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Track improvement focus

8K views 78 replies 11 participants last post by  Misti Hurst 
#1 ·
A little long...

Hello all. So I'm new here and still new to both bikes and track days. I started started riding in Jan of this year. 2 track days so far with a K1 gsxr 750. I had to stop riding at the start of Sep for a planned shoulder surgery then had to go back under the knife so my schedule was pushed back. Long story short I should be riding again by March/April which means my time off will pretty much equal my total time of riding experience. So basically I'm back at square one when I get back on 2s.

Outside of bike choice (looking for ninja 300, gsxr 600, sv650 dedicated track bike) I want to have a skill development plan when I get back on the track. My closest track is H2R and is where I'll get the most seat time, with traveling to other track days as I can. So here is the order of what I plan on working on. Let me know what you think and suggestions are appreciated.

1. get the raceline down and comfortable so it doesn't preoccupy all of my focus

2. body position. Try to continue building on previous work and rebuild the comfort of getting off the bike

3. control corner entry speed which I break down to 3 parts.
A. braking markers
B. rev matching with downshift (had not mastered but was constantly practicing)
C. smooth braking (learned not to panic grab at slow speeds with a big bite), gradual increase in pressure, and was getting comfortable with trailbraking as well

4. looking through the curve and transitioning reference points. This has been the most difficult for me but when I did it right it made me more comfortable coming out of the corners

5. getting a good drive out of the corner. Stand up bike and smooth roll on asap

So this is what order I plan to work on spread out over multiple track days, and not all at once. I want to move on to the next skill only after I feel comfortable on the previous one. And I plan on stacking them as I go, i.e. work on only 1. Then when comfortable work on 1 & 2. Then 1, 2, & 3, etc...

What do you guys think? Good plan? What would you add, delete, rearrange? I figured this would help me re-develop what I'd worked on before the long layoff. I'd only been riding like 30 days at my first track day and didn't have a set plan to work on. I have a goal to reach by years end and need some help getting there. Obviously this isn't everything but I figured it's a good start. Lmk

Attached is a pic of my body position at my first track day. I'd been riding about 30 days and felt like I was waaaay off the bike and way down low, lol. It's gotten better since then
 

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#2 ·
What would you add, delete, rearrange?
For starters I would delete that bike altogether. Learning to ride on that particular GSX-R750, which in its day was giving larger bikes a hard time and even beating them in many cases, is a sure fire way to kill your learning curve. Get a bike that's more beginner friendly and crawl a bit before you start walking. You'll thank me later. :thumbup
 
#3 ·
I'm in the process of looking right now. Have come across quite a few track bikes for sale, gsxr 600 and R6. Also a lot of 250/300 ninja/cbr too. Very few of the 250/300 have any track prep done. But i dont need a true track bike. Could get by with some case savers and plastics I think. Hope to have picked one up by the end of february. If not...it's all I'll have. Any other suggestions?
 
#4 ·
I would do this in order because one will feed the next step
#1,3,4,2,5

From your pic your fighting input, body posture, and speed ... basically making it harder to learn.

Eliminate all that and sit up, pick one gear and stay in it.
next session try rolling on smooth and rolling off throttle smooth /try not to use brakes
After that next session add brakes/ off throttle smooth , brake slowly, smooth , then off and roll on throttle smooth and progressive.

I say sit up so you can see the track fully and allows you to look farther down the track . It will also take heavy handle bar pressure off the front.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the input. After reading your post and looking over my plan again I think your suggestion makes much more sense. It had a better flow and transition from one skill to the next much more naturally. Thanks :grin2:
 
#7 ·
I'm a coach with the California Superbike School and second this idea. It's great to have a plan put fourth like you have but you need to make sure that you are learning the best way to execute certain skills and techniques. You say for example that you want to first learn the race line so that it doesn't pre-occupy your time. This is fine but it is important to also understand what makes a good line. Please feel free to ask me any questions about the school or any skills/techniques but in the mean time let's take a look at what a "good line" is.


How would you define what a good line, or what a race line actually is? How might a basic control like throttle control influence your line?
 
#11 ·
When i said moving the bike accordingly I was thinking about two things. 1 is standing it up sooner so that I can get on the throttle as soon as possible. 2 is getting the bike on the line best positioned for the next turn. I should be able to roll on the throttle AS I'm standing the bike up. As the contact patch gets bigger I can keep rolling on, right?

I also believe that proper throttle control maintains your line. But too aggressive on the throttle can push you wide (best case) or put you down (worse case). This is all based on studying...but I really need to practice this stuff on the track. Doing it is a lot different than reading it. Haha
 
#12 ·
You should be able to get on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is turned and roll it on throughout the corner. You don't have to wait until you start standing the bike up to begin roll on, you can "get on the gas asap and roll it on smoothly, evenly and constantly throughout the turn" (Keith Code), but you would want to roll it on harder and harder AS you are bringing the bike back upright.

Proper throttle control maintains your line, yes, correct. And correct about being too aggressive with the throttle TOO EARLY can push you wide, and too aggressive in general can cause you to to possibly loose the rear or go down.

Does that make sense? Seems like what I said above is a little bit different to what you were thinking and practicing.
 
#15 ·
You go where you look, look through the curve to the best line for the next curve. If you think you’re going fast, you’re going to fast. You should feel smooth, and a big smile should be in your helmet after a good curve. Have fun, and ride so you can enjoy dinner after, go to work in the morning and live to ride again. The fun is subjective. You have the power...

???
 
#18 · (Edited)
I have my cameras mounted now. Didn't have them on when I was at MSRH. I had them with me but forgot to mount them. I definitely want to get some action shots of how I'm transitioning on the bike and how well my BP is developing. So I have one of the 360 cameras for the back watchinng me for that. I also have a regular camera facing forward so I can see my lines as I go through the course. Where am I tipping in at, how am I hitting the apexes, etc...
 
#21 · (Edited)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImI5cl0G2f8&t=540s

So here is a video I pieced together of several clips of the footage from different sessions at my May 13th trackday at MSRH. This is the first time I've ever posted anything to YouTube. It was a good day overall. On my very first session after the round robin I was turning right at diamonds edge (double apex) and looked left for no reason so off into the grass I went. I'll post that to YouTube and add a link to it as well.

I spent a lot of time in 3rd gear so you can see/hear the slower acceleration out of a lot of corners. Noticed that watching the videos with a buddy who is level 2. Instead being in 3rd/4th I should have been in 2nd/3rd more. Also noticed that at sugar and spice (after long front straight) sometimes I was on my mark hitting the apexes, but I also missed it pretty often, especially later in the day. Not out of control but just took bad lines sometimes and missed the apexes which made the turns longer than they should have been.

BP overall was pretty good. Was working on a slight change to my inside foot positioning. I dont think I'll need to hang off much more until I'm carrying more corner speed. What do you guys think? This was also my first trackday with my mirrors removed and it was much better. Cant wait to get some track bodywork on it. I also noticed that I'm still not comfortable pushing all the way to the edge of the track. Sometimes I did it, but I had to consciously make myself do it. And at the carousel (long left hander) I'm supposed to push the bike wide with the throttle but I did not feel comfortable doing it so tried to really focus on doing that on the last session. It was better but I was still wanting to hold steady throttle and steer out there when instead I should have held lean angle and pushed wide with the throttle. Any tips on getting more comfortable doing that? Any tips on anything that you see in the videos? What should I keep doing and what improvement areas do you see? Novice looking for help.
 
#35 ·
Novice looking for help.
Howdy. I think Misti's advice is bang-on. I would add to that a few things. First, I don't know if you are doing this or not, but lots of people drift into corners early, apex too early, and run wide because of the line they chose. Drifting to the outside of the track on the exit is fine as long as it's for the right reason. You want it to be because you're on the gas, and not because you apexed early and picked a bad line. So my 2 cent piece of advice is markers. Brake markers, turn-in markers. Look for them on the track. They may be cones, numbered signs, changes in surface, or whatever. The point is you want to have them accurate because when you adjust your line, you want the changes from the last lap to be small changes. Big, unexpected changes from the last lap can lead you OFF the track. Turn in or brake 20 feet later--not 50 feet later. Personally, I print out several copies of the track map and make notes after each session.

Here's a to a scene from The Hunt for Red October where they're blasting through undersea canyons in a huge sub with hyperaccurate maps (markers). One reason why some apex early is bad habits from public roads where you put the steering wheel/handlebars in one place and hold it there throughout the turn. As a result, riders who are nervous about the right turn-in/brake points will tend to drift in because the inner radius (curb) of the turn gives them a sense of security and safety. "I'll be okay if I just hug the inside curb." For the fast line, you want to stay wide as long as possible and apex as late as possible, and the only way to do this safely is with markers.

One more thing I'd like to mention is the order of events going into a turn:
1. Get your butt off the seat. (Basically, you should only have your butt centered on the seat on long straights.)
2. Brake.
3. Downshift.
4. Tip in.
5. Open throttle just before the apex (yes, before).
6. Roll on gas through exit.

 
#24 · (Edited)
Misti thanks for the reply. I see what you mean about rolling on too late sometimes as well as not rolling it on continuously and smoothly. I've watched that video so many times I can hear Kieth Code saying it, lol.

I also posted this on another site and a comment over there brought to my attention that I was rolling on too late (just like you mentioned) as well as being overly slow with the roll on. I will also take your advice and try to keep from holding a neutral throttle as well.

When I'm working on my throttle control do you recommend I go back to doing the single gear drills or should I keep working between 2 gears like I've been doing lately.

To try and answer your question I'd guess that good throttle control would allow me to keep the bikes suspension settled and the tires loaded properly. And to let me stay on the best line. Also I'd say I was making one of those mistakes you mentioned at every turn except for 2 ?. At the 6:34 mark there is a sweeping right hand turn as im passing the stand that you see in the field. I feel like I consistently did a good job of rolling on the throttle at that turn. That took me down a long back straight into a right hand double apex that exits to a left. I feel like I did an ok job rolling on the throttle for that left but a bad job rolling on for the two right handers of the double apex that led into that left. So I REALLY need to work on my corner exit and my throttle control/roll on.
 
#25 ·
Great. I'm glad you took some time to see the mistakes I was talking about and to think about and answer my questions.

I'd suggest doing one session with single gears, keeping the bike in 3rd or 4th for the entire session just to really get a feel for your throttle control. It's helpful to not have so many things to think about when working on improving a skill. Then go back to changing gears but keep working on throttle control.

Yes, good throttle control will keep the suspension in the correct range and provide optimal traction as well as help you maintain a predictable line. I did watch the video at the 6:34 mark and yes that turn has good tc and then it drops off again. What kinds of things are going to help you with getting better throttle control? Will it just be practicing and thinking about good throttle control or might other things affect when and how you can get on the gas? What about trying to do too many things right at turn in? Watch your video again and look closely at what you tend to do right before you turn the bike into a corner. Is there any way you could eliminate some of the extra "stuff" you are doing to help you have more attention available for perfecting throttle control?

:grin2::nerd:
 
#30 ·
I would love to attend the school but, unfortunately, due to work and $$$ it's not in the cards right now. So I'll keep hitting the track days for now. As soon as I can though I want to take your advice and attend the school. The time until then will hopefully allow me to be a little more capable as a rider before I go
 
#33 ·
I didnt realize how long it had been since I last logged in. I've been doing a lot of studying, reading, watching videos, etc... I've also been able to get some more track days in. The following two videos are of a trackday at Harris Hill Raceway (H2R) with Texas Motorcycle Academy. The guys there have helped me make some nice improvements in my riding. These are the front and rear camera views for the same session.

Front: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1HsAml2ViQ

Rear: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbqJmfBoj0
 
#34 · (Edited)
I didnt realize how long it had been since I last logged in. I've been doing a lot of studying, reading, watching videos, etc... I've also been able to get some more track days in. The following two videos are of a trackday at Harris Hill Raceway (H2R) with Texas Motorcycle Academy. The guys there have helped me make some nice improvements in my riding. These are the front and rear camera views for the same session.

Front: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1HsAml2ViQ

Rear: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbqJmfBoj0
 
#36 ·
Hey! Ok I quickly watched the first front facing video and first of all I'd like to say that it sounds like your throttle control has gotten a lot better! But, I have a question. How close would you say you are getting to the apex of most of the corners? Are you getting as close to them as consistently as you would like? What exactly are you looking at as you turn the bike into the corner?
 
#37 ·
Hey Misti. Thanks for the reply. I do feel like my throttle control is much better, and it's still a work in progress. ? .

Its funny that you mentioned how well I'm apexing. Its definately something that I am really trying to work on. So much so that it was my primary focus in the attached video. This was my very next track day after the one that you viewed in my last post. It's about two weeks later.

I felt like I wasnt getting good bike placement on my apexes, and I felt inconsistent on top of that. I felt it was my eyes. I was allowing myself to look at the apex too long, and sometimes I was letting my eyes come back to the apex after I had already transitioned to my next reference point. So I had to make myself practice improving both of those. I felt like it was improved in this video. What do you think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGNLzCCqj8s&t=441s
 
#39 ·
Cool! Looks better for sure but let's look a little deeper into what is going on. You say that you weren't getting good placement at the apex and that you were inconsistent but that you were looking at the apex, so here is my question. WHEN are you looking at the apex? Are you looking at the same time you are turning the bike? Are you looking slightly before? When do you think would be the ideal time to LOOK at the apex and then how long should you be looking at it before moving to the next reference point?

:grin2:
 
#38 · (Edited)
Here is a pic of the track. I'm going to see if I can print off a copy and draw the line I try to follow and post it up. There are a few corners where I try to go a little deeper into the corner before turn in.
 

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#43 ·
What I try to do is look at my corner first, seeing where I want to go. Then set my body up while keeping my eyes on the apex. Then, just like I do with my reference point for turn in, I try to move my eyes to my next reference point when I know I'm on track to hit my apex, and avoid looking at the apex too long.

It's a big difference in feel when I get it right vs when I get it wrong.
 
#53 ·
I just caught up on this thread by reading the back and forth between the two of you, and it was definately helpful for me. Gave me some things that I want to practice at the next track day. I've been studying and practicing more, and have made some improvements. Putting together some video now of the last track day so that I can put it on YouTube and link it here. Please let me know what you guys see when you watch it.
 
#55 ·
Lose the music if you can. We like to hear the bike around here and nothing else.

Anyway...you need to get more comfortable working your transmission at speed. There is absolutely NO need to be pulling in the clutch everytime you upshift. One less thing to think about. When you're on the gas, just preload the shifter back off the throttle a split second, then welcome yourself to the next gear. If you get it right then it'll damn near sound like you have a quick shifter installed.

Also, work on timing your rev matching while downshifting. You're downshifts are all over the place. You'll have to get a handle on both upshifting and downshifting if you intend to get better/faster. :thumbup
 
#56 ·
Carnage, thx for the reply. I'll keep that in mind with the music. I like to hear it in the background behind the bike, just not overpowering it. So maybe I'll make one with and one without the music. ?

On the shifting, I'd say I'm clutchless shifting 95% of the time. I agree with you on the clutch not being needed. Its faster and smoother in my limited experience. Was there something that sounded off about mine in the video?

The downshifting and blipping the throttle is definately a work in progress. I'm still getting more comfortable with it. What was it in particular that was off? Too late, too early, too slowly, too long between blip and clutch release? Sometimes it feels better than others, and sometimes I'll get into a groove where it feels perfect all session. I want to get better at this because I do want to get faster/smoother. And I dont just want to rely on my slipper clutch.
 
#58 ·
The downshifting and blipping the throttle is definately a work in progress. I'm still getting more comfortable with it. What was it in particular that was off? Too late, too early, too slowly, too long between blip and clutch release? Sometimes it feels better than others, and sometimes I'll get into a groove where it feels perfect all session. I want to get better at this because I do want to get faster/smoother. And I dont just want to rely on my slipper clutch.
Have you watched A Twist of the Wrist II over on youtube lately? There's a section on throttle blipping when downshifting where they go over it in detail with great visuals. It's almost impossible for me personally to explain it in text. Check it out and remember practice makes perfect. You'll need to get the shifts down all while braking at the same time. Before long, you'll forget you even have a slipper clutch. :thumbup
 
#59 ·
A slipper is a safetynet, not a crutch. I've watched some youtube vids of guys on liter bikes going from full throttle, 160mph down the straight from 6th gear to third in about a second and a half. Kinda makes me jealous when I wheelhop it in to a corner thinking I'm going down to second and wind up in first.
 
#61 ·
That's where I want to get to. Being able to break it down as I approach the corner and be nice and smooth while doing it.

When I first started working on my throttle blipping I found it very hard to blip it while staying steady on the brakes. I found myself accidentally stabbing the brakes while trying to blip the throttle.

I've gotten better at that, now I'm trying to work on not taking so long between the blip and clutch release that I lose the benefit of the blip (rev-matching) in the first place. And I'm also working on being quicker with the whole process, but I figure that will continue to get better as I get smoother. Sometimes I get in a groove and feel like I'm nailing it, and sometimes it just feels...off.
 
#64 ·
Misti, when I look into the corner I would be looking for the apex and my line to get there. As I continue through the corner I should keep my eyes up and looking through the corner to see the corner exit which tells me what I'm going to do with my throttle, when and how aggressively.

Anything else that I'm missing that would help me?
 
#65 ·
Sounds great. You want to look into the turn BEFORE you begin turning the bike and as you said, you are going to look at the apex. This will give you more information about the corner and how much you need to press on the bars to get it turned etc, and will also slow down your perception of speed so that you can carry more speed into the turn. Then as you say you want to look up to the exit and keep your eyes flowing from one reference point to the next smoothly. Just work on the timing of when you look into the turn!!!

So, besides carrying more entry speed and having more info about the corner, what else will looking into the turn AT THE APEX sooner help you with?
 
#71 ·
It's been a little while but I finally got in some more track time. I did a 3 day event at Autobahn Country Club in Joliet, IL Aug 31-Sep2. First time on track in a few months. I went in planning to spend all 3 days working on corner entry (lots of subcomponents) and mid corner roll speed. Thankfully the instructors pointed out some of my old bad habits popping up, assuming from the long layoff, so I ended up working on those instead. Practiced the line, smooth throttle control, cut out some excess body movement, etc... Ended up being noticeably quicker at the end solely as a by product of working on the areas they pointed out. Good thing too, because I think I would of crashed if I had tried to go faster with the bad inputs I was giving the bike initially. Here is some video. Please let me know what you guys see/hear. I've noticed some things that I would like to clean up but would love for you guys to let me know what more experienced eyes and ears notice.

This is the last session of day 3 and I wanted to push myself just a little to see how everything I'd worked on tied together. I tried to slowly ramp up each lap and feel like my best lap was the last one which starts around 8:45 iirc.

 
#72 ·
Autobahn!!! I haven't ridden there in like 14 years!!! Hahahah. I'll take a look at the video soon, but just wanted to say good work on taking the time to gradually ramp up your riding and to work on specific techniques. Well done. Give me a few days and I'll get back to you about the video!
 
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