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IridiumRed!!! I'M GLAD YOUR ass is BACK. Good thing I called you 10x/day with texts for a month to get you out of your cryo state.
Yeah, JP is a big part of the reason I'm back on here.... and back to working on bikes. I got really burned out for a while and just kinda hibernated as a hermit for a while

So you all have JP to thank, or maybe blame, for me being back. Hehe. Thanks for hangin in there bud :)


JK -

"1 Finn = 10 Russians".... yeah.... 10 PISSED OFF Russians... hahaha

But seriously, the more I've played around with engines, and talked to good and great engine builders, the more I've come to respect / appreciate how important the basics are to having a good running engine. Its easy to throw a set of "flashy" parts at a motor like cams, big bore kits, expensive exhausts, etc

It can be flashy because of bragging rights. Its easy to say "hey, I got this 1042, 1070, 1143 motor with big cams...." etc. hey, I do it myself!!

BUT ... all those parts mean nothing if the BASICS of the motor aren't cared for. And setup properly - with the right clearances.

Things like ring seal / having low leakdown numbers. Pulling a ton of air & fuel into a cylinder is pointless if most of it slips by the rings.

Things like having GOOD valve jobs - like .001" or less runout on the seat, with a good seal with the valve seat. And valves / valve guides with a tight fit, so the valve doesn't wobble / leak / beat itself up... or leak oil into the combustion chamber. Not too tight though, don't want anything to seize.

And having good valve springs - enough pressure on seat & open to keep valves floating, and plenty of extra room so they don't bind. But not so much pressure they wipe out the cam lobes / valve lifters.... etc etc etc

And having enough compression to build power, but not so much it detonates. Is WAY better to be down a half point in compression than to have a half point too much that it detonates.... next to oil starvation, nothing will kill a motor faster than detonation....


Anyways! good luck with your build. Keep us posted :)

PS. Oh yeah, one last basic thing about building engines I've learned - clean clean clean ! And clean it some more! Just don't fuck up the surfaces while you clean :)
 

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Things like ring seal / having low leakdown numbers. Pulling a ton of air & fuel into a cylinder is pointless if most of it slips by the rings.
If I end up replacing the rings, I might as well buy a new piston set. So I wouldn't have to worry about the rings/pistons for a long time.

Looks like Wiseco has affordable sets like - Wiseco Forged Piston Kit - 13.5:1 Standard Bore 73.40mm # CK190. Are Wiseco pistons good value for the money or do you recommend JE, CP...?
 

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je or cp

if you are purchasing pistons i would make a 1070 it is HUGE diff in power/torque
jason
Yeah, but new nikasil treatment costs a lot and I don't know if I would have to send the block to Sweden for recoating. :dunno
And there is already a huge power difference between the old K1 750 engine and K5 1000 engine. :)
 

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Worry about the ring seal first!

If the stock pistons are OK, I'd just put on new rings. I wouldn't do aftermarket pistons for Std bore, especially since it sounds like you have the ability to mill head / block to get the compression up.

But like I said, with new rings, you'll need to clean up the cylinder walls. At least deglaze them.

That applies whenever you are running new rings, REGARDLESS of whether those rings are running on OEM or aftermarket pistons.



Now, how to clean up the cyl walls on a used block for the new rings, as I said before, I'm not the person to ask here.... I've always just ended up having the block bored / replated (for oversize 1070's), or having the block replated if it was already at 76mm (the 1070 bore size). I just have Millenium do all the work, and when its replated, its honed obviously.

So ask around here for what to do. Some might recommend getting a nikasil compatible brush hone and spinning it with a drill, some might recommend a cleanup with something as simple as a scotchbrite pad by hand.

I DO know, for sure, you do NOT want to use a hone designed for standard iron/steel liners.... !!! Or a el cheapo 2 or 3 arm hone from a regular parts store (which is designed for the same thing - iron/steel liners) !! I've heard that over and over.......



The nikasil used, or Suzuki's own in-house version of it, is too hard for those hones to touch....

Anyways. I just am trying to make the point that if you put new rings in that used bore, w/o cylinder wall prep, you will NOT be happy with results. Most likely you'll have excessive oil consumption and leakdown. Both of which are gonna kill power, hurt longevity.



If you can get the block replated / bored, I'd highly recommend going with a 1070 kit.

These engines REALLY like the 1070. It will make more torque / power everywhere, AND the neat thing is that the head actually breathes better! With the stock head, the outside edges of the valves run pretty close to the cyl bore, effectively "shrouding" them and reducing their flow.

But with the bigger cyl bore, the cyl walls are farther from the valves, and the valves have more open room to breath through - less shrouding. Hence, the head flows better! That's a big win-win in my book - bigger displacement AND a head that flows better effectively!



Along with that, if you go that route, I'd highly recommend NOT going Wiseco. I'm not going to say their stuff is "junk".... but.... I think they're designs are based on old technology. they seem to keep working with old designs and pushing them out the door.


I'd recommend CP, with JE second. I used JE's on a few builds, they worked out decent, but on my last build (K8 1070) I went with CP, and they really had some neat designs. CP seems to be constantly updating their designs, always striving to make them better.

Btw, my 76mm CP pistons were, according to my memory, the same weight as the stock bore K8 pistons..... (fully loaded pistons - with all rings, clips, etc). The short slipper design with Teflon / antifriction coating on the skirts was a nice touch



So, I hate to give answers that are mostly more question than answers... but that's how this shit goes.....
 

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Sorry for the double post, but I thought it would be easier to have it broken out as a separate post anyways

JK - you mentioned the fuel you are running is 98RON. I'm assuming this is 98 Research Octane Number.

Do you know what the MOTOR octane number is??

Here in the USA, we judge our fuel (at least the pump fuel) on the AVERAGE of Research & Motor octane. You can see it at the pumps.... expressed as (R+M)/2



Btw, for anyone not familiar with how that works, here's a little run down. I'm no chemist / fuel engineer so take all this with a grain of salt....

The RESEARCH number is based on the theoretical octane number of the fuel. IE, the chemists look at the structure / mix of the fuel (and fuels are a wide mix of different chemicals, in various proportions/qualities), and predict what it SHOULD have as octane.

The MOTOR octane number is what the test lab determines is the octane number based on a test engine which has a variable compression ratio (not sure on the technical details of how they accomplish this, but I believe the test engine has a way of changing combustion chamber volume). They keep upping the compression ratio until the engine detonates, and then based on that CR, they calculate the octane rating of the fuel. I think, but do not know, that the test engine may represent a "worst case scenario" for detonation. IE, there are a lot of things in an engine that can allow it to run higher compression ratio with the same fuel (which is what race engine builders strive for). The inverse of that is the opposite - there are conditions which make an engine MORE prone to detonation.

Situations that make an engine MORE likely to detonate - having a wide open combustion chamber with wide piston to head clearance, so there is effectively no "squish area" at the edges to increase turbulence. Having a large diameter bore (which means it takes more time for the air/fuel to burn across the cylinder, giving more time for the heat of combustion to heat soak the fuel/air at the peripheral edges of the cylinder, before the flame front has a chance to reach that area, getting the fuel/air mixture to explode - detonate - rather than burn)

Advanced engine timing (more advanced = more likely to detonate)

Low RPM's - low rpm means less turbulence in the combustion chamber, meaning the flame front again travels slower, again aiding detonation conditions.

Etc etc.



So anyways, it seems like the (R+M)/2 method is a mix of theoretical vs worst case actual results, which is why they mix them / average them.... with the assumption being, I believe, that a real world engine will see a result somewhere in the middle

So, like I said, it would be useful to know the Motor octane number so the average (R+M) octane could be calculated, I think that would help give an idea of how much compression your engine will ACTUALLY be able to tolerate given the fuel you are running.



Side notes - are you running race fuel or is that the premium pump fuel you have available? It seems to me that GOOD race fuel can run higher compression ratios than what you'd predict looking at the octane numbers. Why this works, I don't know, I don't understand..... and i'm no chemist / engine engineer so I can't explain it. But I have seen some race motors running on good oxygenated race gas that was say 91 octane, and running great, while if you put 91 octane premium pump gas in it, and retuned the fueling, it might detonate like a bastard and pop the pistons, rods, head gasket, etc.



As a further note, I will say that my K8 1070 is running about 13.9:1 compression (actual, measured), and runs great on 92 octane pump premium. No detonation I can detect at all.

AND that includes running it in what is basically a "worst case scenario" for that engine - running it on a braked, factory pro dyno (where the dyno can apply load and hold the engine at a certain RPM, even at full throttle, and the engine is held there at that setting for 5, 10 seconds to let the gas readings stabilize). That's 100% load, which the engine will never effectively see in real world use. The engine will always be accelerating a little bit.... I mean, I just don't have a place where I could accelerate the bike to near top speed (which would take about a mile), and then hold it there wide open for another 1/4 mile or more.....

AND, when that was done, the temp conditions couldn't have been worse. We're talking about 95 deg air temp inside the shop, and the bike had been running for about an hour on the dyno (with small pauses between runs to let the temps come down a bit) - so the engine is at full temp, 200-210 coolant, hot oil, and the whole thing is completely heat soaked....

Also, I was having trouble with the USB connector that goes between the Bazzaz and the laptop, so I didn't have a chance to make all the fueling changes I wanted.

Based on the gas readings, the engine wanted 10 to 15% more fuel on top end for max power (determined after the dyno run)

So, the thing made GREAT power, and if it was going to detonate, ever, it would have done it then.... and it didn't.... You can get light detonation, that you can't hear / feel... but it will cost power and make the motor overheat. None of that occurred.




Anyways. Just an example of running fairly high compression w/o a ton of octane, but getting good / great results. But, at the same time, I built the engine with a tight PTH clearance (about .028), the 76mm bore allows a fair amount of squish area at the edges, and I'm running decently long duration cams (248 deg intake, 241 deg exhaust), timed at 107/109, which bleed down some cylinder pressure at lower RPM's due to reversion........ the cylinder pressure builds more as RPM's go up, and the ram air effect starts occurring, but by that time the higher RPM's are increasing turbulence, so the mixture burns better.... and there is less time for detonation...


Btw, there are a lot of intelligent people on here, if anyone knows better & sees errors in my thinking / explanation of the above (esp relating to research v motor octane), I invite you to make corrections...... sincerely. I enjoy learning about this stuff, and half of learning is figuring what you DONT know...... and think you do
 

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Worry about the ring seal first!

If the stock pistons are OK, I'd just put on new rings. I wouldn't do aftermarket pistons for Std bore, especially since it sounds like you have the ability to mill head / block to get the compression up.

But like I said, with new rings, you'll need to clean up the cylinder walls. At least deglaze them.

That applies whenever you are running new rings, REGARDLESS of whether those rings are running on OEM or aftermarket pistons.

JK - you mentioned the fuel you are running is 98RON. I'm assuming this is 98 Research Octane Number.

Do you know what the MOTOR octane number is??

Here in the USA, we judge our fuel (at least the pump fuel) on the AVERAGE of Research & Motor octane. You can see it at the pumps.... expressed as (R+M)/2
Thanks!

Deglazing was/is on to do list, but I need to ask around about boring and replating. I'm going to replace the rings and found some cheap Wiseco sets ($422), but like you said, people don't recommend Wiseco pistons. So I probably just get new rings and mill head/block. Pistons are in good condition, but some say K5-K6 pistons are not the strongest there is, but hopefully they will last another 50 000km. :biggrin

98RON is ~89-90MON -> 91-92 octane and that's normal pump gas.
 

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if you have to use used pistons find a set of 07-08 they are a bit stronger accross the dome.

jason
+1 on that, I was thinking the same thing!

Jason / Karns - Q for you, b/c I don't know (and its good information to have), is the compression height different between the K5/6 and K7/8 pistons? IE, the distance from the piston pin centerline to the top of the piston?

I just wondered what the difference would be in terms of compression & PTH putting the K7/8 pistons in the K5/6 block. I know the K7/8 was supposed to have slightly higher compression than the K5/6, (only .3, but still, its a little), but I wasn't sure if that difference was due to piston height, piston pocket volume, or combustion chamber volume.....

Either way, if the block/head hasn't been milled yet, or has only had a tiny cut, I'm sure this could be made to work in terms of CR..... I was just curious about where the difference came from

Also, are there are significant differences in the valve pockets on the K7/8 pistons versus the K5/6? IE, if you start doing a build, do you need to flycut the valve pockets wider/deeper than usual for PTV clearance?? Since the cams here are not radical, I doubt this would be an issue... but am just curious for my own knowledge :)



On a related note, yes, I had heard of some K5/6 pistons cracking (across the center, dome area). It seemed to me that I mainly heard about this with endurance race engines - which is always a worst case scenario for engine parts (well, other than severe neglect, oil starvation, detonation).

Endurance race engines get high loads, high temps, high RPMs for extended periods of time... and usually running at least somewhat higher compression (tho, a good engine builder will probably run lower compression on one of these versus a sprint race engine)

Anyways. So my last question is, besides endurance race engines, is the K5/6 piston cracking issue that significant? Does it happen that often? Is it the sort of thing that a guy doing some street and trackdays should worry about? Or a club racer...?



I did a lot of work on my K4's (had 2 full trackbikes and a TON of spares).... and then lost all those in a housefire

So I jumped up to a K8 trackbike. So because of that, I know the K4's and K8's pretty well, but I skipped over the K5/6 generation... so I just haven't researched them heavily.......
 

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+1 on that, I was thinking the same thing!

Jason / Karns - Q for you, b/c I don't know (and its good information to have), is the compression height different between the K5/6 and K7/8 pistons? IE, the distance from the piston pin centerline to the top of the piston?

I just wondered what the difference would be in terms of compression & PTH putting the K7/8 pistons in the K5/6 block. I know the K7/8 was supposed to have slightly higher compression than the K5/6, (only .3, but still, its a little), but I wasn't sure if that difference was due to piston height, piston pocket volume, or combustion chamber volume.....

Either way, if the block/head hasn't been milled yet, or has only had a tiny cut, I'm sure this could be made to work in terms of CR..... I was just curious about where the difference came from

Also, are there are significant differences in the valve pockets on the K7/8 pistons versus the K5/6? IE, if you start doing a build, do you need to flycut the valve pockets wider/deeper than usual for PTV clearance?? Since the cams here are not radical, I doubt this would be an issue... but am just curious for my own knowledge :)



On a related note, yes, I had heard of some K5/6 pistons cracking (across the center, dome area). It seemed to me that I mainly heard about this with endurance race engines - which is always a worst case scenario for engine parts (well, other than severe neglect, oil starvation, detonation).

Endurance race engines get high loads, high temps, high RPMs for extended periods of time... and usually running at least somewhat higher compression (tho, a good engine builder will probably run lower compression on one of these versus a sprint race engine)

Anyways. So my last question is, besides endurance race engines, is the K5/6 piston cracking issue that significant? Does it happen that often? Is it the sort of thing that a guy doing some street and trackdays should worry about? Or a club racer...?



I did a lot of work on my K4's (had 2 full trackbikes and a TON of spares).... and then lost all those in a housefire

So I jumped up to a K8 trackbike. So because of that, I know the K4's and K8's pretty well, but I skipped over the K5/6 generation... so I just haven't researched them heavily.......
there isnt a significant diff in the pistons and we have droped them in the o5 motors for production classes the dome is a little thicker

i have not measured the pockets - didnt need to the engine still had way over the min for p/v

i have personaly seen the 05/06 pistons crack across the dome on one stock engine and one with bumped compression-we didnt build but did tear down.

jason
 

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Can you sleeve the 1000 instead of replating, I have been considering a 1070. Saw they have them at Orient express? Have got the same problem replating is super expensive here.

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Monkey, theres basically no fucking way i'd sleeve a GSXR1000. Just personal opinion, but I feel pretty strongly about that (see note below for possible exception). If the cylinder walls are worn, I'd have them replated. Some damage can be repaired too (via welding, Millenium is good about this).

If the block is so damaged that it can't be easily repaired, then just get another set of engine cases!! This isn't like say a 1962 Ferrari V12 where another set of cases isn't available, and you simply HAVE TO repair the old parts...


Sleeving one of these engines would destroy a lot of whats GOOD about these engines. Be quite counterproductive. Why??

1. cylinder block / cylinder case integrity and strength. Having the cylinder block (where the pistons run) and the lower engine case together in one piece makes the whole assembly more rigid, stronger, for the any given weight. the two support each other, and this means they're stiffer in combination than they would be alone. If the two parts were separate, you'd have to have each one made heavier to support itself

Having the cylinder walls as part of the cylinder block (upper section of the case) makes the cylinders more rigid, strong, which means the cylinder bores remain more round, and the cylinder deck stays more flat. This helps ring seal & headgasket life



2. If you put in separate liners, they can, or will, move. May not be much, but they will do something.... Which could hurt cylinder / ring sealing, promote cooling leaks, etc. This is why on the old GSXR1100W's the popular / best thing to do was to bore the stock cylinder block liners out to 1146cc. The 1100W ran a separate cyl block, and had iron/steel sleeves in it from the factory.

You could go out to 1206cc by taking the stock cyl block and boring it out, putting in bigger aftermarket liners, but I've heard that this was a "race only" mod. I've heard that the 1206cc engines weren't that streetable.... the liners tended to shift some, and the block didn't have as much integrity / rigidity as it did before, so the liners tended to shift horizontally & vertically.

Anyways, from what I heard about the 1206cc kits, I was told (by people who know) that the engine will either



A - blow one headgasket quickly, and then the replacement will last a long time, or

B - the engine will just go through headgaskets on a semi regular basis, and you will either have to do them on a set schedule (based on hours / miles) or deal with the issues of having a blown headgasket (ie, breaking down by side of road, overheating, worse yet getting hydrolock w/ cylinder full of coolant after a shutdown). Not to mention the corrosion issues that can happen with the bottom end when the headgasket goes and the bottom end gets a bunch of coolant in it..... bearings in particular aint happy about that

I used to have a decently built, 7/11 GSXR1100W (1994 750 chassis, 96 1100 motor) with a ton of nice parts on it, built by a mechanic from Chuck Graves Motorsports, and he had scavenged a ton of ex FUSA parts to put on it, so I'm kinda familiar with those engines.



3. I think that one of the BEST things about these motors is that they run integral cylinder walls (the walls are cast along with the cylinder block, which means they are the same material as the rest of the block - which is aluminum).

Why is this important & useful??

heat expansion & piston/ring seal!

Ok, aluminum has about twice the heat expansion ratio of iron/steel. If you run an aluminum piston in an iron/steel liner, the piston expands in diameter much more than the bore of the cylinder grows. This is aggravated by the fact that the piston always runs hotter than the bore as well.

So, aluminum piston in an iron/steel liner has to have a LOT bigger piston/wall clearance. This is so the piston doesn't grow so big that it seizes inside the cyl bore. This clearance will be the biggest at room temp, and will decrease as the engine warms up, but still, its a fair amount bigger. And, this extra clearance is just more room for pressurized air/fuel or exhaust to blow by, meaning its just that more load the piston rings have to take on, and try to seal. And, when the engine is cold, the bigger clearance just gives the piston more room to rock back and forth, which doesn't do any favors for its ring lands / skirts / rings

Forged aluminum pistons (vs cast or hypereutectic -high silicone content) make this worse, b/c forged pistons have an even bigger expansion ratio, hence requiring more cold clearance.

With the cylinder walls & piston made out of same material, the piston to wall clearance can be made much tighter, since the expansion ratios are about the same (the piston will expand faster anyways, due to higher heat, but its WAY closer than alum piston vs iron/steel liner).

This allows piston/wall clearances down to .0015 or .002"..... that's pretty damn tight! Certainly helps the rings seal, in my opinion.... the piston is so big relative to the bore that theres just a lot less gap on the side that the pressure COULD get by. And the pistons don't rock back and forth so much either, esp cold.



4. The plated aluminum cyl bores (whether nikasil, or one of the OEM versions, like Kawasaki's Electrofusion, etc), they ARE more of a pain to deal with when they get really worn / need to be freshened up, BUT..... they have a ton of benefits, which I think outweigh the negatives

Hardness - the plating is so hard it almost doesn't wear at all. You can have an engine with over 50K on it, and still see the original crosshatch. When you "freshen up" one of these bores w/o replating, basically all you're doing is removing the built up oil glaze that's burned itself into the crosshatch....

These bores CAN get damaged - worn or chipped plating, deep grooves, etc, but usually that's from abuse - seizing piston, ingestion of foreign material (dirt, sand, stray parts...!). if you tear up the plating on one of these, well, I doubt there is much out there that would have taken it any better.

Iron / steel liners wear over time - they tend to get tapered (bigger diameter at top, where the rings run the most / where the rings get the most load), and smaller diameter - less wear - at bottom.

With these plated cylinders, and the fact that they wear so very very little, the bore stays far more consistent in diameter from top to bottom.... which certainly helps ring seal, not to mention keeping the piston/wall clearance in check.......



5. The piston rings on these engines are not meant to work with iron/steel liners. This is a minor point, but could have some significance. Might not make a difference either, BUT, if I WERE to sleeve one of these engines, and was putting in aftermarket pistons, I'd tell the manufacturer, just to make sure the rings were going to work well with this material instead of the usual plated bore..........

Anyways!! I could write more, but as usual, I've said enough for now. Just some things to think about...................



PS. The ONLY time I'd PERSONALLY consider sleeving one of these engines is if it was trying to do a really wild build - going for some huge bore size.

But honestly, the bore spacing is tight enough on these motors that even with the 76mm bore size (what people usu call +3mm), the walls between cylinders is starting to get pretty thin. I've heard of KWS, and maybe other people going with 5x6 motors (5mm overbore, 6mm stroke) but that's gotta have SUPER thin cylinder walls between cylinders. I know KWS said they were running pins through the side of the block, pushing against the side of the liner, just trying to keep it in place, but like I said, its gotta be super thin between the individual cylinders.

And, I believe they preferred, or would only use, K1-K2 blocks due to thicker cylinder walls (at least on the bottom ends of the bores, b/c they lacked the big windage holes down there in the K3+ engines which helped build HP by allowing air to flow easier between cylinders beneath the pistons, reducing crankcase windage / drag)

So, to go above 78mm bore on the 1K, I think you'd have to go REALLY radical on the engine. Offset the bores (move centerlines of outer cylinder bores sideways, which has a bunch of effects in relation to piston design, cyl head design, etc etc), AND put in aftermarket cylinder liners...... And kiss any streetability goodbye, you wont have enough coolant flow around those liners to work, I doubt, besides maybe a 5 mile ride......




Anyways. Once you got to that point, you're getting into really exotic stuff like building a top fuel, top end drag bike, like what guys do with KZ1000's, GS1100's, etc. And stuff like that can get into situations where damn near the WHOLE ENGINE is aftermarket. Like even the cases, cylinder blocks, heads etc are all made aftermarket... a lot of billet CNC stuff.... NOT reworked factory stuff.
 

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Btw, there are a lot of intelligent people on here, if anyone knows better & sees errors in my thinking / explanation of the above (esp relating to research v motor octane), I invite you to make corrections...... sincerely. I enjoy learning about this stuff, and half of learning is figuring what you DONT know...... and think you do
I don't know what you are talking about most of the time, but I like it!
 

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Thanks for your thoughts IR, I have a second engine that has 2 melted pistons, they charge $900 A CYLINDER for plating here. so $3600 to get an engine replated. Cases are also not so readily available as in the US. By comparison sleeving seems quite cheap. A bit worried about hitting water jackets. I sleeved one of my dirt bikes after a rod let go and it ran great ever since... you might be onto something with the thermal expansion though but it wouldn't be a street engine anyway so perhaps it could be ok. Don't want to go stroker or anything just 1070 to get the engine back in the game. Interested to hear from someone who has done it, guess it might not be worth the trouble...
 

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Thanks for your thoughts IR, I have a second engine that has 2 melted pistons, they charge $900 A CYLINDER for plating here. so $3600 to get an engine replated. Cases are also not so readily available as in the US. By comparison sleeving seems quite cheap. A bit worried about hitting water jackets. I sleeved one of my dirt bikes after a rod let go and it ran great ever since... you might be onto something with the thermal expansion though but it wouldn't be a street engine anyway so perhaps it could be ok. Don't want to go stroker or anything just 1070 to get the engine back in the game. Interested to hear from someone who has done it, guess it might not be worth the trouble...
Fuck it, I'm sending you PM
 

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Thanks for your thoughts IR, I have a second engine that has 2 melted pistons, they charge $900 A CYLINDER for plating here. so $3600 to get an engine replated. Cases are also not so readily available as in the US. By comparison sleeving seems quite cheap. A bit worried about hitting water jackets. I sleeved one of my dirt bikes after a rod let go and it ran great ever since... you might be onto something with the thermal expansion though but it wouldn't be a street engine anyway so perhaps it could be ok. Don't want to go stroker or anything just 1070 to get the engine back in the game. Interested to hear from someone who has done it, guess it might not be worth the trouble...
Well Mr Monkey and I had a few interesting PMs. Sorry for the double post, but hey Monkey, clean out your PM inbox, I tried to send you something else and it kicked it back to me

But either way, if you call those people we discussed..... let me know what they say. I always like to learn... and it gives me better information to answer the next person with similar questions :)
 

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That's the way to do it. Just bite the bullet and pay the shipping. Those guys in Oz have got to be kidding at that price. Good chance they are not doing as good a job as Millenium either, although that's just speculation. I wouldn't take a chance with them even if they had competitive pricing unless they had a proven track record.
 
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