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Cam chain tensioner

10K views 20 replies 5 participants last post by  SparkyMJ  
#1 ·
Hey guys.
Can someone help me out with this.
I have cam chain noise.
I want to remove and adjust it.
This is the tensioner.
How do I do it.
It's not the same as the ones in videos I've seen.
Cheers
 

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#2 ·
You shouldn't really adjust factory hydraulic/spring-loaded tensioners. Yes, you can do the 'unscrew the mounting bolts until you hear a single click' method but this is sloppy and can be bad if you do it wrong.

Unless you have a ton of miles, the tensioner itself is probably fine. GSX-R's (like every bike) make a certain amount of valvetrain noise that is normal. For a healthy engine, this valvetrain noise is usually loudest at cold start where the clearances are larger, and then as the engine warms, things tighten up into spec. For an actually loose cam chain, the opposite is often (but not always) true. It might be most quiet/smooth sounding at cold start, and then get clacky/slappy/ticking once hot, especially around idle and low RPM. My understanding is that a loose chain expands with heat and is looser once the engine is hot. So if you have that, then yes, you might have a loose cam chain or worn tensioner.

Many bikes around 20,000 miles and above (especially abused bikes) make valvetrain noises that aren't the cam chain or tensioner. For example, my '04 750 made a ton of valvetrain noise, and in my case, it was high RPM and high load. Mine came with 42,000 abusive miles and a ton of issues, for reference. I thought it was a loose cam chain too before I got into the work. But, as the shop manual predicted as it's top most-likely cause, my valve springs were weakened. Rare, but happens with age and abuse. I rebuilt my cylinder head with new ones and had the old ones measured and confirmed weak, and the engine sounds nearly like new after the work. You could also badly need a valve clearance adjustment, big clearances (usually erroneously set or due to bad part wear) will be loud and sound bad as well. Only way to tell is to check and adjust it.

I have also put a manual screw-type MCCT on both my sport bikes, and I love them. They are hard to set up, and hard to learn the fine line of too loose a setting or grinding away your chain guides. But with a perfect setting, the tensioner itself just can't wear out; it's a screw. If you're not mechanically inclined, don't get a manual cam chain tensioner.

A loose and slapping cam chain sounds irregular, crunchy, and slightly of metallic grinding. Normal (but worn) valvetrains usually sound like loud clockwork, and should be perfectly regular and timed. So don't necessarily jump into "oh I need to adjust the chain tensioner because my engine makes noises", start with the preventative maintenance.

And make sure you're not low on oil, and using the right oil. Hope this helps.

-Mike
 
#5 ·
Yeah I agree with you. Although I am hesitant to recommend this option to someone whom I am unsure of their mechanical fluency. CCT is a thing that if you mess up the install or tension you could ruin your motor.

So I tend to recommend them less often, but yeah I do think they are usually superior in function. But most people don't want to take the valve cover off to really get the tension perfect and make sure they didn't jump timing on the install.

All to also say, make sure doing the MCCT is what you really need, so you don't waste doing all that to not fix a problem too.

-Mike
 
#7 ·
no you can adjust a manual by feel, I think that's how the ape instructions detail install? screw adjuster in till you feel good resistance, spin engine forward a few times, feel tension, if its the same then back off what do they say 3/4 turn.. that should be good to run engine, then if its loose or you fear its too tight you can set while running..

back off till the rattle gets loudish, then screw in till it quiets, but here you have to know what quiet is, its has a certain amount of noise.. also a stretched chain may make more noise as well, unsure go for an auto . .

either way its not rocket science, if you are sure your auto is trashed you will know adjust the manual till that racket to goes away, of course its not super tight wish I had a ft lbs for ya but I don't maybe ape or someone does? your gen auto should be good to go, the first ones had an issue and a recall or service bulletin...
 
#9 ·
screw adjuster in till you feel good resistance, spin engine forward a few times, feel tension, if its the same then back off what do they say 3/4 turn.. that should be good to run engine, then if its loose or you fear its too tight you can set while running..
My PSR came with the same instructions, and like I mentioned in my above post, the design of my PSR tensioner made this impossible. Sealing a threaded bolt to be oil tight isn't really possible, threads aren't fluid tight. So to counter this, they put a few super hard O-rings around the threaded bolt, and they have held in oil pretty well, but all my MCCT's get moist with oil after a while, since like I said, they cannot be perfectly sealed like a gasket.

The threaded adjuster on mine was so hard to turn that there was no "good resistance" to feel. I have had MCCT's that did allow this method to work and they did provide good feel in the adjuster, but they leak more than my PSR one.

That is what led me down the rabbit hole of finding the best possible way to set it.

You make a good point though, setting an MCCT should not be hard. But at the same time, there are countless forum posts for every bike where users say "Help I installed an MCCT and now my motor won't run" and we all know how that went. Hence my usual recommendations that MCCT's aren't for folks who haven't gotten that deep in a motor a few times. I know you, Engenia, myself, and many others on here have done that work proficiently times over in the past, but most folks on here probably haven't. Not judging anyone, I've just found it to be the best recommendation for most folks.

-Mike
 
#10 ·
... the valve cover off, and set the tension by rotating the crank by hand and feeling for the changes in chain sag at the top between the camshaft sprockets, with that top chain guide off.
Are you looking for the setting that just approaches the least sag?
ie. too loose and it sags as a lobe goes over "centre" on the bucket, but as you tighten it, the sag will become zero. Tighten it further and it is too tight. You're looking for the point at which the sag just reaches zero.
the "set by feel/sound" method is a decent ... way to get a setting that won't damage your engine ....
If you heard my Tornado at idle you wouldn't hear the cam chain noise over the engine noise. It's like a Duke dry clutch at idle, but worse. Setting it up by the method above would be the only way.
It would be laborious on the Tornado though. I measure the tensioner depth at 1000 km, when I expect 2 mm movement, then every 5000 km, when I expect 0-1 mm of movement. If there is no movement in 10,000, or more than 1 mm every 5000, I start to worry. The chain is toast at 25,000km.
I saved the engine once by tracking it, when the chain wasn't getting its proper lubrication and wore out prematurely.
 
#11 ·
That is interesting how much of a measurable change in tensioner depth you are able to measure over the miles. It does seem like excessive wear though. Must just be a different thing than the tensioner itself. Maybe your cam chain guides are made of a softer and more easily worn out plastic? 1-2mm movement on the adjuster I would think would translate to quite a bit of worn down cam chain guide plastic material. Have you looked at the plastic on the guides?

One of the awesome things I've found about my MCCT's in the bikes I've put them in is that I think to date, I have not had to adjust one unless I took it off or something. My factory spring tensioners obviously worsened as either the tensioner aged and weakened, or as some parts wore down. But since I've put the MCCT's in, those motors have show significantly less signs of wear and aging in the valvetrain, and even removing and reinstalling them, they are perfectly set still. It actually blows my mind how good they work when the engine is also in good shape. They have been more maintenance-free than the "maintenance-free" factory tensioner that is designed to last forever.

For example, my Ninja, I got it around 10,000 miles, and around 20,000 or so miles it had developed a worsening chain slapping, and with every oil change or so, it was noticeably worse. I also found that my valve clearances were getting out of spec pretty fast, and they have the 20,000mi service interval, but I was checking them more frequently than that. So around then, I put on the SpearsRacing MCCT on that bike, and I am not kidding, my valvetrain in that bike has nearly ceased wear. The last time I checked the valves, they were all still in spec, and the cam chain has never made any noise since I installed and set the tensioner. It now has over 60,000 miles and runs fantastic. So I am led to believe that the manual cam chain tensioner is inherently better in that it doesn't apply pressure actively to the chain while running, it just takes up the slack perfectly around the chain when set properly. And I think that has improved all running aspects of that motor. On then engines I put them on, I think subjectively the idle and low speed operation has improved from the MCCT such that it feels like the engine runs more smoothly, almost as if it isn't 'loping' over each time the camshaft lobe presses a valve in, it feels more fluid.

So to answer your first question about the chain sag, not quite. It's not like I try and set it to where there is no chain slack at all without tension, it's a tad looser than that. A very small amount looser than that. There should be an amount of sag in the chain when you press down on it in certain camshaft phases, and indeed rotating the camshaft will make it tighten and loosen as the lobes push valves open, so you want to really measure and press on the chain when some pistons are in TDC. You can watch the intake camshaft rotate slightly in reverse a few degrees as you press down on the chain for sag, and that little bit of movement indicates that the system isn't under tension, and that when it's the right amount, you have the tensioner set just right such that the chain rides on the chain guides, but doesn't press into them nearly at all. That is why I think the stock tensioner is just inherently worse, they handle the last little bit of tension needed in the chain by pressing against it constantly with a spring, and I believe that is why they suck and wear out.

It's still a bit of a YMMV thing, but every bike I have installed an MCCT on has been blessed with improved valvetrain health, both subjectively and objectively, and more so with the precise tensioning method I described above.

Here is one video I found extremely helpful, and what he really highlights about the MCCT and its purpose is that it ideally helps you "control your cam timing" more accurately. Very helpful, I knew I could find this vid:

-Mike
 
#12 ·
That is interesting how much of a measurable change in tensioner depth you are able to measure over the miles. It does seem like excessive wear though.
The valve springs are 1,000 Newtons! When I first attempted to depress those springs with my old valve spring compressor, I bent it, and the spring didn't budge. I had to make a compressor out of a rather large, quality G-clamp to solve the problem.
The Tornado is a 900 triple that spins out to 11,500. It'll go higher if you are game. The valves won't float. It's the only engine I've seen that the power curve doesn't drop as it approaches the limiter. It's still rising.
It doesn't use titanium valves and the valves are huge compared with the gixxer. Hence the strong springs - which will form a dent from the valve stem in the oem shims.
The chain is stuffed at 25,000 because of those springs & the fact that it is a small standard chain. Much less robust & far lighter than the gixxer chain.
The 1130 engine (a stroked 900) used in the naked version of the bike uses the same cam chain but replaces it at 45,000 km. It's rev limit is reduced to 10,000, uses lighter valve springs and makes 30 hp less than the 900, but a lot more torque.
Must just be a different thing than the tensioner itself. Maybe your cam chain guides are made of a softer and more easily worn out plastic?
The moving guide can reach 50,000 km before I replace it. The two other guides don't wear at all. I've not replaced either in 130,000 km.
 
#14 ·
Indeed! Most people buy an MCCT to fix a spring-type unit that is either underperforming or has reached the limits of its range due to some other wear, but he highlights the actual benefits of using the MCCT like I also discussed above, but he is more elegant at explaining it. Like I mentioned, I do subjectively feel that these engines run better with them.

Man your Tornado has a crazy valvetrain. Those springs are nuts. Do you get any noticeable valve seat wear with those steel valves pounding themselves into the cylinder head so hard?

-Mike
 
#17 · (Edited)
Compton mentions around 9:55 that the OEM adjusters have a "spring loaded plunger with a ratcheting locking mechanism". That sounds like the design that Suzuki used through 2008 (on the 1000's). The plunger included a rack with gear-like teeth that are engaged by a pawl. Under certain conditions, possibly race or high mileage, the gear teeth can be damaged, which caused the pawl to not properly engage. There used to be a pic somewhere here of a rack with damaged teeth but it seems to be gone.
Image

The adjuster was redesigned for 2009 to a screw-like mechanism and the complaints here about the adjuster seemed to stop. Unfortunately the new adjuster is not backward compatible.
Image


P.S. As far as I can tell, the OP has the redesigned adjuster. Go figure.
 
#19 ·
P.S. As far as I can tell, the OP has the redesigned adjuster. Go figure.
Even more reason I seldom recommend the MCCT online haha. Could be something totally unrelated.

For what it's worth for those reading along, I have found my 750 and a few other people's 600/750s of the same model as mine to have the same "high RPM top-end clattering" I had, and I think most people online just read "engine noise" and automatically blurt out "CCT bad", but in my case it was definitely my valve springs had weakened.

I think weakened valve springs is a greatly overlooked cause of the symptom of engine noise, very few people on the forums talk about it. Even my shop book says that the first (non-adjustment solved) repair for a noisy valvetrain is weakened valve springs, after valve clearance adjustment, but you should be doing the latter routinely anyway.

Bikes like the K4 (and for that matter, really anything approaching 2 decades old) start having wear items that usually aren't wear items, so people just expect that since something has worked for 20 years, it should work forever, but that just isn't the case.

I mentioned my repairs in one of my other threads, but I put new valve springs in my cylinder head and it sounded like a new engine again, massive difference. I even re-dyno'd the bike after that repair (and a new fuel pump) and although that isn't conclusive, it did make more power and torque after the repair, and it sounds like God intended a GSX-R to sound like.

Most people probably don't want to pay someone to repair a cylinder head on a cheap, 20 year old motorcycle, or they can't/won't repair it themselves. My buddy is running into this exact issue on a K4 600 track bike he just got, and it sounds exactly like what mine did before the spring replacement, and he isn't looking forward to the spring change, understandably. But I think I can simplify and speed up the process for him since I just did it.

TLDR, remember that valvetrain parts other than the CCT can cause engine noises!

-Mike
 
#18 ·
Man your Tornado has a crazy valvetrain. Those springs are nuts. Do you get any noticeable valve seat wear with those steel valves pounding themselves into the cylinder head so hard?
It certainly took me by surprise, but when you think about it, the engine was designed for WSBK, when the rules allowed a 3 cylinder 900 & no-one had entered one at the time. More revs make more power, so I suspect that the bike Pete Goddard rode had a higher rev limit than mine.
No noticeable valve seat wear, but as above, the shims suffered because of it. It's only recently that a local shim manufacturer has been able to produce shims that are hard enough to withstand it.
Compton mentions around 9:55 that the OEM adjusters have a "spring loaded plunger with a ratcheting locking mechanism".
That's exactly what the Tornado uses, and there has been a report of a failed ratchet. Not by me though. I've never taken it to the track where it's most likely to happen, and never will. That's the gixxer's job.
 
#21 ·
Yeah once you're that deep into it, might as well measure or just do new springs, and of course guide seals. My springs were just shy of the min spec, and I was too lazy to have the new springs measured... Can check the valve guides themselves for lateral end-play too and replace as needed.

Only thing my cylinder head has that is sub-optimal is that the stock 55,000mi valves didn't look too great. The seats actually looked quite good, but the titanium coating on the valves themselves had worn off in areas on the contact area, and all the valves have minor pitting on the sealing surfaces. New TI valves were too expensive, and I didn't want to experiment with steel valves and needing new seats and whatnot, so I put them back in and it is good enough. I probably lost a few ponies due to mild valve leakage, but up in the high RPM's it seals enough for the short explosions that it works good enough and serves its purpose of teaching me better technique on track, so good enough. It runs sooooo well.

-Mike