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You use the same general technique on all bikes. Hanging off decreases the lean angle required to make the turn. LOOK where you want to go, not at your gauges, not at your bike, especially not at the ground. Counter steer through the corner. To anyone who says they don't counter steer, if you ride your bike above 20mph and make corners, yes you do. It's literally impossible to turn at speed without counter steering. The "I just lean it in bro" is bullshit. Whether you know it or not, you're counter steering. This is elementary stuff dude, every person on 2 wheels should know this by now. You should be doing this all the time, no matter what bike you're riding. You may not HAVE to hang off, but all you're doing by not hanging off is increasing your risk.
Well said. Hanging off is a body position technique used to help REDUCE overall lean angle. By hanging off you are able to keep the bike more upright which reduces lean angle and provides more traction. It is not a steering technique. The only way to steer a motorcycle at speeds above 15-20mph'ish is to counter-steer. Counter-steering simply means if you want to right you PUSH ON THE RIGHT BAR (or pull on the left) but for simplicity sake, you push right to go right and you push left to go left.

Now where is where riders often make mistakes.....how LONG do you have to keep pressure on the handlebar? Do you counter-steer all the way through the corner? (Hold bar pressure all the way through the turn) or do you press on the bar to initiate steering and then release the pressure on the bar?
 

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Riding since 1973 doesn’t mean you know how to ride. I know Harley riders who have been riding just as long who believe that using the front brake will kill you.
There are times when you can only use the rear brakes. You are John Wick, on a Ducati, making a left handed U-turn on a 2 lane iron bridge while your right hand is firing a Walther P99 trying to avoid the Russian Mob.

On a more serious note, this video is the reason I started working on low speed figure 8s. As you can see, you can only use the rear brake while left handed. And you are pretty much in a constant lean and counter steer from what looks like anything from 5 mph and up. Anything that is not a straight line, pretty much. And a constant figure 8 within just the 2 parking spots (18') means you will be in a steady state of lock to lock. Rear brakes off/on, lock to lock, push/pull on the same bar and use the body like crazy.

Try it. It is a blast. And it all transfers to counter steering at higher speeds.

 

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^^^^ Actually a great example of what we're discussing. It's subtle, but during these slow speed maneuvers you can see these riders counter-leaning (leaning opposite of the bike). What you really can't see, and what's very important on the heavy V-twin cruiser is clutch control. Slipping the clutch is more important to these tight turns than the rear brake.

When I'm riding my Street Glide, I use the rear brake and slip the clutch for all the slow speed stuff. And I counter-lean.
 

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Couldn't agree with this anymore or said it any better. I could not add anything else except leaning down and kissing the inside mirror should help a bit in some higher speed counter steering.

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Gunna have to disagree with you a little there. This isn't dangerous however doesn't provide any benefit other than maybe feeling more safe. Leaning forward towards the mirror changes your center of gravity and while cornering you want your center of gravity in the center on your bike. You want both front and rear suspension to share the load. I know there are Moto GP riders who do this and it works for them but if they kept their center of gravity and riding position centered they might win more:wink2:. Furthermore you want to lean OFF left or right not forward. I do want to point out "tucking: is not the same as shifting/leaning forward.
 

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^^^^ Actually a great example of what we're discussing. It's subtle, but during these slow speed maneuvers you can see these riders counter-leaning (leaning opposite of the bike). What you really can't see, and what's very important on the heavy V-twin cruiser is clutch control. Slipping the clutch is more important to these tight turns than the rear brake.

When I'm riding my Street Glide, I use the rear brake and slip the clutch for all the slow speed stuff. And I counter-lean.
And this is exactly what I mean by we do things our own way. Kind of similar riding but not. I use the friction zone a lot also. And the counter lean is very important. Until you do the figure 8 with no hands. Some times I use rear trail braking. Some times I do not. There is counter steering in MotoGymkhana. And than there is counter steering in MotoGP. Sometimes you sit off the seat. Sometimes you don't. Sometimes you kiss the mirror. Other times, you lean over the side. There is no one way to do things. And we all have different styles. You do you, and what works for you. And one's progress is different not only to other people but to yourself. Your style changes every year. Well, mine do anyway.

And yes, I was slipping the clutch a lot when I started MotoGymkhana. It took 3 months and a lot of broken plastics and an engine guard before I was able to do the figure 8s in only 4 parking spaces (18' wide), one handed with only the back brakes. And left handed figure 8s mean you can NOT use the front brakes and right handed figure 8s mean you can NOT use the friction zone/clutch. It's all good and you do what works for you and gets you from Point A to Point B.

In case you think I am crazy about the no handed figure 8s, here is the video that started me on MotoGymkhana. At 4 minutes is where he starts to do the figure 8s within 4 parking spots. Except i do mine where they all touch so much tighter. And I do mine with only one hand. Give that a try, boys and girls.

 

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Duh, sorry, the no hands was the weaving between the cones. The figures 8s, I have not been able to figure out how to do without both hands. If you have a video please let me know
 

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Gunna have to disagree with you a little there. This isn't dangerous however doesn't provide any benefit other than maybe feeling more safe. Leaning forward towards the mirror changes your center of gravity and while cornering you want your center of gravity in the center on your bike. You want both front and rear suspension to share the load. I know there are Moto GP riders who do this and it works for them but if they kept their center of gravity and riding position centered they might win more:wink2:. Furthermore you want to lean OFF left or right not forward. I do want to point out "tucking: is not the same as shifting/leaning forward.
Guess, where the weight and the center of gravity goes when you are at lean and increasing your speed out of a turn? Yes, to the back of the tire.

Guess, what happens when you "kiss the mirror" - technically called weighting the front tire? You transfer about 20 - 40 lbs back to the front.

And what does that do? It balances the bike. I think we are saying the same thing.

And the legendary Keith Code states on page 59 of "A Twist of the Wrist II" that "Weight on the front end helps the bike hook into the turn", so extra weight on the front is really not a bad thing, while speeding like a demon in a turn and holding a line. Guessing that is why so many Pros do that.

Yes you are free to disagree with pretty much many of the professional riders, many of the teaching schools and a principal so common it is actually called "kissing the mirror" because we are all different. Just because it works for other people doesn't mean it will work you. And that is what we are helping the OP with.

So, we are kind of agreeing with each other, it just sounds like we are not. Crazy, huh?
 

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I'm pretty sure "kissing the mirror" is less about leaning forward and more about not getting crossed up. I'm amazed at how many videos I see of track guys where their hips are way over into the turn, but their head is on the outside relative to the bike's centerline. It also helps to enforce looking through the turn.
 

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How you control a two-wheeled vehicle (don't care what it is) as slow speeds is not applicable at fast speeds. MSF classes teach control. MotoGymkhana is a place to compete and display superior control. Track riding or schools teach you how to ride fast.

Just look at the thumbnail of the video Revster posted. That rider is steering INTO the turn. Rear brakes are used to control speed, reduce driveline lash, and make it easier to use the throttle. At speed, you actually turning AWAY from the turn (counter-steering) and rear brakes are seldom if ever used.

As stated, you push on the grip that is on the inside of the turn to initiate (turn-in), then your weight moves to the inside (lean). Once the lean is correct, pressure on the bars should decrease (neutral steering) as you apply (maintenance) throttle.
 

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Both are control. The characteristics of that change when momentum becomes stronger than gravity.
Dude, what a totally inane and useless thing to say. Can anything else more useless be shared? Well how about:

You have to learn to ride before you tell someone how to ride
One handed figure 8s are counter steering but that video of one handed 8s is not counter steering
Yes, the rider in the front is only using his rear brakes but the one in back in using only the friction zone
Kissing the mirror does not put you on the correct side of the tank as it prevents you from being on the wrong side of the tank.

And now, it is all about control but the way you control it changes when you get faster. Well, duh, yes, we get your modus operandus by now. You are Yoda. Or Yoda's "Short Bus" Kid Brother.

Come on, will you please get off everyone's gonads, cause mine is already sore. Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

So, is that another 2019 thing to say?
 

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How you control a two-wheeled vehicle (don't care what it is) as slow speeds is not applicable at fast speeds. MSF classes teach control. MotoGymkhana is a place to compete and display superior control. Track riding or schools teach you how to ride fast.

Just look at the thumbnail of the video Revster posted. That rider is steering INTO the turn. Rear brakes are used to control speed, reduce driveline lash, and make it easier to use the throttle. At speed, you actually turning AWAY from the turn (counter-steering) and rear brakes are seldom if ever used.

As stated, you push on the grip that is on the inside of the turn to initiate (turn-in), then your weight moves to the inside (lean). Once the lean is correct, pressure on the bars should decrease (neutral steering) as you apply (maintenance) throttle.
This is all good stuff. Thanks for sharing as it gave me a new perspective on how to deliver a simple message on a complicated topic.

This video helps you look at "Life At Lean" in a whole new perspective. Looks like a GSXR750 with bars, engine guard and plastics removed. Back brakes are used only on the slower turns and front brakes are used on the faster ones but you lose more control and stability.

 

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So you post this video to prove your point still don't understand the concepts. This guy leans forward under hard acceleration but stays upright on all his turns. They're using directional steering and counter lean in all of these slow speed maneuvers. They used counter-steer maybe 2 times in the whole video. So, why aren't they leaning forward and hanging off the inside in all of these turns?

Control characteristics change. Slow you counter lean so the bike can lean more. Fast, you lean in to keep the bike from leaning. Both are balanced and both are examples of controlling the motorcycle. You say we do things our own way, and you're right to a degree. But there are also good techniques and bad techniques. At the same speed and doing the same maneuvers I ride very differently on my Harley and my GSX-R. What stays consistent is the techniques of steering and lean. Clutch, brake, and throttle use changes because of the differences in the bikes. This tread was about lean and steering and the OP was asking about what technique do the riders prefer. Lean or counter-steer. Two types of steering and two types of lean depending on the circumstances. You try and use the video of the one handed figure 8 as your example of different techniques. Forget the controls and look at the steering and lean. Neither are counter steering and both are counter leaning.
 

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99% of the riders on this forum are either street or track riding. In those environments, you MUST counter-steer. On the track or fast street riding you MUST lean your body as well or you will start dragging hard parts and crash. This parking lot nonsense is just adding confusion. I could care less about how fast I can zip around cones.
 

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Dude, what a totally inane and useless thing to say. Can anything else more useless be shared? Well how about:

You have to learn to ride before you tell someone how to ride
One handed figure 8s are counter steering but that video of one handed 8s is not counter steering
Yes, the rider in the front is only using his rear brakes but the one in back in using only the friction zone
Kissing the mirror does not put you on the correct side of the tank as it prevents you from being on the wrong side of the tank.

And now, it is all about control but the way you control it changes when you get faster. Well, duh, yes, we get your modus operandus by now. You are Yoda. Or Yoda's "Short Bus" Kid Brother.

Come on, will you please get off everyone's gonads, cause mine is already sore. Sorry, had to get that off my chest.

So, is that another 2019 thing to say?
:lmao:lmao:cheers Thank you for making my morning at work!!!!
 

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there are 3 ways to get a bike to turn: weight transfer (lean off); steering input; leaning the bike over;

counter steering is used to control the bike and keep it from sliding out from underneath you!

I've spent most of my riding career counter-steering but, when I feel brave I turn it in on the front tire a bit and let the carving happen!
 

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there are 3 ways to get a bike to turn: weight transfer (lean off); steering input; leaning the bike over;

counter steering is used to control the bike and keep it from sliding out from underneath you!

I've spent most of my riding career counter-steering but, when I feel brave I turn it in on the front tire a bit and let the carving happen!
Holy shit please someone close the post :gaah
 
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