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My supercharged K8 project...

131738 Views 192 Replies 85 Participants Last post by  D.Man
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The bike pictured above is my bone stock K8. A friend gave me a fantastic deal on this bike last year, and it has just under 2000 miles on the clock. I love this bike for the same reasons everyone does -- incredibly smooth, extremely capable and controllable, great power, and fantastic ergonomics for a supersport machine. The local Dynojet 250i says it puts down 152whp (SAE corrected), which is actually more power than a full-exhaust, PCIII-tuned '04 ZX-10R produced on the same dyno.


Now, normally the next step would be to add an exhaust, change the gearing around, or add some braided lines, and while I'll eventually get to those mods, I have something different in mind right now...





It's a Rotrex C15-60 supercharger, right off the plane from Denmark. This little unit can support over 230whp, and that's the number I'll be shooting for with my little project here. Also, the impeller wheel used to be cast, but these new wheels are apparently machined out of billet.


Before you ask, yes, I am a power junkie. There's just no going back once you've ridden a boosted literbike...





You can see how small it actually is compared to the bike. Somehow, some way, it will fit in there...





After staring at this sight for a couple of days, I realized the only place to put this thing is in-between the engine and the radiator, just below the frame. I'd love to stick it up higher, but the frame would get in the way of the belt (which is a dealbreaker) and the radiator fan would also have to be relocated. Placing it lower eliminates these problems, but makes it much harder to hide the drive behind the fairings and also places the inlet of the Rotrex very close to the header. I also do not want cornering clearance to be compromised at all, so it will be in as far (and up as high) as possible.





If anyone is wondering how I plan on driving this thing, take a look at the picture above. The M10 bolt currently fastened into the end of the crank will be removed and a machined adapter will take its place (this adapter has to locate perfectly off the crankshaft for this to work). A pulley will sit on top of this adapter and then drive the supercharger via an 8mm synchronous belt. The supercharger bracket will either take the place of the stock cast cover or locate off of it -- I'm not exactly sure yet which way to go.



There's a lot of work left to be done, but I'm looking forward to it. I plan on tuning the ECU directly and, of course, it will run on pump gas. In the meantime, wish me luck, and stay tuned...
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As I've mentioned before, my plan for this bike was to tune the ECU directly, mainly thanks to the incredible amount of customization possible. I know there is open-source stuff out there, but Guhl Motors is only about 1.5hrs away from me, so I loaded the bike up and spent a day out in Lancaster...









We did about 20 pulls, tuning the air/fuel for each throttle position (and there are a lot of positions that the ECU reads from). Actually, the sheer number of maps present in the stock ECU is almost mind-boggling -- every condition you can think of is basically represented, and if you take the time, you can really have one killer running bike.

After everything was tuned, we decided to do a final power pull before taking it for a road test:




It produced 200whp @ only 10000rpm -- stock it made a max of 152whp. Keep in mind, too, that on Guhl's dyno, the S1000RR & 2011 ZX10R make 170whp. The sound of the thing was absolutely unreal, and it shot one and a half foot flames out the tailpipe due to eliminating the stock fuel cutoff at the rev limiter. We were having some issues with the power starting to flatline above 10.5k, and that final run there actually tapered off up top, at which point I thought that we might be leaking some boost...

Now comes the part of the story that usually never gets told in builds like this, and will hopefully teach you all a valuable lesson about assumptions. More specifically, just don't make them!


Here is how the bike looks now:






If you look very carefully at the last few seconds of the video in the bottom right corner of the screen, you'll see the coolant overflow purge. I wasn't sure at first what was going on, but after another quick pull with power now really dropping, we deduced that the head gasket must have given way. A compression test sealed its fate -- the first two cylinders were noticeably down compared to the others. So, after all the work I had done, the engine had to come out.

Before I yanked it out, though, I took it for a spin back at the shop. You could not tell it was down on power at all, as it was silky smooth and absolutely impossible to give any more than 40% throttle in first gear (with stock gearing, no less). The datalogger told the true story though -- the engine was seeing between 15-17psi at redline! On pump gas!

Now, I have designed quite a few supercharger systems over the years for all kinds of engines, and I can usually predict the final boost within a psi or two, but this bike completely threw me for a loop. It apparently just runs out of steam up top, causing the Rotrex to pack serious amounts of air into the cylinders. On pump gas, this is not a good thing.

3 mistakes ultimately led to this failure -- 1) no boost gauge as I thought I knew the boost curve ahead of time, 2) datalogger was not recording while tuning since we used my O2 sensor, and 3) I was not personally handling the tuning on the road where I would have caught the insane boost levels before anything bad would have occurred.


Here's where the gasket failed:




The cylinders looked pretty good, but there's some discoloration and aluminum buildup at the top of the bore, meaning the pistons are shot. There's almost no sign of detonation, but the intense heat led to scuffing.




Lots of work to be done.


Stay tuned for the (hopefully) grand conclusion to this build...
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Awesome!

Can't wait for the grand finale! :punk
Your headgasket is a sign of detonation, i would check your big end bearings too
Lucky the runs were short enough not to damage the cyls
Your belt drive is obviously a very sound system to make that much psi without too much belt slip, a guy i know built a supercharger kit and could only get about 12 psi, so he changed to toothed belt and got 19, ... same result as you at that point ...

Going to make any changes while its apart ??
Sounded like it went bad at 36 seconds, just before he chopped the throttle or was that rev limiting?. Bad luck. I am sure it will be right second time around.
I have been lurking this thread for a while now. Great build, you do some amazing work! Can't wait to see the grand finale.
Your headgasket is a sign of detonation, i would check your big end bearings too
Lucky the runs were short enough not to damage the cyls
Your belt drive is obviously a very sound system to make that much psi without too much belt slip, a guy i know built a supercharger kit and could only get about 12 psi, so he changed to toothed belt and got 19, ... same result as you at that point ...

Going to make any changes while its apart ??
Yep, there was detonation (and I'm sure that's why the power was flatlining up top instead of climbing to redline), but it was really quite minor for that amount of boost. You can barely see some tiny pitting on one side of the piston crown, but that's it. Checked the bearings, they're absolutely beautiful.

Definitely no belt slip with a synchronous belt. The amount of boost is surprising as I had logged the boost up to 7k rpm before taking it to Guhl, and it matched the 10R perfectly (I couldn't rev it any higher as it was going way too lean). With this same pulley setup, the 10R made 9psi peak -- again, you just can't make assumptions, even if you think you know something really really well...


Sounded like it went bad at 36 seconds, just before he chopped the throttle or was that rev limiting?. Bad luck. I am sure it will be right second time around.
That's just the limiter. When you leave the fuel on until the ignition cut, it can almost sound like a gunshot at times. I don't have the chart, but it started losing some power at the very top of 2nd gear on that pull. The pull we did after that just started nosing over after 11k rpm.


When this goes back together, it will have a new stock MLS head gasket, pistons, and rings. The engine doesn't even have 3000 miles on it yet, so it's still very fresh. I am going to get the pistons coated at Swain Tech, though. This thing should handle 9-10 peak psi all day long as it is, so as long as the boost stays in that range, it should be smooth sailing.
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Did you put rods in it? With that kind of power stock one's probably won't last long.
Did you put rods in it? With that kind of power stock one's probably won't last long.
I'm not worried about rods at all. Believe it or not, there's actually less stress present in the rotational assembly under low to moderate levels of boost than there is naturally aspirated, thanks to increased cylinder filling and the combustion process taking place over greater range of crankshaft rotation (the additional compression force counteracts the inherent inertial tension force of the piston accelerating down in the bore).

One of the first things you notice when you supercharge one of these bikes is that the whole engine gets smoother, almost like an electric motor, and it's not just a feeling -- it actually does smooth out for the reason I just said. For a 50% power increase, there's still far greater stress due to rpms than there is due to additional power, so as long as you keep the redline the same, the stock rods are fine. Now, if you add enough boost, then the compression forces override the tension forces, and you end up with pretzel shaped rods.
Stay tuned for the (hopefully) grand conclusion to this build...
When is this kit going to be available and for how much?
Are you the guy that does the vfr800 supercharger kit? I'm guessing so from your avatar?
What fuel and ecu mods have you done , all tps mapping with the flash or is there some pressure based influence too ??
What a/f were you targetting,
Good question Maj750, I was wondering the same thing when it was explained it went lean up top but forgot to ask. I have seen on the turbo websites where they offer a 3 bar pressure sensor. Think it was a GM one.

toro are you going to reduce the drive to the compressor?
Are you the guy that does the vfr800 supercharger kit? I'm guessing so from your avatar?
That would be me. I've had one guy net 200whp on a 6th-gen with stock internals and pump gas. That's a 100% gain from 11psi. Not a single failure, either -- those engines are bomb proof.



What fuel and ecu mods have you done , all tps mapping with the flash or is there some pressure based influence too ??
What a/f were you targetting,
Good question Maj750, I was wondering the same thing when it was explained it went lean up top but forgot to ask. I have seen on the turbo websites where they offer a 3 bar pressure sensor. Think it was a GM one.

toro are you going to reduce the drive to the compressor?
Fuel system is bone stock. Earlier in the thread I talk about testing the pump and finding out that it can support plenty of power; bump up the voltage and it can handle nearly 400hp, too. Once the injectors are set at a 50/50 split, they deliver tons of fuel -- more than enough for this power level.

The ECU tuning was all done at Guhl using their proprietary software. I'm not basing the tune off of manifold pressure as it's not a transient response with a supercharger and stays constant for a certain RPM & TP (unless, of course, you encounter major elevation changes). Every bike I've done up to this point has used nothing other than a Power Commander, and they've run perfectly. Ease of tuning is one major advantage a supercharger has over a turbo. We did talk about possibly adding in a 3-bar at a later date to handle slight boost variances, but it's not necessary for a spot on tune.

The bike did not go lean up top. It actually had no trouble nearly dipping down into the 9s on the AFR, but that is way, way too rich. I like to start with a 13:1 ratio and taper down to mid 11s up top. In this case, failure only occurred because I was running pump gas with nearly 17psi!

I am not going to change the pulley setup as the entire system was designed around those pulleys. Since this bike has such a high redline, if you underdrive the Rotrex too much, the rest of the powerband will suffer. I've already tested & figured out a solution -- an inlet restrictor. The restrictor creates a pressure drop at the front of the inlet (which alters the PR), and gradually tapers the boost off to a certain level. In this case, I ran some calculations and figured out what size hole was needed to bring the boost down to 9-10psi at redline. It works awesome. You still have great boost response down low and in the midrange, but instead of constantly climbing, it gently noses over up top. Even with the bum pistons and gasket, it was amazingly fast when I tested it.
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I bet it was amazingly fast :)
I have talked to the local guy with Rotrex about "boost control" aiming at the same thing you are. to overgear and externally control pressure improving the mid range and limiting top end, we were discussing using either a BOV with pressure porting below the diaphram (instead of the usual Vac on top ) or a turbo wastegate on the inlet and a E Boost or similar to pwm a solenoid and have total control over pressures either gear based or manually triggered ,
At 10 psi your probably going to have the same problem turbo guys do when they put too high a wastegate spring in and have a bike you cannot utilise fully in the lower gears
Your A/F plan sounds similar to mine, except i start mid 12's as i have gapped my plugs down and runs less smooth if too lean
Knew lots of supercharger installs used only TPS /rpm mapping , makes it much easier than turbo
Yeah you did say detonation right above my post. Have to pay more attention and not stay up too late.

The smoothness thing I noticed as well (only running NA) when I put a Motty AFR tuner on and set it around 13.2 AFR. Stock, they run up in the 14s and 15s.

So how is the stock IAP running with your setup?
I bet it was amazingly fast :)
I have talked to the local guy with Rotrex about "boost control" aiming at the same thing you are. to overgear and externally control pressure improving the mid range and limiting top end, we were discussing using either a BOV with pressure porting below the diaphram (instead of the usual Vac on top ) or a turbo wastegate on the inlet and a E Boost or similar to pwm a solenoid and have total control over pressures either gear based or manually triggered ,
At 10 psi your probably going to have the same problem turbo guys do when they put too high a wastegate spring in and have a bike you cannot utilise fully in the lower gears
Your A/F plan sounds similar to mine, except i start mid 12's as i have gapped my plugs down and runs less smooth if too lean
Knew lots of supercharger installs used only TPS /rpm mapping , makes it much easier than turbo
I think the ultimate solution for boost control on a supercharged application would be a servo operated butterly valve placed before the inlet of the supercharger (I bet you could even use the stock SET servo to control it). Restricting the inlet is a much nicer solution than venting the pressure afterwards as you do not waste any power in compressing air & then just dumping it to atmosphere. I eventually plan on making a another map (you can remap the A-B-C mode to whatever you want) that utilizes the secondary throttle plates and modified ignition timing on a per gear basis so that I can go WOT and keep the front end just barely hovering off the ground.

BTW, I don't mind if things get a bit crazy in the first few gears -- it makes riding around town a blast. My VFR was too insane with the gearing I originally had on it, though; it would power wheelie in 5th gear, so I had to change it to something more manageable.



So how is the stock IAP running with your setup?
No problems. The nipples on the throttle body are restricted, so the boost does not affect the MAP like it does on other bikes where I have to use a separate restrictor and one-way valve to vent pressure. The thing starts up and idles like a stocker and throws no error codes.
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Great job and like the others stated, I can't wait to see the final product once the engine is re-assembled. Is this build a personal only build or you may consider selling a few production kits once everything is completely done?
I'm also curious to see how the plastics fit over everything, nothing is sweeter than a sleeper looking bike.
Hey Dan, I hadn't checked in on this for a couple weeks just been so busy, but I was really pumped to see the progress early this morning. The build is looking great as always, I think everyone here really appreciates your honesty and effort you put into the work you do. Plus letting us see exactly what your plans are and what has been happening is just excellent. So very good work, now for a few questions.

I think the ultimate solution for boost control on a supercharged application would be a servo operated butterly valve placed before the inlet of the supercharger (I bet you could even use the stock SET servo to control it). Restricting the inlet is a much nicer solution than venting the pressure afterwards as you do not waste any power in compressing air & then just dumping it to atmosphere.
I was really curious about this, will this not put extra stress on the rotax, by restricting the airflow in? I'm not sure or saying it's true but it seems logical that more resistance means added stress on driving mechanisms. Perhaps the stress associated with it is negligible.

I'd like your input on this one, as well I'll mention it to my friend who's a physics proff at the university here and can relay what his thoughts are.

Personally, I've always liked the idea of integrating a wastegate system, I know it's tight but if there was room for it that would be awesome. And it's a different story for SC's but for turbos it's an absolute fail safe and critical in controlling boost spikes. Plus for me it's just another beautiful part of the forced induction symphony.


I eventually plan on making a another map (you can remap the A-B-C mode to whatever you want) that utilizes the secondary throttle plates and modified ignition timing on a per gear basis so that I can go WOT and keep the front end just barely hovering off the ground.
I called you earlier this morning too because I'd like to discuss with you the maps and how they might run for me up here in Canada with differences in elevation, octane numbers on our premium pump gas here verses yours down south (91 is the highest here), etc.

And finally, when and how can I send you a deposit on this kit?

Anyways, I hope everything else is going well for you, take care and all the best on the rest of the build.
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