Cam degree adventure pics

stam · Dec 23, 2003

I re-mounted the dial gauge on the EX and I took extra care to get the lift,
and I got .299, duration and lobe centers were the same.

The measurements are with the cam tension-er and top run in place, and I didn't turn the engine backwards.
The valve clearance on the EX valve was .25 and on the IN .15, (middle of the spec.range).

TLTRIKSTER · Dec 23, 2003

It looks like the engine is still in the frame. Was there any problems with clearance? I've had others tell me that you have to remove the motor in order to properly degree it?

stam · Dec 23, 2003

TLTRIKSTER said:
It looks like the engine is still in the frame. Was there any problems with clearance? I've had others tell me that you have to remove the motor in order to properly degree it?

Still in the frame, yup....

To degree it is not a problem, in fact quite easy, no clearance problems...
Now if you have to remove the cams (to fit new ones, or to change the valve shims)
it is a tad more difficult. I had two problems;
I had clearance problems with one of the cam journal holder bolts, just couldn't get the
torque wrench with the allen socket to fit....ha, nothing that grinding down the allen socket
didn't fix! Second thing is if you have APE adjustable cam sprockets you will not be able to
use a torque wrench with sockets on them, frame is in the way. The 10mm wrench fits just
fine though, so hand torque + permanent thread lock it is.
Also you will need a mirror to see the timing marks.
A set of knee pads also wouldn't go amiss.

stam · Dec 23, 2003

The WEBs are in, what a hassle!
And now I have to take them all out again as all the valve clearances are out.
The are all out by +0.2mm.
The EX valves are now 0.45mm (spec 0.20 - 0.30)
The IN valves are now 0.35mm (spec 0.10 - 0.20)

Is this normal?
I told the dudes at APE it was a K3, they said they had the correct cams.

The numbers on the cams are different:

Flip 2 · Dec 23, 2003

Stam-
Trick stuff.

Bry-
Thanks for pointing out the .040/.050 detail. A quick check of my Web Cam cam card shows that to be the case. I can be good at overlooking stuff like that. I'm not overjoyed with my Web cam's (intake only) performance. Makes me rethink what I'm currently up to in the cam dept.

GIXXER THE KID · Dec 24, 2003

Flip 2 said:
Stam-
Trick stuff.

Bry-
Thanks for pointing out the .040/.050 detail. A quick check of my Web Cam cam card shows that to be the case. I can be good at overlooking stuff like that. I'm not overjoyed with my Web cam's (intake only) performance. Makes me rethink what I'm currently up to in the cam dept.

Flip: I personaly think the intake cam has a few degrees to much duration stock, so I would think the webs have to much dyration.. I would like to see it around 245 myself.

stam · Dec 26, 2003

stam said:
The WEBs are in, what a hassle!
And now I have to take them all out again as all the valve clearances are out.
The are all out by +0.2mm.
The EX valves are now 0.45mm (spec 0.20 - 0.30)
The IN valves are now 0.35mm (spec 0.10 - 0.20)

Is this normal?
I told the dudes at APE it was a K3, they said they had the correct cams.

I tried to call WEB about this but as any sensible person would be, they are closed until the new year.
While poking around on their web site I find that they reduce the 'base circle' on their DRZ-LTZ
cams, thus you must re-shim all valves.

Wonder if they did the same with the GSXR1000 cams and forgot to tell us?

Any fit these and know for sure?

MrMW · Dec 26, 2003

stam said:

stam said:
The WEBs are in, what a hassle!
And now I have to take them all out again as all the valve clearances are out.
The are all out by +0.2mm.
The EX valves are now 0.45mm (spec 0.20 - 0.30)
The IN valves are now 0.35mm (spec 0.10 - 0.20)

Is this normal?
I told the dudes at APE it was a K3, they said they had the correct cams.

Click to expand...

I tried to call WEB about this but as any sensible person would be, they are closed until the new year.
While poking around on their web site I find that they reduce the 'base circle' on their DRZ-LTZ
cams, thus you must re-shim all valves.

Wonder if they did the same with the GSXR1000 cams and forgot to tell us?

Any fit these and know for sure?

It is typical to have to replace every shim in the head with aftermarket cams. It's pretty much automatic with any weld up.

Even the Yosh Stg 1 cams use a different clearance on the intake side and require reshimming that side.

When you get into reduced base circle cams, you'll know it. It's usually a full mm or more. The feeler gauges get so thick that its difficult to hit the correct shim exactly right on the first try. Stacking several gauages instead of 1 thick one helps. The math trick they show gets you close, but you basically wind up where you're at now, a little off.

You're doing a good job working your way through this, and it's been interesting to watch.

BusaGeek@work · Dec 26, 2003

Don't curse Web too much for reducing the base circle. It's easier and cheaper to change shims than to machine valve guides.

stam · Dec 26, 2003

[

MrMW said:

stam said:

stam said:
The WEBs are in, what a hassle!
And now I have to take them all out again as all the valve clearances are out.
The are all out by +0.2mm.
The EX valves are now 0.45mm (spec 0.20 - 0.30)
The IN valves are now 0.35mm (spec 0.10 - 0.20)

Is this normal?
I told the dudes at APE it was a K3, they said they had the correct cams.

Click to expand...

I tried to call WEB about this but as any sensible person would be, they are closed until the new year.
While poking around on their web site I find that they reduce the 'base circle' on their DRZ-LTZ
cams, thus you must re-shim all valves.

Wonder if they did the same with the GSXR1000 cams and forgot to tell us?

Any fit these and know for sure?

Click to expand...

It is typical to have to replace every shim in the head with aftermarket cams. It's pretty much automatic with any weld up.

Even the Yosh Stg 1 cams use a different clearance on the intake side and require reshimming that side.

When you get into reduced base circle cams, you'll know it. It's usually a full mm or more. The feeler gauges get so thick that its difficult to hit the correct shim exactly right on the first try. Stacking several gauages instead of 1 thick one helps. The math trick they show gets you close, but you basically wind up where you're at now, a little off.

You're doing a good job working your way through this, and it's been interesting to watch.

Thanks for the info guys. Great help. I think you saved me ~$85 on the wrong shims:

I went out and got a new set of 'bent' feeler gauges, as the straight ones had no flex at the .5mm
gap, not much clearance. Now using the bent ones they fit without flexing and the measurements now are:
~0.66mm on the EX and
~0.48mm on the IN
That is a whole 0.5mm increase in shim size from the original 1.50s

This requires shims in the 195-205 range. Gasp, 4 off from the largest shim size of 220.

And this time I am buying a magnet to remove those damn buckets.

I wasn't cursing WEB as such, just wanted to make sure they sent me the correct cams.
I ordered the 'new cams'(didn't send mine in), and wanted assurance that these K1/K2 re-welded cams were okay
for a K3. No big deal to the mechanics in the know, but to a cam virgin like me any little unknown is a panic....

Thanks again.

Oh what a pain:

stam · Dec 26, 2003

Luckily I could mark the cam chain pins with magic marker and holding the cam chain up
so it wouldn't slip a tooth on the crank shaft I was able to put the WEBS with the adjustable
APEs on the same teeth as stock.

stam · Jan 7, 2004

BASE CIRCLE INFO:
After the new year I was able to talk to the nice ladies at WEB.
They told me that they reduce, or grind down the base circle on the Hard Weld ones to
remove any imperfections, and they also used to do this to the New Cams as well so they
would match. They don't do this any longer though, all new GSXR1000 cams have the OEM
base circle. Seems like www.gsxrzone.com sent me an older cam (grrrrrr).
WEB offered to replace my cams with a standard base circle ones if I sent them back.
Must say you can't beat that kind of service.
I don't know if it is worth while though as the sprockets are pressed on and I have already
ordered the shims. Can anyone think of any advantages in getting them swapped?

The OEMs have a base circle of 1.105 and the WEBs base circle is 1.078, this a .028 inch
or .71mm difference, this necessitates shims in the range of 195-205 on my engine.

So is there any technical advantages, reliability, performance or otherwise to swap them?

stam said:
[

MrMW said:

stam said:

stam said:
The WEBs are in, what a hassle!
And now I have to take them all out again as all the valve clearances are out.
The are all out by +0.2mm.
The EX valves are now 0.45mm (spec 0.20 - 0.30)
The IN valves are now 0.35mm (spec 0.10 - 0.20)

Is this normal?
I told the dudes at APE it was a K3, they said they had the correct cams.

Click to expand...

I tried to call WEB about this but as any sensible person would be, they are closed until the new year.
While poking around on their web site I find that they reduce the 'base circle' on their DRZ-LTZ
cams, thus you must re-shim all valves.

Wonder if they did the same with the GSXR1000 cams and forgot to tell us?

Any fit these and know for sure?

Click to expand...

It is typical to have to replace every shim in the head with aftermarket cams. It's pretty much automatic with any weld up.

Even the Yosh Stg 1 cams use a different clearance on the intake side and require reshimming that side.

When you get into reduced base circle cams, you'll know it. It's usually a full mm or more. The feeler gauges get so thick that its difficult to hit the correct shim exactly right on the first try. Stacking several gauages instead of 1 thick one helps. The math trick they show gets you close, but you basically wind up where you're at now, a little off.

You're doing a good job working your way through this, and it's been interesting to watch.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info guys. Great help. I think you saved me ~$85 on the wrong shims:

I went out and got a new set of 'bent' feeler gauges, as the straight ones had no flex at the .5mm
gap, not much clearance. Now using the bent ones they fit without flexing and the measurements now are:
~0.66mm on the EX and
~0.48mm on the IN
That is a whole 0.5mm increase in shim size from the original 1.50s

This requires shims in the 195-205 range. Gasp, 4 off from the largest shim size of 220.

And this time I am buying a magnet to remove those damn buckets.

I wasn't cursing WEB as such, just wanted to make sure they sent me the correct cams.
I ordered the 'new cams'(didn't send mine in), and wanted assurance that these K1/K2 re-welded cams were okay
for a K3. No big deal to the mechanics in the know, but to a cam virgin like me any little unknown is a panic....

Thanks again.

MrMW · Jan 7, 2004

stam said:
BASE CIRCLE INFO:
After the new year I was able to talk to the nice ladies at WEB.
They told me that they reduce, or grind down the base circle on the Hard Weld ones to
remove any imperfections, and they also used to do this to the New Cams as well so they
would match. They don't do this any longer though, all new GSXR1000 cams have the OEM
base circle. Seems like www.gsxrzone.com sent me an older cam (grrrrrr).
WEB offered to replace my cams with a standard base circle ones if I sent them back.
Must say you can't beat that kind of service.
I don't know if it is worth while though as the sprockets are pressed on and I have already
ordered the shims. Can anyone think of any advantages in getting them swapped?

The OEMs have a base circle of 1.105 and the WEBs base circle is 1.078, this a .028 inch
or .71mm difference, this necessitates shims in the range of 195-205 on my engine.

So is there any technical advantages, reliability, performance or otherwise to swap them?

There is a really bright cam lady that works at Megacycle as well. I've met both of them face to face. It intrigues me that both manufacturers tech departements are extremely competent and helpful ladies.

You've probably found out by now that you can get shims up to 3.00. I've run them pretty close to that size in 750s with Stg 2 cams and havn't had a problem.

It IS a pain in the ass to have to change every shim by that much, but if you've already gone through the misery I wouldn't bother to send them back. Welcome to the club, it's good to hear membership is closed.

Good luck with the rest of your project.

stam · Jan 7, 2004

It's funny you mention that but these ladies could convert mm to inches and back and forth and up and down...
They knew all their cams and bikes and which year as well.
Breath of fresh air really.

RussZTT · Jan 8, 2004

Yeah I read all of this but my eyes started to cross lol. I can do this on cars but bikes I will have to learn. So just by changing out cams what kind of HP numbers are you looking for? I also have a K3...

stam · Jan 8, 2004

RussZTT said:
Yeah I read all of this but my eyes started to cross lol. I can do this on cars but bikes I will
have to learn. So just by changing out cams what kind of HP numbers are you looking for?
I also have a K3...

Why that is a very good question, and I don't know.
My motivation for doing this mod was to degree my OEM cams to spec in a vain search for
missing hp as this bike made 137hp stock. The stock cams don't come with adjustable
sprockets so while I was picking up a set of adjustable APE sprockets I thought I might as
well go all the way.

From what I have seen posted I would expect a max of 10hp for the EX cam.
See this post The difference with the 750intake mod! Dyno Charts
Now this is for a 750IN cam which is pretty much the same as the WEB 566EX, they also
shimmed the head a little, a valve job, and 104/109 timing (which is top end biased.)

So I would hope to pick up a few for degreeing the cams correctly, a few for the WEB IN and <10 for the EX.
We shall see, I will post a dyno graph when I am done, but I am still waiting from my shims from RonAyers.
Hello Ron, hello?

GIXXER THE KID · Jan 8, 2004

Just so you know, the wasn't just from cams...I also had a pipe in there too. I would only expect 4 to 7 with just cams

stam · Jan 28, 2004

I was measuring the cams with a vernier caliper while waiting for the shims.
I noticed some disturbing things about the WEB EX cam.

OEM:
=====
IN
===
BaseCircle: 1.105"
Lobe: 1.455"
Lift = 1.455 - 1.105 = .35" = 8.89mm
EX
===
BC: 1.105"
Lobe: 1.414"
Lift = 1.414 - 1.105 = .309" = 7.8486mm

Lift as measured by the dial gauge when degreeing the cams(shim clearance IN=.15mmEX=.25mm):
IN: .357" = 9.0678mm
EX: .299" = 7.595mm

WEB 540/566:
===========
IN
===
BaseCircle: 1.073"
Lobe: 1.457"
Lift = 1.457 - 1.073 = .384" = 9.75mm
EX
===
BC: 1.076"
Lobe: 1.404"
Lift = 1.404 - 1.076 = .328" = 8.33mm

Lift as measured by the dial gauge when degreeing the cams(shim clearance IN=.15mmEX=.28mm):
IN: .388" = 9.855mm
EX: .320" = 8.125mm

WEB WebPages:
IN: .384"
EX: .335"

Looks like the vernier caliper measurements are spot on for the IN, thus I must conclude the following:

A) My dial gauge measurements are off by +0.004 - +0.007" on the IN and by -0.01 - -0.007
GIXXER_THE_KID caught this in a post above, and he is correct the OEM EX lift should be closer to
.315". I took a careful look and the problem is that the engine is still in the frame....
The dial gauge can't be mounted in a parallel plane to the EX valves, thus the pointer is not exactly 90 degrees
at the bucket surface. This causes it to 'slip around' on the bucket surface. As the lobe is rotated
the gauge pointer slides from the edge of the bucket towards the centre a bit and then back again.
This causes the negative error. This sliding doesn't occur in the first 0.040" lift range so the duration
and cam lobe timings should be correct.

B) The WEB cam sent by GSXRZONE is not up to spec lift wise(or duration) as listed on WEB's webpage.

Duration:
OEM (my measurements) IN:246, EX:220 @ 0.04"
WEB specs: IN:248, EX:236 @ 0.05"
As measured by me and my dial gauge: IN=248, EX:234 @ 0.04"
For giggles I checked the IN duration @ 0.05", it was 241.5
So if it's the same difference for the EX then 234-6.5=227.5 @ 0.05" way short???????????

GIXXER THE KID · Jan 29, 2004

Just a side note: the 750 intake (mod) is .330 lift and around 240 duration @.04.... Very close to the web exhaust cam...

stam · Jan 29, 2004

GIXXER THE KID said:
Just a side note: the 750 intake (mod) is .330 lift and around 240 duration @.04....
Very close to the web exhaust cam...

Yup, you would be correct if you meant that my measurements of the WEB EX are close to
the 750IN, but they are not close to the specs published by WEB, the WEB IN on the other
hand measured quite close to their published specs.

Cam degree adventure pics

stam

TLTRIKSTER

stam

stam

Flip 2

GIXXER THE KID

stam

MrMW

BusaGeek@work

stam

stam

stam

MrMW

stam

RussZTT

stam

GIXXER THE KID

stam

GIXXER THE KID

stam

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