[mazzla]

I've got virgin knee sliders, but the tyres are scrubbed in all the way - I just don't get the body positioning for knee dragging although my times on the track seem to be consistent with my mates' that go through a pair of sliders in a day of riding. They claim to use it as a measure of how much tyre wall they have left, so there's never any danger of running out of rubber. Surface condition is always a factor on public roads though, but there's not that much one can do about that.

 

[Anthony D]

I've got virgin knee sliders, but the tyres are scrubbed in all the way - I just don't get the body positioning for knee dragging although my times on the track seem to be consistent with my mates' that go through a pair of sliders in a day of riding. They claim to use it as a measure of how much tyre wall they have left, so there's never any danger of running out of rubber. Surface condition is always a factor on public roads though, but there's not that much one can do about that.

This means that you are a lot closer to lowsiding than your friends are, because they are using less lean angle for the given speeds.

Hang off more, and use less lean, and you will be good to go, and get faster.

 

[TOEJAM]

@TOEJAM
I understand that we're going off subject now but given the chance , what's your opinion on Michelin power supersport EVOs for track days ? They are listed as 50/50 road/track tires

I have no clue to be honest, I have never ran them and don't know anything about them.

I was sponsored by Michelin a few years ago (the first year the Cups came out) and ran them, but that is my only experience with any of their tires.

 

[TOEJAM]

This means that you are a lot closer to lowsiding than your friends are, because they are using less lean angle for the given speeds.

Hang off more, and use less lean, and you will be good to go, and get faster.

That.

 

[Chad Dixon]

Indeed. I definitely understand that carrying more corner speed is going to allow one to put in more lean. However my initial intention for making this thread was to find out if lean can be added at any point throughout the turn. But then you pros come in and all sorts of questions come to mind as we circle around the topic that I want to bring up. Can't thank you guys enough for the clarifications. Hopefully some day (maybe this Fall) I could come to a track and get coaching/following done by you if you have time. Would much rather pay a racer such as yourself than go the CSS...although I would love to experience Code's coaches too.

And yes. I do know that lean angle is finite, subjective to your speed. I like to think I can feel this break point fairly well.

One thing I think about in teaching myself, is that if I can learn to get extreme lean angle (dragging or close) at low speeds, my apprehensiveness to lean further at fast speeds will be that much less and more confident to pick a faster line. I mean guys can get max lean angle on some slow rolling hairpins...


One more question to touch back on the subject of tires...would you suggest I (or any track day rider) start running slicks for track days? I run in the intermediate group at the "local track" and I have run street tires each time I have gone. Even if I'm not running WSBK pace, wouldn't running slicks enable me to push the envelope a bit more to get better; have a bit more confidence in the back of your mind knowing that you're running on a track oriented tire...?

However my initial intention for making this thread was to find out if lean can be added at any point throughout the turn.


I watched a YouTube vid over the 4th that helped a bunch. I know, Youtube? Really, however it helped and it actually saved my bacon that weekend.

In a nutshell it was implied that if you're committed and discover that your running wide an alternative to touching the brake lever is dipping the inboard shoulder.

Well it worked. For me at least. I caught myself looking 20' in front of the bike and I was headed right where the eyeballs were looking, which was not where I wanted to be. I did two things to correct it. Picked my head up and threw the right shoulder down as far as I could.

Everything changed in that split second and I learned something. I've been using it since and can feel the ceiling being raised on a progressive level now. The wall is starting to come down. Slowly, but at least its moving now where's before I just could not bring myself to push any harder.

That's been my experience anyway.

 

[TOEJAM]

Dude, nothing wrong with watching YouTube videos. I will watch them to help me learn new tracks.

In the Speed Academy, we used to teach something called the "head drop" (especially on corner exits, so you can get the bike upright and on the gas harder...and to trick bikes with IMU based Traction Control to give you more power because you are reducing the lean angle of the bike). We also used to teach keeping the inside arm bent and relaxed. Both of those things help the bike turn. Look through the turn, relax the inside arm, drop the head and upper body, and the bike will turn easier/better.

 

[C. Chaos]

However my initial intention for making this thread was to find out if lean can be added at any point throughout the turn.


I watched a YouTube vid over the 4th that helped a bunch. I know, Youtube? Really, however it helped and it actually saved my bacon that weekend.

In a nutshell it was implied that if you're committed and discover that your running wide an alternative to touching the brake lever is dipping the inboard shoulder.

Well it worked. For me at least. I caught myself looking 20' in front of the bike and I was headed right where the eyeballs were looking, which was not where I wanted to be. I did two things to correct it. Picked my head up and threw the right shoulder down as far as I could.

Everything changed in that split second and I learned something. I've been using it since and can feel the ceiling being raised on a progressive level now. The wall is starting to come down. Slowly, but at least its moving now where's before I just could not bring myself to push any harder.

That's been my experience anyway.

Interesting notion you bring up. I've gone wide a handful of times out on the mountain roads, but have always been able to correct myself...however, I have never thought about how I got out of my potential "going highs" until you said something. I always slow down and counter-steer my way back to my line. But since you mention dropping the inside shoulder technique it makes perfect since as to why I have to slow down and counter-steering makes you feel like you're driving a boat. It's really "fighty" and almost feels like the g-force is working against you pushing you to to the outside.

The next time this ever happens, I'm going burn this into my mind, and I'm going to dip inside hard with shoulder and head.

The direct answer to your initial/primary question is "yes, you can add lean at any time".

Just be aware that adding lean angle (without increasing speed), will cause your line to tighten. In other words, if you are carrying a constant speed and sufficiently making it around the corner, then add more lean angle, you could run off the inside of the corner. But yes, if you are into a corner and see you are going to run wide, then you can either reduce your speed or add more lean angle.

As far as tires, that is a tough question. You will get tons of different answers, it all depends on who you talk to.

There is a HUGE variance of speed in the Intermediate group. Some guys are running almost an Adv pace, some guys are barely above a Nov pace. There can be as much as a 20 sec different in lap times in the Int group. So it is really hard to make any suggestions based upon group placement. In order to give good feedback, you would have to provide some lap times compared to race lap times at the same track.

With that being said, I know for a fact that Q3's are capable of handling a race pace. I have seen someone turn laps fast enough to win races on Q3's. The only issue is that they wont handle that pace for race distance, they will overheat.

Something else to keep in mind is that it takes a good bit of carcass stress/flex to keep heat in race Slicks. And to be honest, that means most Intermediate riders won't ride hard/fast enough to keep adequate heat in race Slicks. Which means that most Int riders will actually have MORE grip with something like a Q3.

Then of course there is the flip side, most Int riders won't be asking for ultimate performance out of a race Slick because of the reduced pace...which means they can get away without the Slicks being at optimal temps.

You might want to look at something like these. The are classified as "Track Day Slicks". They are Slicks (no grooves), so they will provide a little more grip, but they aren't a true race tire so they will heat up faster and aren't as stiff (meaning they don't have to be worked as hard to maintain heat). They are basically an "in between" tire for somebody who might be going faster than what street tires are good for, but who isn't quite ready for a full blown race Slick.
Pirelli Diablo Superbike Pro Rear Tires - Sportbike Track Gear

Well I'll be damned..."faux slicks!" I never knew this types of tires were out there. Granted I'm still new since just starting to ride last Spring, but that's a damn good idea. After I run these Supercorsas down on the next track day I will surly try some of those Diablos out.

I know I mentioned Q3's, but I'm a Bridgestone loyalist now for street tires. After my S20's that I am on right now, I have a set of S21's to replace them. I like the S20's over the Q3's for the street. They seem to be lasting several hundred more miles and they seem to give more feedback in the corners, especially the exits.

 

[TOEJAM]

I know I mentioned Q3's, but I'm a Bridgestone loyalist now for street tires. After my S20's that I am on right now, I have a set of S21's to replace them. I like the S20's over the Q3's for the street. They seem to be lasting several hundred more miles and they seem to give more feedback in the corners, especially the exits.

Not a dig, honest question...if you just started last spring, how can you be a loyalist for anything?

How many different tires have you tried?

When you did try different tires, did you play with air pressure and suspension setup?

You (read: anybody) can't throw on different tires, run them, then ascertain if they are better or worse. When it comes to grip, longevity, feel, etc...different tires often require different setups to get the most out of them.

FWIW - I have raced on Bridgestone, Michelin, Continental, Dunlop, and Pirelli...usually Slicks and DOTs from each brand. I spent years trying all of them while working with a suspension guy, before ultimately finding what truly works for me and what I truly love.

 

[tatersalad314]

Really want to try out the different DOT tires, but can't justify switching over until I'm riding over the Q3s abilities. Plus it keeps the costs down a little longer :biggrin

 

[Anthony D]

Yup, stay on streets as long as you can. Once the streets start to get greasy on a consistent basis, or you start spinning up on corner exits, or pushing the front a bit on entry, time to step up to some DOT race tires.

 

[C. Chaos]

Not a dig, honest question...if you just started last spring, how can you be a loyalist for anything?

How many different tires have you tried?

When you did try different tires, did you play with air pressure and suspension setup?

You (read: anybody) can't throw on different tires, run them, then ascertain if they are better or worse. When it comes to grip, longevity, feel, etc...different tires often require different setups to get the most out of them.

FWIW - I have raced on Bridgestone, Michelin, Continental, Dunlop, and Pirelli...usually Slicks and DOTs from each brand. I spent years trying all of them while working with a suspension guy, before ultimately finding what truly works for me and what I truly love.

Maybe I used the word "loyal" a bit liberally...

After trying Dunlops (Q3s, two sets), PP3's (two sets), Supercorsas and now the S20's and next S21's, I like the Bridgestones best and foresee myself buying them for my street tires from now on.

Actually, I like the Supercorsasa best, but as for longevity for street riding, I only use them for the track...or will use, however, next time I get on as I took 'em off to preserve them. The roads I usually ride on don't have the best surfaces so they tend to get eaten up rather quick.

I did play with pressures with each set, but not suspension. If I was a dedicated racer or had more time to delve into messing with different setups believe me, I would. I've also been through three different bikes (GSXR, R6, CBR) and about to be a forth when I get rid of my CBR to get another GSXR.

 

[mazzla]

This means that you are a lot closer to lowsiding than your friends are, because they are using less lean angle for the given speeds.

Hang off more, and use less lean, and you will be good to go, and get faster.

for sure - I know I have a LONG way to go wrt body positioning

 

[ErnieM]

I normally fully agree with everything you say, but I have to somewhat disagree with this, at least as it refers to the high performance tires we use.

There is actually more tire on the ground when we are leaned over, due to the round (almost oval) profile of the tire and the forces on the tire "flattening" it out. It isn't so much that we have less tire on the ground, it is more in the centripetal forces and lateral acceleration acting on the tire, while the CoG is in more of a vertical plane. The tires are literally trying to shoot out from under the motorcycle all the time...it is only the coefficient of friction that keeps them underneath us.

The announcers were talking about it recently in one of the WSS or WSBK races I watched. One of the announcers made a comment about how a rider needs to "stand the bike up on the fat part of the tire" to get on the gas (which we all know is a common saying). The other announcer corrected him and was like "technically, he is on the fat part of the tire when he is leaned over...he just needs to get the bike more vertical so the tires are directly under him rather than out to the side".

The other announcer laughed, because he knew the guy was just trying to sound smart and poking fun at him. Everyone knows what it means when we say "up on the fat part of the tire". We basically just mean to reduce the lean angle so the forces are acting directly down into the pavement, rather than going sideways.

Yes, I am this bored this morning.

Correct and not. The contact patch is larger at mild lean angle. When you lean to the edge of the tire ( as Jorge Lorenzo does so much) it simply stops right there. Maximum lean is maximum vulnerability. When fully leaned over you are at the very limits of traction.

Lean angle is not your friend. It's something you do to get through the corner. The more speed you carry for the same line, the more lean angle you will use.

The main problem with changing lean angle IN a corner is that every motion you make on a bike is reflected by the bike. It upsets it. It may be an upset you want, but moving around midcorner is not something to do except when needed.

 

[Johnny 1]

Check out my bro on the street ..sick

 

[MacBayne]

Three-year revival to show how squidly your family is. Nice. :thumbsup

 

[Johnny 1]

Since english is NOT my first language,I didn't understand exactly what you ment by this ? :scratch

...but it just doesn't sound right :lol:

 

[Johnny 1]

Oh shit,I got it now ..I replied on 3 yo post :facepalm

AnywayZ...I've got 10 posts now ,ta very much :bounce








btw..I had a lot of sport bikes over the years (which means I was a member of many forums related to my current bikes),but only here I encountered insolence instantly as soon as I registered ..
It's a record ! >

It's not that I care,just sayin' :biggrin

:squid

 

[8you4t]

Welcome to GDC ... where thin skin + flaming don’t mix

 

[spike52]

Welcome to GDC ... where thin skin + flaming don’t mix /forums/images/smilies/smiley_wink.gif

Where's the viking with the standard "butthurt" meme?? :spit

 

[MacBayne]

only here I encountered insolence instantly as soon as I registered

Ride like a moron- get treated like a moron.