A question on Regulator/Rectifiers - Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 01:18 PM Thread Starter
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A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

Hi Everyone,

I have a 2007 GSX-R600 and to cut a long story short, my regrec just died. So I took it off and discovered that someone had changed the plugs to fit the single 5 pin plug type instead of the the two individual (4pin and 3pin) plugs that come on the 32800-21H00, which I believe is actually the correct one for this bike. More concerning to me however, is that according to the specs I found when searching for a new one, the correct one is 12v/50A and the one that just died is 12v/35A.

From what little I know about electrics, high amps going into something designed for less amps is generally a bad thing. Of course I'm also not sure if those amps are coming in or going out but either way I would assume that much difference can't be good. Can someone please tell me what the main difference is between these, why one is less than the other and whether or not this is indeed why the the regulator died and the plug looks like someone took a lighter to it?

I'm interested more for curiosity than anything else. Fortunately the person that did it, didn't cut the original 4 pin plug off the loom so I've remove the 'adaptor' they made. Unfortunately I had to cut the plug off the stator wires, but I'm not too concerned with that as I was considering hard wiring it anyway but if not, then I'll get a 3 pin plug to match the oem one.
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 01:37 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

No idea what your talking about in this sense but I know ALOT about electronics and current theory. One thing I will tell you is current is pulled through a system not pushed. Whatever is on the receiving end will dictate how much current is coming through the line. Some times people beef up fuses (stupidly) so they stop blowing through them. Other times people will reduce the size of the fuse ( also not smart ) to save the receiving equipment. You can put in a device that requires a lower current but the fuse or regulating component (circuit level) needs to match. Idk if this helps you at all. Best advise anyone will give you here is gunna be download the manual and grab a Multimeter and recover the factory setup. Some people do weird things because they think they know more than they do.


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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 02:02 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

The stator-to-R/R and R/R-to-main harness connectors have been weak points and companies like Eastern Beaver have been selling higher quality connectors to replace the OEM parts. You might have something like that. We'd need pics to tell more.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 03:24 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

Don't get hung up on the connectors. As long as they were installed properly, it's NBD.

Don't get hung up on the 35A rating, either. All that means is that downstream, the electrical system is rated for 420 watts PER PHASE, nameplate rating (35Ax12V=420). The rectifier converts 3 phases, so now you get up to 1260W. Nameplate ratings are often ridiculously cautious. These bikes fall under that. That 35A means that each diode can handle 35A without breaking down. You are absolutely correct that higher amps are a bad thing. Most equipment failure is due to "I-squared-R" losses, which is simply heat. Diodes are a one-way valve, so to speak, and break down with heat or explode with extremely high opposite voltage. Leaving the scienticious stuff out of it, current can only flow one way in a diode... unless "breakdown voltage" the wrong direction causes it to fail. In DC electrical system, voltage and current go in one direction, only. In an AC system that the rectifier "rectifies" to DC current, Voltage and current flow from a positive value to a negative value. The diodes prevent the negative value to pass, and so only positive voltage results.

Everything in an electrical system has a resistance. Let's pretend the diodes in the rectifier have a resistance of one ohm. "I-squared-R" loss, or heat within a component means that each diode at 35A can handle (35A^2)x 1Ω=1225W. A 50 Amp could handle (50^2)x 1Ω= 2500W So the second diode can handle more than TWICE the heat. I just threw out a 1Ω number for simplicity, but they don't have that in the open direction.

Your plug looks fucked up because of I squared R

Just so you know, a lot of people on touring bikes run heated clothing on their bike's electrical and still fall under 420 Watts.

Lastly, you need to test ALL THREE components of your charging system, now. Rules of thumb is if one item fails, the rest will often fail with it. Do a site search for your service manual and test your stator, rectifier, and battery.

EDIT- So I was dealing with rectifiers today, and I realized I erred in my explanation, here. The diodes here aren't rated 35A @12 Volts. They have a voltage and a current rating, but it is the rectifier OUTPUT rated at 35A @12v . The theory I explained about heat remains true, but the diodes are not rated 35A and 12V. They would be rated something else because the current is regulated AFTER it is rectified to DC.
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Last edited by MacBayne; 03-29-2019 at 04:47 PM. Reason: I made a mistake.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 750Squidiot View Post
No idea what your talking about in this sense but I know ALOT about electronics and current theory. One thing I will tell you is current is pulled through a system not pushed. Whatever is on the receiving end will dictate how much current is coming through the line. Some times people beef up fuses (stupidly) so they stop blowing through them. Other times people will reduce the size of the fuse ( also not smart ) to save the receiving equipment. You can put in a device that requires a lower current but the fuse or regulating component (circuit level) needs to match. Idk if this helps you at all. Best advise anyone will give you here is gunna be download the manual and grab a Multimeter and recover the factory setup. Some people do weird things because they think they know more than they do.
Thanks, I do recall now someone once telling me that current is pulled not pushed. I do have a manual, in fact that is how I first spotted the difference and I do intend to get the correct regrec and put it back to factory. I am still curious though as to what the ratings mean and why the correct one is rated at 12V/50A while the other one (my old one) is rated at 12V/35A which, from what I find online, is for older models of the GSXRs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillV View Post
The stator-to-R/R and R/R-to-main harness connectors have been weak points and companies like Eastern Beaver have been selling higher quality connectors to replace the OEM parts. You might have something like that. We'd need pics to tell more.
I wish it was that sort of quality, but alas no. It was just a normal plastic plug (what was left of it) which matched the one on the regrec, so I'm guessing it was originally harvested from an old loom of an older gen GSXR.
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 04:16 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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Originally Posted by Psybernaut View Post
Thanks, I do recall now someone once telling me that current is pulled not pushed. I do have a manual, in fact that is how I first spotted the difference and I do intend to get the correct regrec and put it back to factory. I am still curious though as to what the ratings mean and why the correct one is rated at 12V/50A while the other one (my old one) is rated at 12V/35A which, from what I find online, is for older models of the GSXRs.



I wish it was that sort of quality, but alas no. It was just a normal plastic plug (what was left of it) which matched the one on the regrec, so I'm guessing it was originally harvested from an old loom of an older gen GSXR.
Sounds like someone bought a used part or the incorrect part and installed it. Can you post a picture of the "rating" plaque I may be able to give you some insight. Also if you have a snapshot of the wiring diagram for this system out of the manual post that and I can tell you more!
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 04:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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Originally Posted by MacBayne View Post
Don't get hung up on the connectors. As long as they were installed properly, it's NBD.

Don't get hung up on the 35A rating, either......

Lastly, you need to test ALL THREE components of your charging system, now. Rules of thumb is if one item fails, the rest will often fail with it. Do a site search for your service manual and test your stator, rectifier, and battery.
Thank you for the explanation. That mostly makes sense to me

I have checked the battery and tested the stator to make sure I have no grounding and I'm getting 65+v at around 4500-5000 rpm with the engine cold.
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 04:49 PM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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Originally Posted by 750Squidiot View Post
Sounds like someone bought a used part or the incorrect part and installed it. Can you post a picture of the "rating" plaque I may be able to give you some insight. Also if you have a snapshot of the wiring diagram for this system out of the manual post that and I can tell you more!
Well that's what I figured too. And when the first one died just after I got the bike about 1Ĺ years ago, I didn't have a manual so I just took it out and replaced it with the same type with the same plug. It was only this time that I looked at it and realised something didn't look right compared with what the manual showed, and so I ended up going down this rabbit hole

Unfortunately the one I have does not have any information printed on the back. The only reason I know about the difference in amps is because I was looking through the catalogue of a local supplier and it had the two regulators pictured next to each other, with the amps highlighted, so I figured there must be some importance to that.

I have attached a pic of the charging circuit although I'm not sure how much help it will be, its pretty generic and looks like just about any other bike charging system diagram.
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 05:15 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

Regardless of the replacement you choose, look into relocating the reg/rec. super popular thing to do for your year bike. it will help alot in the longevity.

https://youtu.be/NTESehM0djo

Last edited by maniac1886; 03-28-2019 at 05:17 PM.
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-28-2019, 06:20 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by 750Squidiot View Post
Sounds like someone bought a used part or the incorrect part and installed it. Can you post a picture of the "rating" plaque I may be able to give you some insight. Also if you have a snapshot of the wiring diagram for this system out of the manual post that and I can tell you more!
I disagree. Someone knew how to make connectors and knew that 35A was a safe rating. It was the wrong part, yes, but the rest looks planned. This was the work of a craftsman, not a neophyte. I bet he had a bin of parts and knew how to make them work.
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 01:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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Originally Posted by maniac1886 View Post
Regardless of the replacement you choose, look into relocating the reg/rec. super popular thing to do for your year bike. it will help alot in the longevity.
I did this already, because I thought that was why the first one went. So I made a bracket and mounted it on the side. But thanks for the tip anyway.
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 01:21 AM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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I disagree. Someone knew how to make connectors and knew that 35A was a safe rating. It was the wrong part, yes, but the rest looks planned. This was the work of a craftsman, not a neophyte. I bet he had a bin of parts and knew how to make them work.
Well, if you saw how it was before I pulled it apart, I'm not sure you would be using the words "planned" and "craftsman" in the sentence

But as you said before, perhaps they knew there wouldn't be an issue with using that rectifier in terms of the amps. But I still can't help getting the feeling there must be a good reason why the correct (50A) one has two positive and negative outputs going into a 4 pin plug, where the other (35A) one only has one of each and they joined the single outputs to the two wires of an old female plug, twisted them together with some electrical tape and then plugged that into the (fortunately still existing) factory 4 pin plug.

I have no idea whats in a rectifier, perhaps you can shed more light on the reason why one would have two outputs and the other only one?

None the less, I still intend to get the correct one and restore the wiring back to factory as much as I can.
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 02:55 AM
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If the wires were just twisted together and electrical taped over then the guy was no craftsman. I would worry about the wires vibrating and bouncing around which might cause inconsistent power supply. Put the connectors you have in the parts bin and solder everything together once you get it all figured out. Be sure to get quality parts. Good luck.
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 04:32 AM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

It's hard to be sure what the maximum designed current draw from the R/R is. One could argue, that, since the battery supplies the system through the 30A main fuse, it's no more than that, but there's no reason to assume that the system was designed to be usable with just the battery (say with a failed generator) and in general, depending on engine speed (and hence generator output) and load (say, whether the high beam or fan is on, or whether the battery is not topped up) current may be provided by the battery, the generator, or perhaps both.

At any rate, even if the maximum current can exceed 35A (and assuming the current rating of the R/R is for the total rectified current, which I would guess to be the case), this may only happen on rare occasions when many/all loads are on at the same time (say going at high engine speed at night, with the high beam on and with the cooling fan engaged), so one might again argue that it's not that big a deal. On the other hand, while a rating of 35A does mean that the internal components are rated for that much, or more, current, there are certain conditions implied, such as that there's adequate cooling to keep the component temperature within an allowed range. So one could argue that a higher-rated component will likely have better cooling design, which might be important even at lower loads, for instance if you're not going at high speeds to generate plenty of airflow around it. In other words, it may be able to take more abuse before failing, which is likely important for R/Rs, as they seem to be among the components that will, eventually, fail.

There are also other considerations which are perhaps more important in this case. The twin wiring for the hot and ground leads to/from the R/R was meant to increase the current capacity, something which was evidently not deemed necessary for the lower-rated component. As far as I can tell, this was done for the benefit of the connector(s) as the interface between the pins (or other similar splice points at the other end) are relatively high-resistance points through which large currents flow, so that a lot of heat is generated. Having two lines, splits the current through each, so that also halves the heat that each pin needs to dissipate. Mating the wiring upstream and feeding it to one pin, only serves to generate another high-resistance splice point, as far as I can tell.

This likely explains the molten mess the connector turned into and perhaps in this case the connector is the only thing that failed and the R/R itself is still ok, but ultimately, whatever the case the root cause of failure was a combination of under-rated component selection and poor implementation.
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 12:56 PM
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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Well, if you saw how it was before I pulled it apart, I'm not sure you would be using the words "planned" and "craftsman" in the sentence

But as you said before, perhaps they knew there wouldn't be an issue with using that rectifier in terms of the amps. But I still can't help getting the feeling there must be a good reason why the correct (50A) one has two positive and negative outputs going into a 4 pin plug, where the other (35A) one only has one of each and they joined the single outputs to the two wires of an old female plug, twisted them together with some electrical tape and then plugged that into the (fortunately still existing) factory 4 pin plug.

I have no idea whats in a rectifier, perhaps you can shed more light on the reason why one would have two outputs and the other only one?

None the less, I still intend to get the correct one and restore the wiring back to factory as much as I can.
Well if it was put together with twists and electrical tape, I retract my comment about build quality.

Twists and electrical tape are probably exactly why the thing failed.

As per why the factory rectifier had the ratings and connector it had could be many, but I bet its the Lego principle. Suzuki didn't design a rectifier for a GSXR 600. They didn't design an electrical system for a 600, either. They took an existing design and modified it for the purpose (the loom being an exception. That has to be cut to length). What I mean, is that the electrical system is the same principle for most all of Suzuki FI bikes, and the components are off-the-shelf. Rather than specifying EXACTLY what they need for the rectifier, they took an existing one that they use on many different models. I'm not going to get into detail, but almost every electronic and electrical system component from your computer to the 500MVA transformer at your electrical utility has a designated rating and is plug-and-play between manufacturers. I bet every single sensor or electronic component on the 600/750 has another model machine that it is used on in the Suzuki lineup... and I dare say will plug and play with some models of another of the Japanese big 4. Denso, for example, supplies all four. I bet it's not restricted to sport bikes, either.

You are right to replace it with an OEM. Sure, as I said that things are plug and play, but Suzuki KNOWS that part number works because they spend a lotta dough on testing.

EDIT- I just looked it up on partzilla. That R/R is used on ATVs as well. https://www.partzilla.com/product/suzuki/32800-47H00

I bet that if you crack it open there will be another part number inside from the supplier and its the same as almost every japanese bike of the past 15 years.
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Last edited by MacBayne; 03-29-2019 at 01:01 PM.
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post #16 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 01:49 AM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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... This likely explains the molten mess the connector turned into and perhaps in this case the connector is the only thing that failed and the R/R itself is still ok, but ultimately, whatever the case the root cause of failure was a combination of under-rated component selection and poor implementation.
Unfortunately the R/R has failed. I had also hoped that it was only the plug, but I think that may have actually caused the R/R to fail. I tested it and I get inconsistency on one of the wires, so even if it would work like that (I don't know I haven't tried it) I imagine it can't be good so I got a new one yesterday.
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post #17 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 02:15 AM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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.... I would worry about the wires vibrating and bouncing around which might cause inconsistent power supply. Put the connectors you have in the parts bin and solder everything together once you get it all figured out. Be sure to get quality parts. Good luck.
This is partly what I intend to do. I got the new R/R yesterday and test fitted it last night to check the 4 pin connector will reach the original one, from where I mounted the R/R on the side. So I'm going to use that connector as it is weather proofed and appears to seal well with the OEM plug (plus it is fairly well protected under the airbox.

Unfortunately I was not able to find any suitable aftermarket plugs like the ones BillV suggested above, and since I no longer have a plug on the stator wires anyway, I'm going solder and heat shrink the individual connections, then heat shrink them together and wrap the whole thing with that self bonding rubberised tape (I can't remember exactly what its called) which should protect it and make it completely weather proof.
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post #18 of 18 (permalink) Old 03-30-2019, 02:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: A question on Regulator/Rectifiers

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Well if it was put together with twists and electrical tape, I retract my comment about build quality.

Twists and electrical tape are probably exactly why the thing failed.

As per why the factory rectifier had the ratings and connector it had could be many, but I bet its the Lego principle. Suzuki didn't design a rectifier for a GSXR 600. They didn't design an electrical system for a 600, either. They took an existing design and modified it for the purpose (the loom being an exception. That has to be cut to length). What I mean, is that the electrical system is the same principle for most all of Suzuki FI bikes, and the components are off-the-shelf. Rather than specifying EXACTLY what they need for the rectifier, they took an existing one that they use on many different models. I'm not going to get into detail, but almost every electronic and electrical system component from your computer to the 500MVA transformer at your electrical utility has a designated rating and is plug-and-play between manufacturers. I bet every single sensor or electronic component on the 600/750 has another model machine that it is used on in the Suzuki lineup... and I dare say will plug and play with some models of another of the Japanese big 4. Denso, for example, supplies all four. I bet it's not restricted to sport bikes, either.

You are right to replace it with an OEM. Sure, as I said that things are plug and play, but Suzuki KNOWS that part number works because they spend a lotta dough on testing.

EDIT- I just looked it up on partzilla. That R/R is used on ATVs as well.

I bet that if you crack it open there will be another part number inside from the supplier and its the same as almost every japanese bike of the past 15 years.

I think this is the case with most things that are mass manufactured, especially bikes and cars. The R/R I just got for my bike has about 8 or 9 different part numbers listed next to it in the catalogue and since I'm guessing they use the same part number within a range of bike, that would mean 7 different ranges of Suzuki use the same R/R.
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