rd gear. I also bang out the clutch as fast as I can so i don't prolong this process any longer then I need to.

Last track day I made an adjustment to lift my index finger off the brake lever at the time I blip and only leave my middle finger (since its longer) and I felt like that helped a tad bit. Still trying to elimate the easing off the brake part though as I blip.

Also just gettign to the point where im starting to trail brake, not quite to the apex yet though. Also noticed im starting to downshift with the bike leaned over a little too in some turns where I used to always have the bike straight up.

I think I either need to improve my rev matching technique, or stop rev matching and feather out the clutch. I have a slipper now and I know I can get away without the blip.

Curious are you guys going down 1 gear at a time or multiple at once?

TTD · Jul 21, 2011

makan44 said:
I think I either need to improve my rev matching technique, or stop rev matching and feather out the clutch. I have a slipper now and I know I can get away without the blip.

Curious are you guys going down 1 gear at a time or multiple at once?

In my opinion, you (everyone?) should try downshifting without the blip.

If it doesn't upset the bike at all... then why bother doing it? As you described, it can add length to your braking area by not allowing you to brake as hard as possible.

If your bike really wiggles when you don't blip, then keep doing it. (or consider delaying the first downshift a bit...until you've done a little more braking)

I find the gears mesh better if I do one at a time. However, keep in mind that you don't need to move the clutch the full travel distance between shifts... just enough to re-engage everything and feel that back tire drag.

It's_Just_Bob · Jul 21, 2011

I stopped blipping for my last race weekend and I like it better that way for sure. Just one less thing to think about.

Anthony D · Jul 21, 2011

I still see a ton of top level racers blipping on their downshifts...

Moto_Joe · Jul 21, 2011

Anthony D said:
I still see a ton of top level racers blipping on their downshifts...

Yup. I was watching one of the AMA superbike races the other day and noticing all of the top 3-5 guys were at least in some/most corners.

I still do depending on situation. But I used to ALWAYS, I dont anymore.

DemonRR · Jul 21, 2011

ive seen clutch in till the apex. was ama race at Mid Ohio entering the keyhole. not sure who it was.

Rev Matching Downshifts?

TTD

Anthony D

TTD

Anthony D

TTD

mcdozer44

Anthony D

Moto_Joe

Land-Shark

ccmhunt

TTD

It's_Just_Bob

TTD

It's_Just_Bob

makan44

TTD

It's_Just_Bob

Anthony D

Moto_Joe

DemonRR

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