Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com banner

41 - 60 of 70 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter #41
Cool! Looks better for sure but let's look a little deeper into what is going on. You say that you weren't getting good placement at the apex and that you were inconsistent but that you were looking at the apex, so here is my question. WHEN are you looking at the apex? Are you looking at the same time you are turning the bike? Are you looking slightly before? When do you think would be the ideal time to LOOK at the apex and then how long should you be looking at it before moving to the next reference point?
So, Misti, I guess you're saying that we need to train our eyes to move--not only from one marker to the next--but at a certain time before we arrive at the marker. What I do...and I think what you're saying...is that you look at marker A and look away towards marker B before you arrive at marker A. In other words, don't look yourself all the way in to marker A. Right? There are two reasons for this. (1) You really NEED to be paying attention down the track so you don't have a problem, and (2) as you look at things closer to yourself, they seem to go by a lot faster. Looking down at the track next to your front tire is a good example (we'd never do it, of course). The world is whizzing by and this can be scary, and you're not looking down the track to see what's next. So...train the eyes.
Dont think I could have explained it better if I tried. I'd agree with everything Superbike Racer said. It's what I try to do but I'm not always consistent at it. I try to be set and looking in prior to turn in. Then when I know I'm going to hit my apex, transition my eyes to my eyes ahead and use my peripheral vision for what's close to me.

I can feel it when I stare at the apex too long and I overslow my corner entry because of it. And I can also feel the difference when I transition my eyes properly and everything feels smoother even though I'm moving faster. I feel like I need to keep improving my consistency on my skills (eyes, bike placement). I've gotten better but I still have soooooo much room for improvement
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
So, Misti, I guess you're saying that we need to train our eyes to move--not only from one marker to the next--but at a certain time before we arrive at the marker. What I do...and I think what you're saying...is that you look at marker A and look away towards marker B before you arrive at marker A. In other words, don't look yourself all the way in to marker A. Right? There are two reasons for this. (1) You really NEED to be paying attention down the track so you don't have a problem, and (2) as you look at things closer to yourself, they seem to go by a lot faster. Looking down at the track next to your front tire is a good example (we'd never do it, of course). The world is whizzing by and this can be scary, and you're not looking down the track to see what's next. So...train the eyes.
YES!!! THIS!!! Exactly!!!

Dont think I could have explained it better if I tried. I'd agree with everything Superbike Racer said. It's what I try to do but I'm not always consistent at it. I try to be set and looking in prior to turn in. Then when I know I'm going to hit my apex, transition my eyes to my eyes ahead and use my peripheral vision for what's close to me.

I can feel it when I stare at the apex too long and I overslow my corner entry because of it. And I can also feel the difference when I transition my eyes properly and everything feels smoother even though I'm moving faster. I feel like I need to keep improving my consistency on my skills (eyes, bike placement). I've gotten better but I still have soooooo much room for improvement
Awesome. Ok. I'm so happy with the above explanation by Superbike Racer and Lopitt85's agreement on it. LOVE IT!!! So yes, we need to train our eyes not only to look at the right place on the track but at the right TIME. Step one would be to have really specific reference points for you to look at and step two would be to get the timing of the look in correct.

We were originally talking about how to get more consistent with hitting the apexes, so, step one would be to have a precise reference point at the apex to look at and step two would be to nail down the timing.

So, when should you be looking at the apex? Y'all touched on it a bit....most people tend to look and turn at the same time but when you do that how much information do you actually have about the corner and where you want to be? Not much right? So if you aren't looking and turning at the same time, when area you looking at a the apex?

:banana:banana:banana
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter #43
What I try to do is look at my corner first, seeing where I want to go. Then set my body up while keeping my eyes on the apex. Then, just like I do with my reference point for turn in, I try to move my eyes to my next reference point when I know I'm on track to hit my apex, and avoid looking at the apex too long.

It's a big difference in feel when I get it right vs when I get it wrong.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
What I try to do is look at my corner first, seeing where I want to go. Then set my body up while keeping my eyes on the apex. Then, just like I do with my reference point for turn in, I try to move my eyes to my next reference point when I know I'm on track to hit my apex, and avoid looking at the apex too long.

It's a big difference in feel when I get it right vs when I get it wrong.
Could it make a difference if you moved your body and had it set up BEFORE you got close to your turn in point and THEN looked for the apex?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
213 Posts
What I try to do is look at my corner first, seeing where I want to go. Then set my body up while keeping my eyes on the apex. Then, just like I do with my reference point for turn in, I try to move my eyes to my next reference point when I know I'm on track to hit my apex, and avoid looking at the apex too long.

It's a big difference in feel when I get it right vs when I get it wrong.
Here's the sequence:
1. Get your butt off the seat
2. Brake
3. Downshift
4. Tip into corner

You should almost never have your butt in the middle of the seat--only on long straights. Most of the time, you should move your butt from one side to the other, skipping the middle altogether.

AND, keep your weight on the balls of your feet--keep your weight off the seat and off the handlebars. As much as you can, use your legs to unweight your body when moving side-to-side.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Here's the sequence:
1. Get your butt off the seat
2. Brake
3. Downshift
4. Tip into corner

You should almost never have your butt in the middle of the seat--only on long straights. Most of the time, you should move your butt from one side to the other, skipping the middle altogether.

AND, keep your weight on the balls of your feet--keep your weight off the seat and off the handlebars. As much as you can, use your legs to unweight your body when moving side-to-side.
Ok so where would you put LOOKING INTO THE CORNER in this sequence? We were talking about the timing of WHEN to look into the turn and spot your apex.

:grin2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Between 1 and 2. My first marker is my brake marker. I'm looking for this as early as possible. As soon as I can see it.
Ok cool and when you look into the apex do you turn the bike at the same time or is there a delay between when you look for your apex and when you actually begin turning the bike?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
213 Posts
Ok cool and when you look into the apex do you turn the bike at the same time or is there a delay between when you look for your apex and when you actually begin turning the bike?
Well, I'd damn well better be looking at the marker before I initiate the turn in. There'd better be a delay. These two things cannot happen in the same fraction of a second. To really break this down, I want to decide to turn in before I perform the action.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Well, I'd damn well better be looking at the marker before I initiate the turn in. There'd better be a delay. These two things cannot happen in the same fraction of a second. To really break this down, I want to decide to turn in before I perform the action.
Perfect!!! You'd be surprised at how many riders actually do look into the corner and turn their bikes at the same time! It's why we have an entire classroom seminar and on track lesson at the California Superbike School dedicated to breaking that habit. We call it the two-step and one of the main benefits is better accuracy and consistency with hitting the apex. It's pretty hard to be accurate and consistent when you aren't spotting where you want to be before turning in....its kind of like you're just turning the bike and "hoping" you make it close to the apex ;)

What else do you think separating these two actions, looking into the apex and actually turning the bike can help with?

:grin2::grin2:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
213 Posts
What else do you think separating these two actions, looking into the apex and actually turning the bike, can help with?

:grin2::grin2:
Well, bladder control for one. But seriously, I can look away from the turn-in point before I reach it (because I know where it is) and look at the apex sooner, then focus on the throttle. In other words, it frees up my attention to look towards the future, and the future is coming at me pretty damn fast.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Well, bladder control for one. But seriously, I can look away from the turn-in point before I reach it (because I know where it is) and look at the apex sooner, then focus on the throttle. In other words, it frees up my attention to look towards the future, and the future is coming at me pretty damn fast.
EXACTLY!!!! Hahahah, love it! T"he future is coming at me pretty damn fast!" (that could be some lyrics in a song :).

And by freeing up some of your attention you give yourself more TIME!!! It's amazing how much the perception of speed changes too when you do this. By looking into the turn sooner (before you actually turn the bike) your sense of speed diminishes and it doesn't seem like its coming up so damn fast....that means you can carry more entry speed into the turn! YAY!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter #53
I just caught up on this thread by reading the back and forth between the two of you, and it was definately helpful for me. Gave me some things that I want to practice at the next track day. I've been studying and practicing more, and have made some improvements. Putting together some video now of the last track day so that I can put it on YouTube and link it here. Please let me know what you guys see when you watch it.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
14,937 Posts
Lose the music if you can. We like to hear the bike around here and nothing else.

Anyway...you need to get more comfortable working your transmission at speed. There is absolutely NO need to be pulling in the clutch everytime you upshift. One less thing to think about. When you're on the gas, just preload the shifter back off the throttle a split second, then welcome yourself to the next gear. If you get it right then it'll damn near sound like you have a quick shifter installed.

Also, work on timing your rev matching while downshifting. You're downshifts are all over the place. You'll have to get a handle on both upshifting and downshifting if you intend to get better/faster. :thumbup
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter #56
Carnage, thx for the reply. I'll keep that in mind with the music. I like to hear it in the background behind the bike, just not overpowering it. So maybe I'll make one with and one without the music. 👍

On the shifting, I'd say I'm clutchless shifting 95% of the time. I agree with you on the clutch not being needed. Its faster and smoother in my limited experience. Was there something that sounded off about mine in the video?

The downshifting and blipping the throttle is definately a work in progress. I'm still getting more comfortable with it. What was it in particular that was off? Too late, too early, too slowly, too long between blip and clutch release? Sometimes it feels better than others, and sometimes I'll get into a groove where it feels perfect all session. I want to get better at this because I do want to get faster/smoother. And I dont just want to rely on my slipper clutch.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Ok, defiantly agree with Carnage about the up and downshifting. Other than that, on the front facing view, take a look at when you are turning your head to look into the corner. You mentioned that you overflowed for a corner.....now, if you are looking into the turn and turning the bike at the same time...how much information do you have about that corner? Not much right? If you looked into the turn BEFORE you turned the bike would you have more info? Would more information about the corner help you to carry more entry speed? What else could improve if you looked into the turn to gather more info BEFORE you actually turned the bike?

:thumbup
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
14,937 Posts
The downshifting and blipping the throttle is definately a work in progress. I'm still getting more comfortable with it. What was it in particular that was off? Too late, too early, too slowly, too long between blip and clutch release? Sometimes it feels better than others, and sometimes I'll get into a groove where it feels perfect all session. I want to get better at this because I do want to get faster/smoother. And I dont just want to rely on my slipper clutch.
Have you watched A Twist of the Wrist II over on youtube lately? There's a section on throttle blipping when downshifting where they go over it in detail with great visuals. It's almost impossible for me personally to explain it in text. Check it out and remember practice makes perfect. You'll need to get the shifts down all while braking at the same time. Before long, you'll forget you even have a slipper clutch. :thumbup
 

·
Dreaming of buttsecks for years...
Joined
·
13,373 Posts
A slipper is a safetynet, not a crutch. I've watched some youtube vids of guys on liter bikes going from full throttle, 160mph down the straight from 6th gear to third in about a second and a half. Kinda makes me jealous when I wheelhop it in to a corner thinking I'm going down to second and wind up in first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
133 Posts
Discussion Starter #60
Ok, defiantly agree with Carnage about the up and downshifting. Other than that, on the front facing view, take a look at when you are turning your head to look into the corner. You mentioned that you overflowed for a corner.....now, if you are looking into the turn and turning the bike at the same time...how much information do you have about that corner? Not much right? If you looked into the turn BEFORE you turned the bike would you have more info? Would more information about the corner help you to carry more entry speed? What else could improve if you looked into the turn to gather more info BEFORE you actually turned the bike?

/forums/images/smilies/thumbup.gif
I will continue to try and improve my shifting, up and down. I have been using the clutchless up-shifting almost exclusively but it sounds like my roll off/roll on may just be too slow to take full advantage if the clutchless up-shifting benefits. I'll practice being quicker. Also, as I continue to watch the video it sounds like I'm winding a little too high in the gear before shifting, so I'll work on that as well.

I will follow Carnage's advice and re-watch the throttle blipping section of twist of the wrist and continue to practice that. Maybe the next trackday I can spend the whole day working on up-shifting, down-shifting, and vision, and that's it.

Which leads me to vision. Misti, I watched that view facing me from the front and it looks like I'm not turning my head to look at the corner until I'm already turning in. Doing both at the same time is not good. It's something that you've mentioned to me before and it seems I need to refocus my attention there too.

I think I would have more info about the turn if I were looking in much earlier. It would help me decide what's the best line to take from where I am, to where I want to be. I think that would help me carry more corner roll speed because I would be more confident that I'm on the correct line. Also, when I look further ahead my sense of speed changes and it doesn't feel like I'm moving too fast, which should also help keep me from over slowing. And I would be able to see the exit better which should help me with getting on the gas sooner and more aggressively.

Sounds like I have my next set of things to work on over the next few trackdays.
 
41 - 60 of 70 Posts
About this Discussion
69 Replies
11 Participants
Misti Hurst
Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com
A forum community dedicated to the Suzuki GSX-R motorcycle. Discuss the GSX-R600, GSX-R750, GSX-R1000, and GSX-R1100, and more!
Full Forum Listing
Top