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post #1 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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Power commander V help....

Hello everyone!

Just like to add I love this forum, and all the knowledge being passed on! With that being said i decided to out a power commander in my bike after putting on a tbr M2 slip on with cat delete and a K&N high flow air filter. I do plan on putting aftermarket headers this up coming off season. As far as the power commander goes I went ahead and got the auto tune (AT-200) to go along with the power commander, this upcoming week I have scheduled to get the bike on the dyno to get a custom map tune for the bike by a professional( he did racing in Europe for 12 years) would I need the auto tune after the dyno custom map? Or would the ECU be able to compensate for the changes?
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post #2 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 02:59 AM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Welcome ... wrong section for ‘please help’ , this is intro’s only.

Find the right section for specific model
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post #3 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Power commander V help....

Ok sorry! I'll get it fixed
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post #4 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 01:54 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Quote:
Originally Posted by K7gixx750 View Post
Hello everyone!

Just like to add I love this forum, and all the knowledge being passed on! With that being said i decided to out a power commander in my bike after putting on a tbr M2 slip on with cat delete and a K&N high flow air filter. I do plan on putting aftermarket headers this up coming off season. As far as the power commander goes I went ahead and got the auto tune (AT-200) to go along with the power commander, this upcoming week I have scheduled to get the bike on the dyno to get a custom map tune for the bike by a professional( he did racing in Europe for 12 years) would I need the auto tune after the dyno custom map? Or would the ECU be able to compensate for the changes?
1. Throw that K&N in the trash or return it. It makes less power than stock and is just a waste of money.
2. You only get auto tuners if you cannot have the bike Dyno tuned. Otherwise, an auto tuner is inferior to an actual tune.
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post #5 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 03:53 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Throw the 2bro exhaust out, too. lol

Don't bother with autotune after a real tune. The ECU always wants to fuel the bike as if it has the cat converter and stock filter. The PCV corrects that ECU input for the lack thereof. IF the tuner is a pro, the autotune would just fuck with the work he did that you paid good money for.
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post #6 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 04:38 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

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Originally Posted by Just_Nick View Post
1. Throw that K&N in the trash or return it. It makes less power than stock and is just a waste of money.
2. You only get auto tuners if you cannot have the bike Dyno tuned. Otherwise, an auto tuner is inferior to an actual tune.
I have just had my k7 750 serviced and discovered that it had a k and n air filter in it. It was cleaned and put back in. My bike still
has the stock exhaust on it. Am I likely to see much difference with an oem filter in it? I only ride on the road. I have no idea how long the bike has had
the k and n in it. I remember this exact same argument on the fireblade forums when I had that tuned with a pcv and end can,
and a k and n air filter. Lot of people said oem is best, lot of people said k and n, the guy who did the tuning is a professional racer and tuner
working for professional tuners and k and n is their go to filter for tuning.

If there is evidence to suggest putting an oem filter back in with the stock pipe is worth doing I am happy to give it a go.

One day though I expect I will replace the stock exhaust with an end can and de cat etc. though. Maybe put oem back in until
then? Especially if I then get that tuned.
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post #7 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 05:43 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Sportbikes run great from the factory. The closer it is to factory, the better it will run if cost factors in. Changing stuff can get better performance, bet every time you change a parameter, you gotta tweak two more, it seems. Your but dyno will see no difference between filters.
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post #8 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-12-2019, 09:07 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

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Originally Posted by thegsl View Post
I have just had my k7 750 serviced and discovered that it had a k and n air filter in it. It was cleaned and put back in. My bike still
has the stock exhaust on it. Am I likely to see much difference with an oem filter in it? I only ride on the road. I have no idea how long the bike has had
the k and n in it. I remember this exact same argument on the fireblade forums when I had that tuned with a pcv and end can,
and a k and n air filter. Lot of people said oem is best, lot of people said k and n, the guy who did the tuning is a professional racer and tuner
working for professional tuners and k and n is their go to filter for tuning.

If there is evidence to suggest putting an oem filter back in with the stock pipe is worth doing I am happy to give it a go.

One day though I expect I will replace the stock exhaust with an end can and de cat etc. though. Maybe put oem back in until
then? Especially if I then get that tuned.
Every bike and vehicle is different. The Fireblade might pick up power, but a dyno would tell you that. My GTO picked up 5whp from swapping to a K&N filter alone in the stock box on a dyno. VTR1000s lose power with them. The GSX-R loses power with it, around 1-2whp. If you want to lose that power in exchange for the ability to clean it, that decision is yours to make. Otherwise, I'd stick with stock.
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post #9 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
Throw the 2bro exhaust out, too. lol

Don't bother with autotune after a real tune. The ECU always wants to fuel the bike as if it has the cat converter and stock filter. The PCV corrects that ECU input for the lack thereof. IF the tuner is a pro, the autotune would just fuck with the work he did that you paid good money for.
lol I understand people dont like it, but hey I had the bike for 3 months now and I do like the tbr exhaust compared to stock.ill take the 5lb exhaust over 20lb stock exhaust and cat converter. I decided to return the auto-tune...today she goes into the dyno, I know the owners from my uncle they used to do European racing together. He loves the gixxer on the track. After talking to him for 2 hours for the installation and dyno tuned he said $350 but wants to keep the bike a day longer to test it at different temps during the day to make sure it's a done deal. I'm his 10,000th dyno tune...so he said bring some beers to celebrate 😁 looking forward to see what ol girl can do when she comes to life. Will update tomorrow or Thursday! Thanks for all the input all! As far as the tbr exhaust goes, I got the headers in today and will tig weld them but wont put them on til winter time. What would you suggest for air filter...? Cause if I change it, eont it mess with AFR after the tune?

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post #10 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
Throw the 2bro exhaust out, too. lol

Don't bother with autotune after a real tune. The ECU always wants to fuel the bike as if it has the cat converter and stock filter. The PCV corrects that ECU input for the lack thereof. IF the tuner is a pro, the autotune would just fuck with the work he did that you paid good money for.
I thought the autotune keeps to the A/F YOU set it to (And a dyno run would take out the guesswork to get the most out of it) regardless of weather or parts swapping
I believe that's what that wideband sensor is for instead of the OEM O2 sensor which has to be disabled (and the ECU won't adjust the mixture without, it since it sees only one value),
all the mixture settings are handled by the PCV/AT

I thought the Motty AFR tuner worked under the same principle

Last edited by Nightbat®; 05-14-2019 at 05:24 PM.
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post #11 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K7gixx750 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
Throw the 2bro exhaust out, too. lol

Don't bother with autotune after a real tune. The ECU always wants to fuel the bike as if it has the cat converter and stock filter. The PCV corrects that ECU input for the lack thereof. IF the tuner is a pro, the autotune would just fuck with the work he did that you paid good money for.
lol I understand people dont like it, but hey I had the bike for 3 months now and I do like the tbr exhaust compared to stock.ill take the 5lb exhaust over 20lb stock exhaust and cat converter. I decided to return the auto-tune...today she goes into the dyno, I know the owners from my uncle they used to do European racing together. He loves the gixxer on the track. After talking to him for 2 hours for the installation and dyno tuned he said $350 but wants to keep the bike a day longer to test it at different temps during the day to make sure it's a done deal. I'm his 10,000th dyno tune...so he said bring some beers to celebrate 😁 looking forward to see what ol girl can do when she comes to life. Will update tomorrow or Thursday! Thanks for all the input all! As far as the tbr exhaust goes, I got the headers in today and will tig weld them but wont put them on til winter time. What would you suggest for air filter...? Cause if I change it, eont it mess with AFR after the tune?
that’s sounds awsome good luck, I’ll bring some cases also if I can be 10001 lol it sounds like a good time!
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post #12 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 06:50 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
I thought the autotune keeps to the A/F YOU set it to (And a dyno run would take out the guesswork to get the most out of it) regardless of weather or parts swapping
I believe that's what that wideband sensor is for instead of the OEM O2 sensor which has to be disabled (and the ECU won't adjust the mixture without, it since it sees only one value),
all the mixture settings are handled by the PCV/AT

I thought the Motty AFR tuner worked under the same principle
You are correct that the autotune adjusts fueling to a set A/F. That is not what a dyno is for. A dyno sets fueling for a balance of max power and smoothness. For example, 13:1 might make the most power between 5 and 8 k, and maybe 13.2:1 is best for 8k and over. Maybe, to make the power band smoother, making 0.1 increments up or down over a range makes best power or smoothness. Speed of the bike changes intake velocity and pressure, swirl and tumble, and cooling. An autotune doesn't measure how powerful or smooth a bike is, just how much oxygen comes out of the exhaust and makes a "best guess" for how much fuel to use.

Dynos are not for strict max power. There is no sense in having 115 RWHP at 14k rpm if a bike runs like shit from idle to 13k rpm.

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post #13 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 07:22 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

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Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
An autotune doesn't measure how powerful or smooth a bike is, just how much oxygen comes out of the exhaust and makes a "best guess" for how much fuel to use.

But that's where that first Dyno comes in, to determine the values for a smooth/best power delivery, you then set those values in the mapping and the autotune will automatically adjust the mixture to those values, regardless of outside elements influencing A/F mixture

A PC without AT is just a snapshot of taking the best values for A/F -at that specific time -under those specific circumstances, that your bike is being tuned
Which differ the moment you ride away from the tuning center (and just think about Ram Air conditions not being present on a Dyno)
The AT will keep these values consistent regardless of the circumstances

So, for example:
If you have set a 13/1 A/F at 8000rpm, (and 13.3/1 at 8100, 13/1 again at 8200, etc -Also taking throttle position into account)
It doesn't matter after setting up the tuning tables, what the air pressure is, what the temperature of your engine is, if it's wetter, or colder outside, or your filter needs cleaning, or you put in your baffle.
The AT will take the data from the Wideband sensor and when hitting that RPM/Throttle position, (if necessary) adjusts the mixture on the PCV to that 13/1

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post #14 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 07:42 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

I will defer you to @Karns Performance and/or @Brock Davidson
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post #15 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-14-2019, 11:03 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

As far as air cleaners go if you already have a K&N then use it, just don't waste your money on buying one. Proof in point, go to Power Commander website and look at all the available maps , almost everyone states with "stock or aftermarket" filter because even they didn't notice a difference between air filters when put on the dyno.
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post #16 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 12:05 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Power commander V help....

Cause what these guys at the shop told me, is the bikes ECU is able to compensate for temp drop etc... I dont have my ecu flashed, so the 02 sensors are still in use. He just said it wouldn't be necessary to be installed. He is a certified dynojet retailer, and told them they need to re word the meaning of auto tune, or fix it so it does auto adjust. Dynojet says they dont have to engineering man power to fix the problem...
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post #17 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:34 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

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Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
I will defer you to @Karns Performance and/or @Brock Davidson
...Or you could read what I wrote

Because if you wanna be anal about it: "A dyno sets fueling for a balance of max power and smoothness"
Wrong!
A dynometer doesn't do anything to a bike either , except measuring power at the rear wheel and exhaust fumes
To set the fueling, you need some kind of other device to alter the FI mapping

Indeed, an Autotune module by itself cannot make a bike smoother/stronger
For that you have to make an analysis on a dyno to determine what values an AT has to use (and then it doesn't make it better/faster/stronger, it just keeps it at the values specified by the analysis)


Now, it could be that in the real world, an AT module isn't very effective at readjusting FI to the specified/desired values (which would make it a faulty product), but that's a different story

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post #18 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 02:50 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

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Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
...Or you could read what I wrote

Because if you wanna be anal about it: "A dyno sets fueling for a balance of max power and smoothness"
Wrong!
A dynometer doesn't do anything to a bike either , except measuring power at the rear wheel and exhaust fumes
To set the fueling, you need some kind of other device to alter the FI mapping
Ok lets not get into it you both have HUGE cranks
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post #19 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 07:14 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightbat® View Post
...Or you could read what I wrote

Because if you wanna be anal about it: "A dyno sets fueling for a balance of max power and smoothness"
Wrong!
A dynometer doesn't do anything to a bike either , except measuring power at the rear wheel and exhaust fumes
To set the fueling, you need some kind of other device to alter the FI mapping

Indeed, an Autotune module by itself cannot make a bike smoother/stronger
For that you have to make an analysis on a dyno to determine what values an AT has to use (and then it doesn't make it better/faster/stronger, it just keeps it at the values specified by the analysis)


Now, it could be that in the real world, an AT module isn't very effective at readjusting FI to the specified/desired values (which would make it a faulty product), but that's a different story
A dyno SESSION with a competent tuner with appropriate hardware like a PCV, Bazzaz, or ECU flash sets fueling for a balance of max power and smoothness throughout a given rev range by request of the customer or a specific application.

Are you happy now? Are you so unsure of what you are saying that you had to misinterpret my statement?

Autotune is a bandaid fix. Weather, barometer, heat, all constantly change. Are you gonna ride for 5 minutes and then hook up your computer to accept the changes to what it all was 5 minutes earlier but is now different? You could take a piss before riding and affect your 1/4 mile time more, ffs.

Go up a 1000' hill and your air pressure drops by 3.5%. Accept those changes every hill? GTFO
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post #20 of 44 (permalink) Old 05-16-2019, 07:21 PM
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Re: Power commander V help....

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Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
A dyno SESSION with a competent tuner with appropriate hardware like a PCV, Bazzaz, or ECU flash sets fueling for a balance of max power and smoothness throughout a given rev range by request of the customer or a specific application.

Are you happy now? Are you so unsure of what you are saying that you had to misinterpret my statement?

Autotune is a bandaid fix. Weather, barometer, heat, all constantly change. Are you gonna ride for 5 minutes and then hook up your computer to accept the changes to what it all was 5 minutes earlier but is now different? You could take a piss before riding and affect your 1/4 mile time more, ffs.

Go up a 1000' hill and your air pressure drops by 3.5%. Accept those changes every hill? GTFO
Barometric pressure.... hahaha had to put something
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