Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing. - Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com
 1Likes
  • 1 Post By Metlhd
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-04-2018, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 65
Garage
Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

Planning to up the ante on my AHRMA weapon. Along with the never ending quest for HP comes the obvious issue of the chassis reinforcement. I first became familiar with Structural Bonding about 8 years on a snowmobile reconstruction. Polaris, among others, were (is) using this process extensively in multiple product lines. This rebuild was an eye opener as to where and to what extent the Adhesive was used. For those not familiar with the sport of Snowmobiling, the physical loads, shock, temperature extremes and sheer abuse the chassis is subjected to is quite frankly beyond that of most off road sports. And while I may not push it as hard as I used to, 8 years later this rebuild has stood the test and I am a believer!!!

This has led me to wonder if this would be a viable option for Frame / Swingarm bracing due to the inherent issues with welding such as heat treating, annealing and dimensional distortion (warping).

I've attached an informational video from Polaris and there are many other regarding the process used in aerospace and automotive applications.

Just curious what others may think?

Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	34.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	594.4 KB
ID:	553836  
patriot12 likes this.
Metlhd is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 02:46 AM
Track Day Winner
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 70
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

thanks for posting that. very interesting. My .02 for what its worth is that Polaris is optimizing their designs to take advantage of this method of construction, which is mixing dissimilar metals. A gixxer frame is not designed with this in mind. most braces you would be adding would be for rigidity not strength so you would be probably using aluminum, so at that point i would just weld it. If you could figure out a way to bind carbon that might be worth it. I would get a junk frame and do some tests and see how it turns out. Its hard to say if it would work until you get in it.

the other side is that it would ruin the period correct ju-ju you got going on. Nice bike!
Doc_Rot is offline  
post #3 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 07:11 AM
Provisional Novice
 
Yngve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: NORWAY
Motorcycle: GSXR 1000 K8 Hayabusa 1585
Posts: 114
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Rot View Post
thanks for posting that. very interesting. My .02 for what its worth is that Polaris is optimizing their designs to take advantage of this method of construction, which is mixing dissimilar metals. A gixxer frame is not designed with this in mind. most braces you would be adding would be for rigidity not strength so you would be probably using aluminum, so at that point i would just weld it. If you could figure out a way to bind carbon that might be worth it. I would get a junk frame and do some tests and see how it turns out. Its hard to say if it would work until you get in it.

the other side is that it would ruin the period correct ju-ju you got going on. Nice bike!

In MotoGP they use "glued on" carbon on both frame and swingarm to experimence with stiffness of the frame/swingarm.
Yngve is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 12:36 PM
You should listen to me. No, seriously, listen to me.
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Santa Barbara
Motorcycle: Blue 2006 GSX-R1000
Posts: 7,518
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

The K5/K6 1000 frame brace is attached with structural adhesive and, somewhat to my surprise, seems to be fine. I think that Doc-Rot is spot on about designing to use this method, i.e. it's not to be used without careful thought.
BillV is offline  
post #5 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 65
Garage
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc_Rot View Post
thanks for posting that. very interesting. My .02 for what its worth is that Polaris is optimizing their designs to take advantage of this method of construction, which is mixing dissimilar metals. A gixxer frame is not designed with this in mind. most braces you would be adding would be for rigidity not strength so you would be probably using aluminum, so at that point i would just weld it. If you could figure out a way to bind carbon that might be worth it. I would get a junk frame and do some tests and see how it turns out. Its hard to say if it would work until you get in it.

the other side is that it would ruin the period correct ju-ju you got going on. Nice bike!
Thanks. Where I saw it used first hand was Al to Al on the bulkhead. I've gotten the impression that the process works for most (rigid) materials as long as the correct adhesive is used. I've got a couple spare swingers I'm going to experiment with. My concern about welding is the Warping many have mentioned. If it twists or deforms, it kinda defeats the purpose. Finding a good AL welder is not a problem, finding one who might be familiar with this application is a different story. I certainly don't have the background or knowledge involved in cold forming, stress relieving, annealing and heat treating.
If tech has provided a better alternative, I'm game
Metlhd is offline  
post #6 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-12-2018, 08:49 PM
You should listen to me. No, seriously, listen to me.
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Santa Barbara
Motorcycle: Blue 2006 GSX-R1000
Posts: 7,518
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

I'm not particularly knowledgeable about this but the sense I get is that the epoxy used for the frame brace is highly rated. It seems to be made by Nagase ChemteX under the Dena Tite name with part numbers AV138/HV998. They even claim good adhesion to teflon! Others like their AW106/HV953U have a higher adhesion rating to aluminum. The AV138/HV998 seems to be also sold by Hunstman Advanced Materials under the Araldite name and I don't know what that's about. It's not cheap.
BillV is offline  
post #7 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 02:47 AM
Ghostrider
 
ghostrider.1127's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Berlin (DE) Stockholm (SVE)
Motorcycle: few gsx-r
Posts: 4,383
Garage
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

Voxan had all their frames "glued" (till they went boom)
ghostrider.1127 is offline  
post #8 of 8 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 11:58 AM
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tulsa, OK
Motorcycle: I don't ride anything. Who has the time? Plus, everything I own is in pieces.
Posts: 5,441
Re: Structural Bonding for Frame/Swingarm bracing.

I don't think you really need to worry about loss of strength from welding. The alloy that Suzuki used seems to age naturally and recover its strength over time. I'd suggest sending the parts to Dr. John in California and let him do the work. He's been doing the bracing since these bikes were new.
javadog is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion on swing arms. Under bracing vs over bracing ANDRASTA Oil Cooled Gixxers 8 08-21-2013 05:24 AM
1st Gen frame bracing MrHotrod Oil Cooled Gixxers 2 10-25-2009 06:36 PM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome