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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Disclaimer:
Now, don't start wrenching just yet, merely a brainfart that escaped my mental sphincter today
I am not recommending anyone to try this out, and if one does, they do this of their own accord (and at their own risk)


(Note: this is for a GSX-R 1000 2005, but I already noticed that k6/7 600/750 use a similar design, so this might hold truth for more models)


I just had my cam chain and tensioner replaced (chain turned out to be half an inch longer than new, robbing power)
And I had a good look at the tensioner and how it worked and noticed that the housing has thread to hold the bolt that keeps the spring in place


Photograph White Black Eyewear Style


So that got me thinking:

Is it possible to replace that short bolt and spring with a longer bolt and safety nut?
Instead of spring pressure pushing the plunger against the chainguide
An APE tensioner isn't much different, except that the adjuster bolt and plunger are 1 and the same


One thing I would see, that could become a problem, is the stopper (#1) that only allows 1-way movement outward,
If you turn it too tight, you'd have to take the entire tensioner out again to reset it
I'm guessing it can't be removed since the tensioner could possibly fall out when mounting or end up turned in the wrong orientation,
but it might be able to file a bit of material away at an angle it so it can click both ways

Another thing might be that the housing prevents the use of a long enough bolt to reach the plunger (without reducing the diameter of the bottom end of the bolt

And I have no answer for the oil jet (except blocking it off, which would be the same with an APE)

Nickel Engineering Composite material Auto part Machine




The biggest issue I can't predict, is how much power is transferred from the chain/guide to the housing/bolt when running

From factory, the stopper and the plunger can take it with just spring pressure, but this puts all stress at the base of the tensioner housing in/against the cilinder block
-A jury-rigged OEM tensioner would consist of 2 unconnected parts, the plunger and the bolt, where an APE tensioner bolt is in 1 piece

-One could put in a bolt, which is way above spec, but what does this do with the force put on the outer end of the housing? (APE housing is a solid piece)
 

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Interesting idea.

I believe it might be easier just to buy (or make a MCCT if you have the tooling) though. I say that because I got a MCCT for my Ninja from Spears Racing, and it was a very simple component. They were able to make the piece a much simpler shape than the OEM auto adjuster. And instead of the normal shoe pressing thing on the shaft, it was just like a rounded bolt head or something IIRC... Fit perfect, runs perfect, and I love everything about it. I had a similar issue as you, my cam chain was stretched enough that even a new CCT wasn't tensioning correctly. And on that bike, dumb as it was, you have to split the crankcase to replace the chain. Wasn't about to do that, and those small motors aren't tuned very hot. Going from 39hp to 37hp is fine for me lol.

I haven't looked, but does no one make an MCCT for the K5 1k?

Interesting thoughts!
-Mike
 

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Probably, no help, but I converted my tensioner to a manual back in '86, on my 6'er Gixxer which I built into a full blown push start superbike. I drilled the outer bolt and tapped it for a 6mm screw with a lock nut. I don't recall any details but did it for 2 reasons, one to manually adjust and secondly as a backup if the original that ratchets was to slip and have my chain instantly slacken and cause a catastrophic motor failure. Not the best photo, but you get the idea. Working on that beast now, may have it running for the first time since'92 tomorrow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Interesting idea.

I believe it might be easier just to buy (or make a MCCT if you have the tooling) though. I say that because I got a MCCT for my Ninja from Spears Racing, and it was a very simple component. They were able to make the piece a much simpler shape than the OEM auto adjuster. And instead of the normal shoe pressing thing on the shaft, it was just like a rounded bolt head or something IIRC... Fit perfect, runs perfect, and I love everything about it. I had a similar issue as you, my cam chain was stretched enough that even a new CCT wasn't tensioning correctly. And on that bike, dumb as it was, you have to split the crankcase to replace the chain. Wasn't about to do that, and those small motors aren't tuned very hot. Going from 39hp to 37hp is fine for me lol.

I haven't looked, but does no one make an MCCT for the K5 1k?

Interesting thoughts!
-Mike
I believe MCCT's for K5's are available

But I was just thinking, since there is already thread in the CCT, all you would need to fix a failing CCT, is a bolt and a nut (and maybe some teflon tape against seeping)
 

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Yeah I can see where you're coming from. My SpearsRacing MCCT had a hard O-ring on the main bolt to seal the threads, and when you crank the lock nut to the base of the MCCT, that O-ring would seal the threads. It is actually a slightly mediocre seal, the bolt is slightly dirty after a year of riding. No 'leaking', but it got slightly moistened over the year or so its been on that bike. I still love it. But yeah maybe you could just use a bolt, maybe with a threaded on rounded end towards inside the motor to mimic the shoe on the plunger, and seal it up.

I am almost tempted to do a MCCT on my K4 750, but also if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But like Nick said, it's also a bit of insurance to prevent skipping. I have always found the MCCT to be better than the automatic ones. My automatic ones have gotten more out of adjustment than the manual ones honestly. Maybe the manual units are just that much more rigid and stable, and don't degrade from vibrations and such as easily as the auto ones. Especially on high-mileage machines, where the chain starts stretching.

First sign anything going awry in my valvetrain on my K4, MCCT first. Not a bad mod so long as you know how to adjust it.

-Mike
 

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$69 for a real good MCCT? meh, why bother unless its all you have, its doable, make it oil proof is all you really need to worry about, the bolt wants to be stable not flop around at all, weld a long all thread inside the housing to stabilize it, lock nut outside, done deal
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
$69 for a real good MCCT? meh, why bother unless its all you have, its doable, make it oil proof is all you really need to worry about, the bolt wants to be stable not flop around at all, weld a long all thread inside the housing to stabilize it, lock nut outside, done deal
I just figured, that as an added bonus, you can even leave the CCT in place, and not have to dick around with taking off the cilinder head cover and anchoring the cams
 

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I'll stir the pot a bit. The K9 1000 has a redesigned and I believe superior design tensioner. I've wondered if there was a way to adapt it to the earlier models.

The manual tensioner has a reputation for being difficult to adjust initially. There are several such posts here.

"I just had my cam chain and tensioner replaced (chain turned out to be half an inch longer than new, robbing power)"
I don't know what that was about or how you got a longer chain but I've wondered for some time if there is a way to check the cam chain for wear/stretch, say with calipers over a specified number of links. There's nothing like that in the service manual, even though the chain is unlikely to have an infinite life. The chain is made by DID and I don't know how to ask them. I tried asking Cloyes, a US manufacturer of timing chains and received an uninformative response.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I don't know what that was about or how you got a longer chain but I've wondered for some time if there is a way to check the cam chain for wear/stretch, say with calipers over a specified number of links. There's nothing like that in the service manual, even though the chain is unlikely to have an infinite life. The chain is made by DID and I don't know how to ask them. I tried asking Cloyes, a US manufacturer of timing chains and received an uninformative response.
I also checked the servicemanual prior, and indeed, most cam-related parts (as is the drive chain) are noted with a service limit, but not the cam chain
Only remark is, if the sprockets of the cams are worn, one should also replace the chain

oddly when I checked that 2009 CCT you mentioned, I come upon this one at MSP
Please note this part replaces the following parts:
1283041G00, 1283041G10
 

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Just a word of caution re cam chains and tensioners. Know exactly what you are doing when removing, replacing or adjusting. In the late 70's I thought I knew more than I did after doing a manual cam chain adjustment on a SOHC Honda 750-4. It's done with the motor running at a low rpm and loosening a 6mm screw, allowing the tensioner shoe to push against the chain under spring tension. The next day I attempted to adjust the chain the same way on a DOHC Kaw 900, big mistake! Lots of noise, then the motor quit. The chain slackened, valves hit each other and the pistons. Several bent valves, cracked guides. This cost me $$$ and time, just trying to do a free adjustment for a friend. The Kaw must be done static with a timing mark lined up.
 

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I didn't do the MCCT on my Ninja that way...

You have to start with it tightened kinda tight, and then fire the engine up. And at idle, loosen it until you begin to clearly hear the clattering of a loose chain whipping. And then you don't loosen it any more than that. Tighten until the non 'clockwork' ticks have just gone away, and take it for a spin around the block with no helmet so that you can listen. Check once more when the engine is warmed up, it tends to slightly loosen when the motor is hot.

Set it ever so slightly on the loose side at op temp, and so long as there is no whining or whirring at cold start and at any point during operation, it's set correctly. I didn't use my timing marks or even take the cyl head cover off at all when I did mine. You do have to be careful though. Slightly loose is infinitely better than slightly tight.

-Mike
 

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basically how I do the Gixxer, I'll lube the threads real good with sewing machine oil well so it spins freely and gives me plenty of feedback, then I screw it in slowly so I can feel it touch the guide then I go a 1/2 turn or so and pick up any natural slack...

then I fire it up with the chain maybe a lil on the tight side so no teeth can jump, then I loosen it till I hear it just begin to rattle as a loose tensioner or chain will do then I turn in 3/4 to a full turn or till it quiets.. call it good, lock it up.. I put an extra niut so I have two and lock the two together NEVER had an issue..

APE recommends you do it the other way, spin the engine till you feel it come into contact with the chain then back out 1/4 turn, I always get rattle when I do it this way, Imay be misinterpreting their instructions tho?

also that's another thing the single nut I have seen back out very quickly and folks are like "but I followed your instructions now its noisy again", they recommend loctite I like a lock nut .. the pro is nice as the through bolt has an allen on the end hold it still, lock the nut.. no o-ring to crush, pretty nice really

if you notice on the new upgraded "pro series" unit they have an allen threaded bolt 1 lock nut with an internal o-ring on the engine side, pretty nice, the upgraded classic has two nuts and an external seal, o'ring sits in a groove for oil seal.. bout as good as they get I spose? only took em 20 years to figure it out.. lol
 

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Oh yeah TM you bring up a good point, a good amount of the feedback does come through the bolt itself, good call out on feeling it through the adjuster. Very much so true. Nothing makes you feel more like an old school mechanic than doing a procedure by listening and feel, haha.

Lots of wrong ways to do a MCCT tension, and a couple right ways.

-Mike
 
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