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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImI5cl0G2f8&t=540s

So here is a video I pieced together of several clips of the footage from different sessions at my May 13th trackday at MSRH. This is the first time I've ever posted anything to YouTube. It was a good day overall. On my very first session after the round robin I was turning right at diamonds edge (double apex) and looked left for no reason so off into the grass I went. I'll post that to YouTube and add a link to it as well.

I spent a lot of time in 3rd gear so you can see/hear the slower acceleration out of a lot of corners. Noticed that watching the videos with a buddy who is level 2. Instead being in 3rd/4th I should have been in 2nd/3rd more. Also noticed that at sugar and spice (after long front straight) sometimes I was on my mark hitting the apexes, but I also missed it pretty often, especially later in the day. Not out of control but just took bad lines sometimes and missed the apexes which made the turns longer than they should have been.

BP overall was pretty good. Was working on a slight change to my inside foot positioning. I dont think I'll need to hang off much more until I'm carrying more corner speed. What do you guys think? This was also my first trackday with my mirrors removed and it was much better. Cant wait to get some track bodywork on it. I also noticed that I'm still not comfortable pushing all the way to the edge of the track. Sometimes I did it, but I had to consciously make myself do it. And at the carousel (long left hander) I'm supposed to push the bike wide with the throttle but I did not feel comfortable doing it so tried to really focus on doing that on the last session. It was better but I was still wanting to hold steady throttle and steer out there when instead I should have held lean angle and pushed wide with the throttle. Any tips on getting more comfortable doing that? Any tips on anything that you see in the videos? What should I keep doing and what improvement areas do you see? Novice looking for help.
 

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I try to do what I mentioned before, but I'm sure I'm still making the rookie mistakes of looking too close or staying on the apex for too long. Just not as often, and probably making that mistake more often on the more difficult corners for me.

And I'd agree with you on my visual skills being different with someone in front of me making me look further ahead. The only thing that I can think of to help is maybe try not to follow them with my eyes when in following them in the turn. Try to keep my vision consistently on my reference points whether someone is in front of me or not? And just use my peripheral vision to watch out for other riders. If so that is gonna be a difficult task that is going to require a LOT of practice. I think years of having to use my peripheral vision in sports will help, but it's different on a bike. Other than that I'm at a loss as to what I can do to help. Maybe trailing an instructor and ask them to slowly pick up the pace and see what feels comfortable. 馃
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImI5cl0G2f8&t=540s

So here is a video I pieced together of several clips of the footage from different sessions at my May 13th trackday at MSRH. This is the first time I've ever posted anything to YouTube. It was a good day overall. On my very first session after the round robin I was turning right at diamonds edge (double apex) and looked left for no reason so off into the grass I went. I'll post that to YouTube and add a link to it as well.

I spent a lot of time in 3rd gear so you can see/hear the slower acceleration out of a lot of corners. Noticed that watching the videos with a buddy who is level 2. Instead being in 3rd/4th I should have been in 2nd/3rd more. Also noticed that at sugar and spice (after long front straight) sometimes I was on my mark hitting the apexes, but I also missed it pretty often, especially later in the day. Not out of control but just took bad lines sometimes and missed the apexes which made the turns longer than they should have been.

BP overall was pretty good. Was working on a slight change to my inside foot positioning. I dont think I'll need to hang off much more until I'm carrying more corner speed. What do you guys think? This was also my first trackday with my mirrors removed and it was much better. Cant wait to get some track bodywork on it. I also noticed that I'm still not comfortable pushing all the way to the edge of the track. Sometimes I did it, but I had to consciously make myself do it. And at the carousel (long left hander) I'm supposed to push the bike wide with the throttle but I did not feel comfortable doing it so tried to really focus on doing that on the last session. It was better but I was still wanting to hold steady throttle and steer out there when instead I should have held lean angle and pushed wide with the throttle. Any tips on getting more comfortable doing that? Any tips on anything that you see in the videos? What should I keep doing and what improvement areas do you see? Novice looking for help.
Ok, I didn't watch the whole thing but the first thing that jumped out at me was throttle control. At the California Superbike School the first exercise we do with students is throttle control and we do it in 4th gear no brakes for the purpose of really illustrating what a good smooth roll on can do for the stability of the motorcycle. Keith Code has a throttle control rule which states that once the throttle is cracked on it is rolled on smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn. There are a few exceptions to that rule but it can be followed pretty closely. In your video there are several places where the throttle isn't rolled on until you are almost all the way through the turn or it is rolled on and off or on and just held steady (without a roll on).

Because throttle control is such a fundamental skill, I would make this a focus for you to practice getting it correct as often as possible. Often times entry speed needs to be toned down slightly so that a smooth even roll on can be achieved and the outcome will be a faster corner speed overall and a better way of building on progress.

Can you see some examples of where your throttle control doesn't follow Keith's rule? What is the ultimate purpose of good throttle control? :smile:
 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
Misti thanks for the reply. I see what you mean about rolling on too late sometimes as well as not rolling it on continuously and smoothly. I've watched that video so many times I can hear Kieth Code saying it, lol.

I also posted this on another site and a comment over there brought to my attention that I was rolling on too late (just like you mentioned) as well as being overly slow with the roll on. I will also take your advice and try to keep from holding a neutral throttle as well.

When I'm working on my throttle control do you recommend I go back to doing the single gear drills or should I keep working between 2 gears like I've been doing lately.

To try and answer your question I'd guess that good throttle control would allow me to keep the bikes suspension settled and the tires loaded properly. And to let me stay on the best line. Also I'd say I was making one of those mistakes you mentioned at every turn except for 2 馃槹. At the 6:34 mark there is a sweeping right hand turn as im passing the stand that you see in the field. I feel like I consistently did a good job of rolling on the throttle at that turn. That took me down a long back straight into a right hand double apex that exits to a left. I feel like I did an ok job rolling on the throttle for that left but a bad job rolling on for the two right handers of the double apex that led into that left. So I REALLY need to work on my corner exit and my throttle control/roll on.
 

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Misti thanks for the reply. I see what you mean about rolling on too late sometimes as well as not rolling it on continuously and smoothly. I've watched that video so many times I can hear Kieth Code saying it, lol.

I also posted this on another site and a comment over there brought to my attention that I was rolling on too late (just like you mentioned) as well as being overly slow with the roll on. I will also take your advice and try to keep from holding a neutral throttle as well.

When I'm working on my throttle control do you recommend I go back to doing the single gear drills or should I keep working between 2 gears like I've been doing lately.

To try and answer your question I'd guess that good throttle control would allow me to keep the bikes suspension settled and the tires loaded properly. And to let me stay on the best line. Also I'd say I was making one of those mistakes you mentioned at every turn except for 2 馃槹. At the 6:34 mark there is a sweeping right hand turn as im passing the stand that you see in the field. I feel like I consistently did a good job of rolling on the throttle at that turn. That took me down a long back straight into a right hand double apex that exits to a left. I feel like I did an ok job rolling on the throttle for that left but a bad job rolling on for the two right handers of the double apex that led into that left. So I REALLY need to work on my corner exit and my throttle control/roll on.
Great. I'm glad you took some time to see the mistakes I was talking about and to think about and answer my questions.

I'd suggest doing one session with single gears, keeping the bike in 3rd or 4th for the entire session just to really get a feel for your throttle control. It's helpful to not have so many things to think about when working on improving a skill. Then go back to changing gears but keep working on throttle control.

Yes, good throttle control will keep the suspension in the correct range and provide optimal traction as well as help you maintain a predictable line. I did watch the video at the 6:34 mark and yes that turn has good tc and then it drops off again. What kinds of things are going to help you with getting better throttle control? Will it just be practicing and thinking about good throttle control or might other things affect when and how you can get on the gas? What about trying to do too many things right at turn in? Watch your video again and look closely at what you tend to do right before you turn the bike into a corner. Is there any way you could eliminate some of the extra "stuff" you are doing to help you have more attention available for perfecting throttle control?

:grin2::nerd:
 

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Discussion Starter #26 (Edited)
Great. I'm glad you took some time to see the mistakes I was talking about and to think about and answer my questions.

I'd suggest doing one session with single gears, keeping the bike in 3rd or 4th for the entire session just to really get a feel for your throttle control. It's helpful to not have so many things to think about when working on improving a skill. Then go back to changing gears but keep working on throttle control.

Yes, good throttle control will keep the suspension in the correct range and provide optimal traction as well as help you maintain a predictable line. I did watch the video at the 6:34 mark and yes that turn has good tc and then it drops off again. What kinds of things are going to help you with getting better throttle control? Will it just be practicing and thinking about good throttle control or might other things affect when and how you can get on the gas? What about trying to do too many things right at turn in? Watch your video again and look closely at what you tend to do right before you turn the bike into a corner. Is there any way you could eliminate some of the extra "stuff" you are doing to help you have more attention available for perfecting throttle control?

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I think one of the biggest things to help with my throttle control is my line I'm on. There were times where I wasnt on the line that I wanted to be on, so I couldn't get on the throttle like I wanted. I also think there is still a comfort issue with how it feels at turn-in.

I watched the video again quite a few times and felt like I couldn't find any habits right before I turned the bike in to the corner. The only thing that I thought I saw was maybe a habit of setting up for the curve by shifting my butt and moving my upper body over, but still dropping my upper body even more right at tip in. Maybe this unsettles the bike and makes it turn in faster than necessary, or the fact that I dont like the feeling makes me overslow for corners 馃. Is that what you saw?
 

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I think one of the biggest things to help with my throttle control is my line I'm on. There were times where I wasnt on the line that I wanted to be on, so I couldn't get on the throttle like I wanted. I also think there is still a comfort issue with how it feels at turn-in.

I watched the video again quite a few times and felt like I couldn't find any habits right before I turned the bike in to the corner. The only thing that I thought I saw was maybe a habit of setting up for the curve by shifting my butt and moving my upper body over, but still dropping my upper body even more right at tip in. Maybe this unsettles the bike and makes it turn in faster than necessary, or the fact that I dont like the feeling makes me overslow for corners 馃. Is that what you saw?
A good line is one that allows the throttle to be applied exactly by the rule :) Keith Code says that. Being on the right line will help for sure. Do you have references points for where you want to turn the bike? What happens if you turn in too early?

LOVE that you watched the video over again to see what you could determine with your riding and yes, exactly it has to do with how and WHEN you are moving your body over. Would it make a difference if you got your body position set up earlier? Would it help with overall stability if you didn't set up last minute and also make minor adjustments?

:thumbup:cheers
 

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+1 on throttle control; always follow the rule! I highly recommend spending a day at the track with California Superbike School. You will take away ten times more than from a regular trackday.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
A good line is one that allows the throttle to be applied exactly by the rule
Keith Code says that. Being on the right line will help for sure. Do you have references points for where you want to turn the bike? What happens if you turn in too early?

LOVE that you watched the video over again to see what you could determine with your riding and yes, exactly it has to do with how and WHEN you are moving your body over. Would it make a difference if you got your body position set up earlier? Would it help with overall stability if you didn't set up last minute and also make minor adjustments?

/forums/images/smilies/thumbup.gif/forums/images/smilies/cheers.gif
I'm doing a back to back on Aug 4th and 5th as MSRH and will definately be working on the line some more to nail it down. I do have my reference points for turn in, and will really focus on being consistent there too. I've noticed that if I turn in too early I'm really wide on my exit which doesn't feel good at all and makes me slow down even more, resulting in really poor drive on exit because of the poor throttle control. Im rolling off then back on when I should be smoothly/consistently rolling on.

With the bad habit of moving so late, I'm going to really focus on that as well. I know that I should be set well before turn in, which will make me and the bike more settled/stable. Im just failing to execute. So I will go back to the single gear drills like you mentioned and work on that as well. Taking away the downshifting and braking should let me really focus on setup and turn in.

I'll make a plan like I did last time on what I want to work on and in what order so that I'm not going in blind. I'll post it here again to get you guys' opinions and help finalize my plan.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
+1 on throttle control; always follow the rule! I highly recommend spending a day at the track with California Superbike School. You will take away ten times more than from a regular trackday.
I would love to attend the school but, unfortunately, due to work and $$$ it's not in the cards right now. So I'll keep hitting the track days for now. As soon as I can though I want to take your advice and attend the school. The time until then will hopefully allow me to be a little more capable as a rider before I go
 

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I'm doing a back to back on Aug 4th and 5th as MSRH and will definately be working on the line some more to nail it down. I do have my reference points for turn in, and will really focus on being consistent there too. I've noticed that if I turn in too early I'm really wide on my exit which doesn't feel good at all and makes me slow down even more, resulting in really poor drive on exit because of the poor throttle control. Im rolling off then back on when I should be smoothly/consistently rolling on.

With the bad habit of moving so late, I'm going to really focus on that as well. I know that I should be set well before turn in, which will make me and the bike more settled/stable. Im just failing to execute. So I will go back to the single gear drills like you mentioned and work on that as well. Taking away the downshifting and braking should let me really focus on setup and turn in.

I'll make a plan like I did last time on what I want to work on and in what order so that I'm not going in blind. I'll post it here again to get you guys' opinions and help finalize my plan.
How did it go? I'm curious to know if you made some improvements or not and I really like your plan of attack!
 

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Discussion Starter #33
I didnt realize how long it had been since I last logged in. I've been doing a lot of studying, reading, watching videos, etc... I've also been able to get some more track days in. The following two videos are of a trackday at Harris Hill Raceway (H2R) with Texas Motorcycle Academy. The guys there have helped me make some nice improvements in my riding. These are the front and rear camera views for the same session.

Front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1HsAml2ViQ

Rear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbqJmfBoj0
 

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Discussion Starter #34 (Edited)
I didnt realize how long it had been since I last logged in. I've been doing a lot of studying, reading, watching videos, etc... I've also been able to get some more track days in. The following two videos are of a trackday at Harris Hill Raceway (H2R) with Texas Motorcycle Academy. The guys there have helped me make some nice improvements in my riding. These are the front and rear camera views for the same session.

Front: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1HsAml2ViQ

Rear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbqJmfBoj0
 

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Novice looking for help.
Howdy. I think Misti's advice is bang-on. I would add to that a few things. First, I don't know if you are doing this or not, but lots of people drift into corners early, apex too early, and run wide because of the line they chose. Drifting to the outside of the track on the exit is fine as long as it's for the right reason. You want it to be because you're on the gas, and not because you apexed early and picked a bad line. So my 2 cent piece of advice is markers. Brake markers, turn-in markers. Look for them on the track. They may be cones, numbered signs, changes in surface, or whatever. The point is you want to have them accurate because when you adjust your line, you want the changes from the last lap to be small changes. Big, unexpected changes from the last lap can lead you OFF the track. Turn in or brake 20 feet later--not 50 feet later. Personally, I print out several copies of the track map and make notes after each session.

Here's a to a scene from The Hunt for Red October where they're blasting through undersea canyons in a huge sub with hyperaccurate maps (markers). One reason why some apex early is bad habits from public roads where you put the steering wheel/handlebars in one place and hold it there throughout the turn. As a result, riders who are nervous about the right turn-in/brake points will tend to drift in because the inner radius (curb) of the turn gives them a sense of security and safety. "I'll be okay if I just hug the inside curb." For the fast line, you want to stay wide as long as possible and apex as late as possible, and the only way to do this safely is with markers.

One more thing I'd like to mention is the order of events going into a turn:
1. Get your butt off the seat. (Basically, you should only have your butt centered on the seat on long straights.)
2. Brake.
3. Downshift.
4. Tip in.
5. Open throttle just before the apex (yes, before).
6. Roll on gas through exit.

 

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I didnt realize how long it had been since I last logged in. I've been doing a lot of studying, reading, watching videos, etc... I've also been able to get some more track days in. The following two videos are of a trackday at Harris Hill Raceway (H2R) with Texas Motorcycle Academy. The guys there have helped me make some nice improvements in my riding. These are the front and rear camera views for the same session.

Front: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1HsAml2ViQ

Rear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbqJmfBoj0
Hey! Ok I quickly watched the first front facing video and first of all I'd like to say that it sounds like your throttle control has gotten a lot better! But, I have a question. How close would you say you are getting to the apex of most of the corners? Are you getting as close to them as consistently as you would like? What exactly are you looking at as you turn the bike into the corner?
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Hey Misti. Thanks for the reply. I do feel like my throttle control is much better, and it's still a work in progress. 馃槈 .

Its funny that you mentioned how well I'm apexing. Its definately something that I am really trying to work on. So much so that it was my primary focus in the attached video. This was my very next track day after the one that you viewed in my last post. It's about two weeks later.

I felt like I wasnt getting good bike placement on my apexes, and I felt inconsistent on top of that. I felt it was my eyes. I was allowing myself to look at the apex too long, and sometimes I was letting my eyes come back to the apex after I had already transitioned to my next reference point. So I had to make myself practice improving both of those. I felt like it was improved in this video. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNLzCCqj8s&t=441s
 

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Discussion Starter #38 (Edited)
Here is a pic of the track. I'm going to see if I can print off a copy and draw the line I try to follow and post it up. There are a few corners where I try to go a little deeper into the corner before turn in.
 

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Hey Misti. Thanks for the reply. I do feel like my throttle control is much better, and it's still a work in progress. 馃槈 .

Its funny that you mentioned how well I'm apexing. Its definately something that I am really trying to work on. So much so that it was my primary focus in the attached video. This was my very next track day after the one that you viewed in my last post. It's about two weeks later.

I felt like I wasnt getting good bike placement on my apexes, and I felt inconsistent on top of that. I felt it was my eyes. I was allowing myself to look at the apex too long, and sometimes I was letting my eyes come back to the apex after I had already transitioned to my next reference point. So I had to make myself practice improving both of those. I felt like it was improved in this video. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNLzCCqj8s&t=441s
Cool! Looks better for sure but let's look a little deeper into what is going on. You say that you weren't getting good placement at the apex and that you were inconsistent but that you were looking at the apex, so here is my question. WHEN are you looking at the apex? Are you looking at the same time you are turning the bike? Are you looking slightly before? When do you think would be the ideal time to LOOK at the apex and then how long should you be looking at it before moving to the next reference point?

:grin2:
 

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Cool! Looks better for sure but let's look a little deeper into what is going on. You say that you weren't getting good placement at the apex and that you were inconsistent but that you were looking at the apex, so here is my question. WHEN are you looking at the apex? Are you looking at the same time you are turning the bike? Are you looking slightly before? When do you think would be the ideal time to LOOK at the apex and then how long should you be looking at it before moving to the next reference point?
So, Misti, I guess you're saying that we need to train our eyes to move--not only from one marker to the next--but at a certain time before we arrive at the marker. What I do...and I think what you're saying...is that you look at marker A and look away towards marker B before you arrive at marker A. In other words, don't look yourself all the way in to marker A. Right? There are two reasons for this. (1) You really NEED to be paying attention down the track so you don't have a problem, and (2) as you look at things closer to yourself, they seem to go by a lot faster. Looking down at the track next to your front tire is a good example (we'd never do it, of course). The world is whizzing by and this can be scary, and you're not looking down the track to see what's next. So...train the eyes.
 
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