Counter-steer vs lean-off - Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com
 24Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Garage
Counter-steer vs lean-off

Hi all,
A question for you street-fighter riders. I am curious as to what riding techniques you prefer for a GSXR750. Basically, do you keep the lean-off technique from the super sport position, or do you put in more counter-steer? I appreciate any input
JudgeBread is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 02:16 AM
Track Day Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 38
well actually all motorcycles are steered via countersteering, and it helps to lean off the bike - the side your turning too, as it weights your turn in - aiding balance, plus it can allow higher speeds during the turn as the tyres remain more upright than they would if not leaning off, allowing more grip.
temporarykiwi is offline  
post #3 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 08:36 AM
Dreaming of buttsecks for years...
 
TheGeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Motorcycle: Anniversary Edition 600 & 2018 Harley Street Glide
Posts: 13,359
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Lean and steer are loosely related. So much so, almost not at all.

When you're going super slow, you steer the bike in the direction you want to go. At some point, that changes and you start counter steering. It all has to do with the momentum of the bike. Also when you're going super slow, you counter lean. Which means you lean the bike into the turn, but you lean your body out to counter balance. That lets you lean the bike further than it would naturally. This improves it's ability to turn. When you're going fast, you lean into the turn. This lets the bike lean less than it would naturally keeping the tires on the tread.
springfall2008 likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Never mistake education for intelligence.

"Don't go ninjain nobody that don't need ninjain" -
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
TheGeek is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 08:55 AM
The Supermod that wants to see grandma's Snapper....
 
Ironhead401's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Jersey
Motorcycle: WR250R
Posts: 15,071
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Wrong forum. The starting line is for introductions only and not bike questions. Moved thread.
Ironhead401 is offline  
post #5 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 10:30 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeBread View Post
Hi all,
A question for you street-fighter riders. I am curious as to what riding techniques you prefer for a GSXR750. Basically, do you keep the lean-off technique from the super sport position, or do you put in more counter-steer? I appreciate any input
This is a great question. Answer for me is it depends.....1) how fast you are going 2) how sharp is the turn 3) how is your visibility 4) how is the road condition

If I am going slow into a turn, I tend to grip the tank with both knees and Moto Gymkhana it with use of counter steer and more shoulder turn.

If the turn is banked, speed it up there and visibility is unlimited, I just counter steer like crazy till the pegs sparks (knee is not really out but can be)

If the turn is sharp and visibility is limited, I tend to counter steer a bit, hang my knee out a bit and steer with both the hands/knees combined. If apex starts to get sharper, I found that sticking the knee out more helps me balance better than pushing harder on the bars (in short you can stick your knee out/in like a mast on a sailboat to help turn that bike w/o too much pressure on the bar). Of course, I have half a butt cheek off the seat b4 I get into that sharp turn....or else all bets are off and you are in the tall grass.

Be safe, take your time and work on those techniques and increase speed incrementally. Been known to make a U-turn and try that turn again if I had messed up.
Revster is offline  
post #6 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 11:20 AM
Dreaming of buttsecks for years...
 
TheGeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Motorcycle: Anniversary Edition 600 & 2018 Harley Street Glide
Posts: 13,359
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

^^^ you need to learn to ride before you start giving advise on technique....
750Squidiot and Jacob54s like this.
TheGeek is offline  
post #7 of 55 (permalink) Old 07-31-2019, 01:01 PM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGeek View Post
^^^ you need to learn to ride before you start giving advise on technique....
Dude, chill.

OP was asking for general opinions and what works for each rider.

You put your pennies in the hat, now let other folks share their experience.

Not everyone does things the same way and we can agree that we all ride differently and we have various levels of experience. How are we suppose to learn from each other unless we have a forum with an open discussion w/o getting brow beaten for just sharing?

If you find that a different technique work better for you, just let us know, because I am always willing to learn. Some times we are saying the same thing but using different words.

Just saying.....plus, I've been riding since 1973 so that should count for something.
Meeps likes this.
Revster is offline  
post #8 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 02:47 AM
Married his Fleshlight... And Also touches people in a "special" way
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 870
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

For average street riding you should just turn your head and look where you want to go into the corner, its the same for any motorcycle on the street.

Once you make a habit of looking through the corner then your upper body should follow...just sticking your knee out is going to get you crossed up and is a bad habit.

Most importantly is to be smooth and relaxed on the bike. Support yourself with your legs and your core. Keep a loose grip on the handle bars...being a good rider and more importantly a safe rider takes patience, practice and a good mindset.

Sent from my SM-J250G using Tapatalk
bentoverhard69 is offline  
post #9 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 06:35 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Here is a wacky question for you wacky folks out there.

Is it still counter steering if you are ONLY using the outside hand and pulling up? So turning left, left hand off the bar (holding on to your Primo IPA so you can sip it in wonderful delight - only kidding), using only the right hand to pull up on the bar.

Learned this trick while I was practicing low speed figure 8s in the parking lot using only one hand. Try this - you will be sweating like crazy in 10 minutes. Then switch hands for the next 10 - no clutch, using only the back brakes - within 4 parking spots that is your box. This will get you really familiar with turning with your shoulder/core and looking into the turn.
Revster is offline  
post #10 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 06:46 AM
Dreaming of buttsecks for years...
 
TheGeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Indiana
Motorcycle: Anniversary Edition 600 & 2018 Harley Street Glide
Posts: 13,359
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Yes. That's how it's possible for OAB to ride the track. But, your low speed 8's weren't using counter steering at all.
TheGeek is offline  
post #11 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 08:34 AM
Squid
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Motorcycle: 17 GSXR 1000
Posts: 17
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

I just turn the steering wheel in the direction I want to go.
750Squidiot likes this.
Prufrock is offline  
post #12 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 10:35 AM
Uses squid tentacles as a butt-plug
 
750Squidiot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: Valley of the sun
Motorcycle: K4 750
Posts: 260
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revster View Post
Dude, chill.

OP was asking for general opinions and what works for each rider.

You put your pennies in the hat, now let other folks share their experience.

Not everyone does things the same way and we can agree that we all ride differently and we have various levels of experience. How are we suppose to learn from each other unless we have a forum with an open discussion w/o getting brow beaten for just sharing?

If you find that a different technique work better for you, just let us know, because I am always willing to learn. Some times we are saying the same thing but using different words.

Just saying.....plus, I've been riding since 1973 so that should count for something.
I get what your saying but it doesn't matter how long you've been riding even for 100 years if you ride incorrectly then you ride incorrectly. PHYSICS always does things the same way. Newtons laws never change. Leaning into a turn at high speed decreases the angle needed. Leaning into a turn at very low speed makes you fall over. Not leaning at high speed means you need a greater lean angle and depending on your speed and the corner you might need to go past your traction zone causing you to lowside. Gyroscopic principles dont "change" because you have a different riding style and telling someone that can cause them serious harm. The best thing for them to do is go take a riding course then an advanced riding course maybe even watch twist of the wrist.
Jacob54s likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
I see stupid people
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Family,Ride,Golf,Beer

04' GSXR750 Full Akra exhaust
750Squidiot is offline  
post #13 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-01-2019, 07:09 PM
Track Day Winner
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: California
Motorcycle: 06 GSXR1000
Posts: 88
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

You use the same general technique on all bikes. Hanging off decreases the lean angle required to make the turn. LOOK where you want to go, not at your gauges, not at your bike, especially not at the ground. Counter steer through the corner. To anyone who says they don't counter steer, if you ride your bike above 20mph and make corners, yes you do. It's literally impossible to turn at speed without counter steering. The "I just lean it in bro" is bullshit. Whether you know it or not, you're counter steering. This is elementary stuff dude, every person on 2 wheels should know this by now. You should be doing this all the time, no matter what bike you're riding. You may not HAVE to hang off, but all you're doing by not hanging off is increasing your risk.
Revster likes this.
Jacob54s is offline  
post #14 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 07:43 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by temporarykiwi View Post
well actually all motorcycles are steered via countersteering, and it helps to lean off the bike - the side your turning too, as it weights your turn in - aiding balance, plus it can allow higher speeds during the turn as the tyres remain more upright than they would if not leaning off, allowing more grip.
Couldn't agree with this anymore or said it any better. I could not add anything else except leaning down and kissing the inside mirror should help a bit in some higher speed counter steering.

Riding faster in tight turns is just part of the natural progression of riding a bike. Be careful of those reducing radius turns with limited sight lines.

You learn CS by learning to apply just a little bit of pressure at first and then increasing the pressure and speed. This is one of the first lessons they teach you in the beginners MSCV course.

To practice putting a knee out (not down) you follow the same principle. Start slow and instead of having your inside knee hugging the tank, stick it out just a few inches at a time, going into the turn, with just a little pressure on the bar. It will feel squirrely in the beginning but will get better. Increasing both, a little bit at a time as you get more familiar/experience. Starting in an empty parking lot is a good idea. As you get better, start to slide part of your butt onto the edge of the inside seat and back to center when done.

Be prepared to practice your emergency stops in that turn. This is the next lesson they teach you in the beginner's class. Tip - stand the bike up, and assertively apply back & front brakes w/o locking up. You want the bike to be up and going straight b4 the brakes.

I find the knee helps turn the bike easier due to the clip ons on my L1 750. With clip ons, you do NOT have the leverage you do with handlebars and I find myself using more arm strength than I would on my FJR or SV650. Use to be able to ride from LA to NY non-stop in 36 hours in the dead of winter but now, aFter 2 hours in the twisties, my arms are shot, unless I use my knees more. Just getting old.

Prepping this year to get ready for track days. Pretty sure, my outlook will change once I get on track and "up to speed". Just got my L1 a handful of months ago and the dynamics of this bike is so different than my other ones. Absolutely loving it and can't wait for the track.

Once again, take it slow, within your limits, visibility and level of comfort. Sometimes riding with a more experienced rider will help show you the proper speed, lean angle and body posture.
Revster is offline  
post #15 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-02-2019, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
Squid
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 6
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Thanks for the input! I have a GSXS750, which has a handle bar as opposed to clip-ons. I am actually pretty comfortable doing low speed turns, but I am used to doing higher speed turns on bikes that have a little better turn in. I took some advice and realized I was not using enough effort on the handle bars to counter steer effectively.
JudgeBread is offline  
post #16 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 07:00 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeBread View Post
Thanks for the input! I have a GSXS750, which has a handle bar as opposed to clip-ons. I am actually pretty comfortable doing low speed turns, but I am used to doing higher speed turns on bikes that have a little better turn in. I took some advice and realized I was not using enough effort on the handle bars to counter steer effectively.
Sounds like you are doing everything right. That is great news.

This may be off topic but if you plan to ride aggressively in the street (just like the track), make sure your brakes and suspension is set up correctly. It took a few years of running off the road and not being able to hold a clean line in a turn before I decided to work on my suspension. Did not even think that was the problem but it made a HUGE difference. I mean super duper huge. Like 100% better.

One of the things they teach you in the MSVC courses is that you have a ton of LEAN available to you in that turn - about 45 degrees (that is a lot). And if you use a knee and hang off a bit, you can use higher speed and not put that bike into a deeper lean and still be the same.

Another thing to remember and that is very important is smooth operation of your controls. Try not to wack on the throttle and slam on the brakes. Keep the bike as balanced as possible while in lean. There is only a certain amount of traction available to you at lean and every time throttle/brakes moves a fraction, you start to lose that traction.

You did not ask about classes but that part of your experience is truly important. Get as much seat hours as possible and enjoy your GSXS (good choice btw - was thinking about putting bars on my GSXR750 but may just get a S1000R/MT10 instead) but if you can find a MSC class close by, definitely sign up. You will learn in one weekend what would normally take one year. And that transfers onto the road as a ton of fun. Plus, you get a discount on your insurance for the next 3 years. My local Sheriff department does a yearly assessment and training and I try to make that. Some track bike schools recommend you actually take a dirt bike course before you even start with them. Ever try taking a lessons with a bunch of 10 year olds? A ton of fun. And whenever I have a family member or a friend get into biking, I take the Beginner's Class with them to keep them company. Always learn something new even in a Beginner's Class. Took all the MSC classes (beginner's to Advance) in 4 different states so far. This is the most important piece of advice that I can give you at this time.

Had a ton of friends get hurt riding aggressively so take your time. Had one lose his life in Germany. Another a leg in Virginia. Rubber side up Bro.
Revster is offline  
post #17 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 07:06 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Meant to say "Rubber side down". Duh. I am dyslexic at times so forgive me. Dealing with Post Concussion from too many years of landing on my head in gymnastics, getting beaned in boxing and too many arm bars in MMA. I get confused sometimes.

Rubber Side Down, Brother. Be safe.
Jacob54s likes this.
Revster is offline  
post #18 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 11:39 AM
Track Day Winner
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: California
Motorcycle: 06 GSXR1000
Posts: 88
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revster View Post
Rubber side up Bro.
10/4 bud!
Attached Images
 
Revster likes this.
Jacob54s is offline  
post #19 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-03-2019, 07:24 PM
Captain Obvious ... because obviously it’s obvious.
 
Just_Nick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Motorcycle: 2006 GSXR "250"
Posts: 3,837
Garage
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revster View Post
Dude, chill.

OP was asking for general opinions and what works for each rider.

You put your pennies in the hat, now let other folks share their experience.

Not everyone does things the same way and we can agree that we all ride differently and we have various levels of experience. How are we suppose to learn from each other unless we have a forum with an open discussion w/o getting brow beaten for just sharing?

If you find that a different technique work better for you, just let us know, because I am always willing to learn. Some times we are saying the same thing but using different words.

Just saying.....plus, I've been riding since 1973 so that should count for something.
Riding since 1973 doesn’t mean you know how to ride. I know Harley riders who have been riding just as long who believe that using the front brake will kill you.
Just_Nick is offline  
post #20 of 55 (permalink) Old 08-04-2019, 10:25 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 54
Re: Counter-steer vs lean-off

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob54s View Post
You use the same general technique on all bikes. Hanging off decreases the lean angle required to make the turn. LOOK where you want to go, not at your gauges, not at your bike, especially not at the ground. Counter steer through the corner. To anyone who says they don't counter steer, if you ride your bike above 20mph and make corners, yes you do. It's literally impossible to turn at speed without counter steering. The "I just lean it in bro" is bullshit. Whether you know it or not, you're counter steering. This is elementary stuff dude, every person on 2 wheels should know this by now. You should be doing this all the time, no matter what bike you're riding. You may not HAVE to hang off, but all you're doing by not hanging off is increasing your risk.
Yeah. What he said.
Revster is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome