[Pharmac1st]

i agree with the title. comparing the kawasaki ninja 300, the yamaha mt-07 (35 kW) and the suzuki gsx-r 750 that i have been on, it became clear to me: the bigger the bike the less forgiving in the case of an error.
errors will happen even if you are an experienced rider but with more experience the probability of dealing with an error the right way increases drastically.

 

[springfall2008]

i agree with the title. comparing the kawasaki ninja 300, the yamaha mt-07 (35 kW) and the suzuki gsx-r 750 that i have been on, it became clear to me: the bigger the bike the less forgiving in the case of an error.
errors will happen even if you are an experienced rider but with more experience the probability of dealing with an error the right way increases drastically.

Simple example, around 6 weeks ago it was a cold day, just a little above freezing. I was turning out of my driveway and stopped waiting for a car, well the car was going quite slowly and I got fed up and decided to pull out. Oh, it's a bit closer than I thought, better give it some gas... Well the rear spun and the bike started to slide. I ease off the throttle and correct - crash avoided. This all happened at less than 20 mph - lots of power combined with a cold road and cold tyres is a risky combination.

Anyhow, the point is if I was on a less powerful bike it would have been much less likely and it was only experience that saved me from going down.

 

[blazenblue]

Simple example, around 6 weeks ago it was a cold day, just a little above freezing. I was turning out of my driveway and stopped waiting for a car, well the car was going quite slowly and I got fed up and decided to pull out. Oh, it's a bit closer than I thought, better give it some gas... Well the rear spun and the bike started to slide. I ease off the throttle and correct - crash avoided. This all happened at less than 20 mph - lots of power combined with a cold road and cold tyres is a risky combination.

Anyhow, the point is if I was on a less powerful bike it would have been much less likely and it was only experience that saved me from going down.

The problem wasn't the power of the bike, it was you being impatient. Don't blame the power of the bike when you could have easily prevented it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

 

[maniac1886]

The problem wasn't the power of the bike, it was you being impatient. Don't blame the power of the bike when you could have easily prevented it.

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Im pretty sure the point he was trying to make is that, the problem is human error. No amount of experience can eliminate human error, and in most cases, the margin of error is exponentially higher with green riders. When an error is made, the power of a liter bike is much less forgiving and Will put you on your ass. If it were a smaller, less powerful bike, the error would have had much less of an exaggerated outcome. That gives new riders the ability to acknowledge, understand, and learn from their errors while still maintaining the ability to ride tomorrow

 

[Just_Nick]

The problem wasn't the power of the bike, it was you being impatient. Don't blame the power of the bike when you could have easily prevented it.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Actually, the problem was the power of the bike was exacerbated by the impatience of the rider. It's a lot harder to spin the rear tire on a low-power bike compared to a liter bike, even something like a 600. Liter bikes can really spin the rear wheel in a lot of places that you don't expect. And, like the dyno shows, the mode selector doesn't inhibit the thing that gets you into trouble: the torque

 

[springfall2008]

The problem wasn't the power of the bike, it was you being impatient. Don't blame the power of the bike when you could have easily prevented it.

Of course it was human error (my error in this case), but the point is this wouldn't have happened on my old 600 or an even lower powered bike. It's very easy to get into trouble very quickly on a more powerful bike, and that's what makes them unsuitable for inexperienced riders.

 

[XBD]

:facepalm well obviously a bigger bike is easier to fuck up, and obviously less forgiving, and obviously you should have more experience beforehand, and obviously easier to spin tires, and obviously easier to get into an "oh fuck" moment, and obviously harder to get yourself out of said "oh fuck" moment safely, and obviously not a beginners bike, and obviously etc etc..

This is all common sense, I don't see how there is still a discussion to be had about it.

But, that said, a factor that can't really be measured and is never talked about: Some people have a natural ability on two wheels, understand how a clutch works and how to safely work it, natural two-wheel balance, natural emergency focus and control, natural realization of what will happen if you go try to be a hooligan and how dangerous these bikes really are... while some people look like super uncomfortable retards learning how to ride, who have never used a clutch before and can't balance worth shit. (I'm speaking from my MSF class, 90% of the people there I would NEVER suggest riding a crotch rocket, but there were a couple that had that natural riding ability who could probably learn just fine as long as their heads are in the right place.)

It's more than just cc's.

I feel like if you've got to join a forum and ask if you should start on a 600, you're not ready.

But at the end of the day, to each his/her own, there are always going to be dumb fucks on the streets, both in cars and on bikes.

Ride defensive as hell :cheers

 

[Just_Nick]

:facepalm well obviously a bigger bike is easier to fuck up, and obviously less forgiving, and obviously you should have more experience beforehand, and obviously easier to spin tires, and obviously easier to get into an "oh fuck" moment, and obviously harder to get yourself out of said "oh fuck" moment safely, and obviously not a beginners bike, and obviously etc etc..

This is all common sense, I don't see how there is still a discussion to be had about it.

But, that said, a factor that can't really be measured and is never talked about: Some people have a natural ability on two wheels, understand how a clutch works and how to safely work it, natural two-wheel balance, natural emergency focus and control, natural realization of what will happen if you go try to be a hooligan and how dangerous these bikes really are... while some people look like super uncomfortable retards learning how to ride, who have never used a clutch before and can't balance worth shit. (I'm speaking from my MSF class, 90% of the people there I would NEVER suggest riding a crotch rocket, but there were a couple that had that natural riding ability who could probably learn just fine as long as their heads are in the right place.)

I started on a brand new GSX-R 750 and don't regret it at all. But two-wheels and fast (manual) cars have been my life, so putting them together was not rocket science for me. It's more than just cc's.

I feel like if you've got to join a forum and ask if you should start on a 600, you're not ready.

But at the end of the day, to each his/her own, there are always going to be dumb fucks on the streets, both in cars and on bikes.

Ride defensive as hell :cheers

*Looks at riding form, notes that XBD certainly doesn't have the innate riding talent.* :lmao

 

[tatersalad314]

:facepalm well obviously a bigger bike is easier to fuck up, and obviously less forgiving, and obviously you should have more experience beforehand, and obviously easier to spin tires, and obviously easier to get into an "oh fuck" moment, and obviously harder to get yourself out of said "oh fuck" moment safely, and obviously not a beginners bike, and obviously etc etc..

This is all common sense, I don't see how there is still a discussion to be had about it.

But, that said, a factor that can't really be measured and is never talked about: Some people have a natural ability on two wheels, understand how a clutch works and how to safely work it, natural two-wheel balance, natural emergency focus and control, natural realization of what will happen if you go try to be a hooligan and how dangerous these bikes really are... while some people look like super uncomfortable retards learning how to ride, who have never used a clutch before and can't balance worth shit. (I'm speaking from my MSF class, 90% of the people there I would NEVER suggest riding a crotch rocket, but there were a couple that had that natural riding ability who could probably learn just fine as long as their heads are in the right place.)

I started on a brand new GSX-R 750 and don't regret it at all. But two-wheels and fast (manual) cars have been my life, so putting them together was not rocket science for me. It's more than just cc's.

I feel like if you've got to join a forum and ask if you should start on a 600, you're not ready.

But at the end of the day, to each his/her own, there are always going to be dumb fucks on the streets, both in cars and on bikes.

Ride defensive as hell :cheers

No one, XBD, no one cares if you have "car driving experience". You clearly don't comprehend the concept of why everyone needs to spend time on smaller, beginner friendly bikes. I rode around for a couple of thousand miles on my 600 that I bought out of ignorance and thought it would be fine because of the poor advice you just gave above. It doesn't matter how much driving experience you have, we all come into riding brand new.

That was a very slow learning curve on my 600. I then spent borrowed my friend's 300 for several months after receiving the guidance from this site. That was by far the best thing I've ever done for my riding experience. Can you learn on a supersport? Yes. How long will it take you to become a competent rider? A lot longer than it would on a smaller bike. The learning curve is most certainly changed when you hop onto a supersport. I know. I've been there.

Lets also consider the other aspect of riding instead of focusing on power - it's stopping. The amount of braking power on these bikes is enormous in comparison. The calipers are bigger (not to mention there are now two) which now increases the likely hood of locking the front tire and dumping your bike and potentially getting run over since you are now sliding down the road. On a small bike? This is still possible, but more difficult to do. Smaller bikes are not only forgiving because their lack of power, but braking ability. The first time you panic brake on your SS will more than likely result in locking the front tire, just out of inexperience.

You asked why this conversation still has to be discussed. Because people like you post your "superior" thoughts on the subject, which are extremely flawed.

To anyone reading this, please do not follow in his footsteps. As a new rider who has been there and done that, I confess that starting small IS the way to go for the stated reasons above. You'll have the rest of your life to collect motorcycles and get bigger, faster rides. If you start on a SS, you might make it, but the chances of you cutting your life short are much, much more likely.

 

[XBD]

I don't claim to be superior, nor do I feel like everyone starts in the same category.

Some people were born with the instinct to ride on two, some people weren't and have to try to force it.

And I don't care what you say, growing up driving fast, manual cars definitely helps with clutch control and overall focus on a fast bike. (compared to someone who did not grow up driving fast or stick)

Mods: feel free to delete my previous comment if you want this thread un-tainted, this is probably the alcohol ranting anyways. Happy St. Patricks Day :cheers

 

[Todd_Sails]

No one, XBD, no one cares if you have "car driving experience". You clearly don't comprehend the concept of why everyone needs to spend time on smaller, beginner friendly bikes. I rode around for a couple of thousand miles on my 600 that I bought out of ignorance and thought it would be fine because of the poor advice you just gave above. It doesn't matter how much driving experience you have, we all come into riding brand new.

That was a very slow learning curve on my 600. I then spent borrowed my friend's 300 for several months after receiving the guidance from this site. That was by far the best thing I've ever done for my riding experience. Can you learn on a supersport? Yes. How long will it take you to become a competent rider? A lot longer than it would on a smaller bike. The learning curve is most certainly changed when you hop onto a supersport. I know. I've been there.

Lets also consider the other aspect of riding instead of focusing on power - it's stopping. The amount of braking power on these bikes is enormous in comparison. The calipers are bigger (not to mention there are now two) which now increases the likely hood of locking the front tire and dumping your bike and potentially getting run over since you are now sliding down the road. On a small bike? This is still possible, but more difficult to do. Smaller bikes are not only forgiving because their lack of power, but braking ability. The first time you panic brake on your SS will more than likely result in locking the front tire, just out of inexperience.

You asked why this conversation still has to be discussed. Because people like you post your "superior" thoughts on the subject, which are extremely flawed.

To anyone reading this, please do not follow in his footsteps. As a new rider who has been there and done that, I confess that starting small IS the way to go for the stated reasons above. You'll have the rest of your life to collect motorcycles and get bigger, faster rides. If you start on a SS, you might make it, but the chances of you cutting your life short are much, much more likely.

OK, right, don't worry, I agree.:fact
That's why (without even knowing, I just wanted to ride a Motorized bike) I started around 8 yrs old, on Tecumsah mini bikes- my first was a Rupp Roadster- had a 2 speed torque converter, spoked wheels, front and rear brakes, and almost worthless shock suspension front and rear! It would do about 50mph on paved/flat roads! We had a track hearby- freebie, and I'd do jumps, little powerslides;What a fun bike that was- then I jumped right to my LiterBike!!-- J/K!
There were many bikes (motorized and pedal), inbetween though. :woot

 

[tatersalad314]

I don't claim to be superior, nor do I feel like everyone starts in the same category.

Some people were born with the instinct to ride on two, some people weren't and have to try to force it.

And I don't care what you say, growing up driving fast, manual cars definitely helps with clutch control and overall focus on a fast bike. (compared to someone who did not grow up driving fast or stick)

Mods: feel free to delete my previous comment if you want this thread un-tainted, this is probably the alcohol ranting anyways. Happy St. Patricks Day :cheers

Way to address any of the points I made :thumbup Your ONLY argument is about natural ability which applies to all things, not just riding motorcycles, and how previous experience with clutches gives can help out with the learning curve. I agree with these two stances, but by no means is that grounds to recommend that someone start on a SS.

So next time you want to throw your opinion out there, be prepared to defend it. The little cop out of "I don't care what you say" demonstrates your inability to support your position.

Also, mods delete/modify posts that are against GDC rules. They don't delete/modify posts that are ignorant. Those are plentiful around here

 

[tatersalad314]

OK, right, don't worry, I agree.:fact
That's why (without even knowing, I just wanted to ride a Motorized bike) I started around 8 yrs old, on Tecumsah mini bikes- my first was a Rupp Roadster- had a 2 speed torque converter, spoked wheels, front and rear brakes, and almost worthless shock suspension front and rear! It would do about 50mph on paved/flat roads! We had a track hearby- freebie, and I'd do jumps, little powerslides;What a fun bike that was- then I jumped right to my LiterBike!!-- J/K!
There were many bikes (motorized and pedal), inbetween though. :woot

I'm jealous of those who have been riding their whole lives. It wasn't until recently that I was able to jump into the sport. I've wanted to my whole life, but the parents certainly didn't support so much as a dirt bike!

Truth be told, I'm going to be picking up a 300 this fall/winter. I greatly miss riding that thing around. I'll probably tool around on the streets for a while, but it will more than likely find its' home on the track also :lol

 

[springfall2008]

I don't claim to be superior, nor do I feel like everyone starts in the same category.

Some people were born with the instinct to ride on two, some people weren't and have to try to force it.

And I don't care what you say, growing up driving fast, manual cars definitely helps with clutch control and overall focus on a fast bike. (compared to someone who did not grow up driving fast or stick)

It's true with everything in life, some people will have more natural ability than others. The problem is people don't know if they are better than average or not, case in point when you ask 100 drivers if they think they are worse, average or better than average drivers around 70% of them think they are better than average - they can't all be right! A lot of people think they are better than average because they haven't crashed yet, but they might also be luckly - I mean some people smoke 100 a day and don't get lung cancer, that doesn't mean smoking is safe either.

Now telling others that you will be fine starting on a bigger bike if you happen to be a better than average rider is very dangerous because many people will think they are when really they aren't.

Does car clutch control help with bike clutch control? Yes I'm sure it does a little, just like playing cricket might well help you to play baseball, but it won't make you an instant champion either.

 

[XBD]

Way to address any of the points I made :thumbup Your ONLY argument is about natural ability which applies to all things, not just riding motorcycles, and how previous experience with clutches gives can help out with the learning curve. I agree with these two stances, but by no means is that grounds to recommend that someone start on a SS.

So next time you want to throw your opinion out there, be prepared to defend it. The little cop out of "I don't care what you say" demonstrates your inability to support your position.

Also, mods delete/modify posts that are against GDC rules. They don't delete/modify posts that are ignorant. Those are plentiful around here

That's because I agree with the other portions of your comment:

Yes, these bikes brake hard and you can lock the front brake up easily. They are designed as race bikes, then have lights and mirrors stuck on.

Yes, starting on a smaller bike will give you an advantage on the learning curve and overall lead to becoming a better rider.

Yes, the advice given is sound and there are hundreds of posts reiterating that. I'm not saying you guys/girls are wrong.

I was just expanding on the fact that natural instinct/abilities get completely left out of the equation on this topic, which is probably because there is no way of actually knowing or measuring them..but that doesn't mean they aren't a legitimate factor.

:cheers

 

[tatersalad314]

That's because I agree with the other portions of your comment:

Yes, these bikes brake hard and you can lock the front brake up easily. They are designed as race bikes, then have lights and mirrors stuck on.

Yes, starting on a smaller bike will give you an advantage on the learning curve and overall lead to becoming a better rider.

Yes, the advice given is sound and there are hundreds of posts reiterating that. I'm not saying you guys/girls are wrong.

I was just expanding on the fact that natural instinct/abilities get completely left out of the equation on this topic, which is probably because there is no way of actually knowing or measuring them..but that doesn't mean they aren't a legitimate factor.

:cheers

Then why didn't you acknowledge that before?

While I those are factors, they aren't the most important. Every aspect of riding a motorcycle needs to be developed. You might have the capability to take off from a stop light or even accelerate to 150mph, but you don't ride on an empty runway. There are corners to worry about, cagers doing their own thing, road conditions, and many more things other than clutch control.

I understand what you're saying, I really do. But since that is also applicable to other areas in life, let me give an example.

Lets say I wanted to become a fighter. I have been told or perceive myself as having a natural ability to fight. Maybe I'm really good at boxing but have absolutely no experience in any of the other areas of martial arts. I then hop into the octagon against another fighter who requires me to be capable in all areas of martial areas (like @oldfart01 ) and get my ass reamed. Literally. It's important to understand that those two factors alone don't justify a person to start on a SS. What if someone comes along who wants to ride a motorcycle reads that and automatically assumes that have this "natural ability" when in reality, they really don't?

A more simplistic answer may be that by comparison to the other factors involved in riding a motorcycle is that the ones your brought up are insignificant. Almost anyone can learn how to ride a motorcycle and have a firm grasp a clutch control. But natural ability and comprehension will never replace experience.

 

[XBD]

You literally could have responded with: "Natural ability is weighted so low compared to experience, as well as the obvious skew that everyone feels like they are better than they actually are, that we don't even consider it when dishing out advice to noobies."

And your point would have been made and we could move on like normal adults. Your attitude and subtle insults aren't needed. Unless I came off as an immature kid at first, then that's how you have to respond sometimes.

But I've crept around here for long enough to expect it.. plus it is the internet. :lol

 

[cainyboy]

Not the fast cars and bikes shit again:facepalm

 

[cainyboy]

You literally could have responded with: "Natural ability is weighted so low compared to experience, as well as the obvious skew that everyone feels like they are better than they actually are, that we don't even consider it when dishing out advice to noobies."

And your point would have been made and we could move on like normal adults. Your attitude and subtle insults aren't needed. Unless I came off as an immature kid at first, then that's how you have to respond sometimes.

But I've crept around here for long enough to expect it.. plus it is the internet. :lol

So natural ability is the key?

So lets work with just that, name one top tier rider(domestic or whatever) that didn't work up from smaller CC bike to bigger and relied on just natural talent.

You will find none and these guys exemplify your 'natural talent' theory.

Street riding is no different, you just never see the 'oh, so getting a SS bike was mistake' threads.

 

[Samantha750]

Some people were born with the instinct to ride on two, some people weren't and have to try to force it

Here, natural ability accounts for 000.000%. So tell me oh great swammy, what is/where on this "natural ability" scale do I fall? You've never ridden with me or seen me ride, so am I a natural or am I forcing it? Am I even a good rider or just lucky? You don't know me, never met me so what would you know of my riding ability or natural ability? Here, we play it safe and regardless of natural ability, starting small is good advice.