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Old 04-22-2011, 12:54 AM   #1
cmschex
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Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Hi everybody! This is my first post. I'm having some trouble with my charging system, and any insight would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Bike: 2006 GSXR 600
Mileage: 32,000

I was riding through traffic for about 30 mins yesterday and the bike got up to about 220-225 degF (It was about 90degF outside at that time). Fan turned on and stayed on pretty much the whole time. I stopped at the post office and shut the engine off for about a minute. When I went to crank the engine, it was still really hot(220's) and it struggled to turn over (like a low battery). So I push started it and was on my way (but still in traffic). I got to the next place and shut the engine off. I tried to turn it back on (just to see if it would). And it still struggled to turn over. So I tried to push start it again, but I couldn't get it to start. So I waited for about 30-45 minutes to let it cool down, and I was then able to push start it. (battery still couldn't start it). So then I headed home. I was able to get some air on the way home and the coolant temp cooled down to the 180's or 190's. I got home and turned the bike off. I turned it back on, and this time it started fine.

I pulled out the mulitimeter to test the battery. The battery read 11.36 volts. This is obviously low, but apparently enough to start the engine.

With the engine started, I revved it to about 5K rpm and the battery read 11.7 volts. Which is too low for the charging voltage.

So I think my battery is fine, but my charging system is faulty.

That was yesterday. Today, I decided to trouble shoot.

I followed the manual: I checked for current leaks, there were none.

I then pulled the tank and air box and got to the three yellow wires for the generator. The resistance across all the terminals was within spec. Then I did the "generator no load performance" test. Manual says you should get 65 Volts AC from the generator at 5K rpm. I think I maxed out around 40 Volts AC. This is the test I am talking about:

[IMG][/IMG]

Then, I used the diode test feature on my multimeter to test the rectifier. I followed the chart in the suzuki manual. Of the 42 possible test combinations, 40 of them were in spec, and 2 of them read 0 voltage when they should have been between 0.4-0.7 volts. I circled them in red in the following picture:

[IMG][/IMG]

So basically, I suspect the generator may be bad. Do you think that I could have burned up the stator since the engine stayed so hot for 45 minutes to an hour or so?

And since two of the diode tests were out of spec (0 volts when they should have been 0.4-0.7 volts), do you think that this might mean my rectifier is bad as well?

Also, my coolant reservoir was empty and the level inside the radiator was a little bit low. I added about 16 ounces of coolant, and it is now at the full mark. Being half a quart low coolant quite possibly may be a contributing factor to why everything was so hot for so long.

Anyway, what do you guys think about the generator and the regulator/rectifier? Any help is appreciated! Thanks!

-Charles
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Old 04-22-2011, 04:32 AM   #2
RichiB
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

2 separate issues, fill up the rad and put a bit in the res as well.

As for the charging system did you fully charge the battey and do all the tests incl the outputs of the stator? You are just guessing until you do all the tests. Look up an electrical fault finding chart around here under member Chocolate Rain. Btw the 2 errors on the Rr do suggest that's the issue, they can go at 3.2km or 32k, luck of the draw.
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Old 04-22-2011, 06:24 AM   #3
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

just as importantly, you may need to figure out why/how/when your coolant is/got low.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:13 AM   #4
cmschex
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Thanks for the replies!

As for the coolant situation, I think the plastic reservoir may have a small crack. The level hasn't gone down at all since I added half a quart of fluid. I will eventually pressurize the system and locate the leak if there is one. I'd like to get the electrical issues worked out first.

Yes, the battery was fully charged when testing (about 12.6~12.7 volts) And yes, I did all of the tests in the service manual. The no-load generator test (as per the manual) yielded 40 V when it was supposed to yield 65 V. The rectifier/regulator diode test failed 2 of the 40 or so test combinations.

Are there any other tests that I should be doing?

According to the tests results, the generator and reg/rect are both bad. Do they typically both go bad at the same time? Coincidence?

What component do you guys think I should replace first? Any insight helps.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:24 AM   #5
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

always start with the cheapest replacement first unless you can find a good deal or have money like that. Try to stay away from used electronics off Ebay.

usually when the charging system starts to fail or has failed, the r/r and stator take either other out.
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:44 AM   #6
cmschex
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

No money. I'm on the broke college kid budget for the next year or so. The rect/reg looks to be about $120 and the stator looks to be about $200.

Does anybody have any suggestions on where to buy these things? (as economically as possible of course)
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Old 04-22-2011, 08:47 AM   #7
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Sorry mate, you mentioned it i just didnt see it. Drain the oil and physically inspect the stator. Look for discoloration on one of the arms for burning, sounds like 1/3 of the stator is nonfunctional. I don't know if one would take out the other, someone else might have had both go but mines just been the rr. G'luck.

Last edited by RichiB; 04-22-2011 at 08:48 AM. Reason: Clarifying
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Old 04-22-2011, 10:33 AM   #8
john kinzell
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichiB View Post
Sorry mate, you mentioned it i just didnt see it. Drain the oil and physically inspect the stator. Look for discoloration on one of the arms for burning, sounds like 1/3 of the stator is nonfunctional. I don't know if one would take out the other, someone else might have had both go but mines just been the rr. G'luck.
40 jolts out of alternator is marginal.. replace the R/R first as there is a fault in this, check thief-bay for a used one (I have bought 2-3 and they were all fine). still no work then its time to replace the stator, check the aftermarket stuff, they are usually cheaper than OEM..
Luck.
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Old 04-23-2011, 11:48 AM   #9
cmschex
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Should I just replace the RR with a stock unit (the SCR type)?

What are your thoughts on switching to a MOSFET unit from a Yamaha or the unit from Shindengen?

While I'm changing the RR, should I go ahead and relocate it for better airflow so that it doesn't happen again?
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:06 AM   #10
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

I am having a similar problem with my k8 750 (battery not charging), I am about to run through all those checks myself. Within the next couple of days I will post my results. Hopefully it will not be anything major like having to replace the generator stator...

A side note, I found out that my battery doesnt charge the hard way. I was out riding - thankfully with a couple of buddies, and on our way home I couldn't start the bike again. 120 km from my house it was gonna be an expensive tow. We tried push starting my bike but apparently you cant. The engine would catch for a second, cut off, catch, cut off. A few times it would pulse, power, no power, power, no power.

My buddy switched batteries with me. He gave me his (he rides a 2002 fireblade) we were able to push start his bike no problem (with my dead battery). Thankfully I made it home, but we had to switch batteries a few times along the way. I would be riding down the highway, then my oil light would come on - SD error would appear. A few minutes later my lights would go out, then my whole dash would freeze. I made a mistake of touching my indicator signal, as soon as I did that the power just cut out - at 140km/h on the highway.

It appears that my bike absolutely needs to have a charged battery to run, not just to start.

Question:
If my battery was able to charge would I be able to jump start my bike? I am guessing as soon as I got engine power the battery will be charging and all they systems would be running of it. But since my battery cannot charge I cant keep the bike running.
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Old 04-26-2011, 11:16 AM   #11
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmschex View Post
Should I just replace the RR with a stock unit (the SCR type)?

What are your thoughts on switching to a MOSFET unit from a Yamaha or the unit from Shindengen?

While I'm changing the RR, should I go ahead and relocate it for better airflow so that it doesn't happen again?

If you get the MOSFET you will not have to worry about overheating. The MOSFET R/R do not get as hot, the Shindengen are MOSFET.

gsxr_freak has the shindengen on his 750 SRAD, I bought one but have not installed it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rhuhawk View Post
It appears that my bike absolutely needs to have a charged battery to run, not just to start.

Question:
If my battery was able to charge would I be able to jump start my bike? I am guessing as soon as I got engine power the battery will be charging and all they systems would be running of it. But since my battery cannot charge I cant keep the bike running.


All bikes require a battery to run. It is part of the system, no battery, no go.


Answer to your question:

You can jump start a bike, if using a vehicle it is best to do it without the vehicle running. But it can be done with the vehicle running, I have done this when the battery was completely flat.

Your battery may be fine, it's the charging system that is not. Have the battery checked, and troubleshoot the stator and R/R.
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Old 04-27-2011, 04:49 PM   #12
rhuhawk
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

OK so I did some tests:

Battery Current Leakage: none

Regulated Voltage Inspection:
Power off: 12.9V
Switch ON: 12.39V
5000RPM: 12.41V

Generator Coil Resistance:
0.5 ohm across all 3 lead wires

No Load Performance:
At 5000RPM:
~50V (AC) between the top and the left lead, ~50V (AC) between the right and the left lead, 0 V (AV) between the top and the right lead.

Checked that a few times to make sure.

Unfortunately I can't disconnect the R/R plug. I try to depress the little plastic thing and pull - nothing is moving. I don't want to pull too hard either. Here is a pic of the connectors I am trying to undo any suggestions?

CIMG0906.JPG

Should I keep trying to pull that apart or is it pretty clear that I am going to need a new generator?
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Old 04-27-2011, 06:59 PM   #13
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

I figured out how to disconnect the couplers - used a tiny screwdriver to depress the locking mechanism.

Here is what my regulator/rectifier test looked like:
Screen shot 2011-04-27 at 7.51.46 PM.jpg

This is what they should be according to the manual:
Screen shot 2011-04-27 at 7.55.27 PM.jpg

The first two lines are withing limits but everything else is high by 0.3-0.5V
Is that significant?

So in summary:
"No load generator" test failed and most of the rectifier/regulator voltages are a bit high.

What do you guys think? I have to replace both the generator stator and R/R?
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Old 05-07-2011, 10:52 AM   #14
rhuhawk
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Any ideas?
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Old 05-07-2011, 11:18 AM   #15
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

Well numbers do not lie. If they are not within spec, they are not within spec.

If one component goes out, it can take the other with it.

In your case with your numbers you got, both are shot.
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Old 05-20-2011, 01:39 PM   #16
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

I would go with the Mosfet R/R first, it can't be hurt by a bad stator.
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Old 05-21-2011, 10:12 AM   #17
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

The suzuki multi-meter is for the regulator, not the stator. Regular multimeter is good for the stator tests. Readings on the regulator will be different.
If you did the no-load stator tests properly, then replace stator first.
Can't test the stator with it connected...so if those readings were with the stator disconnected...stator is definitely fried.
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:11 PM   #18
Vala
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Re: Regulator/Rectifier and Generator problems/questions

I am having similar issues with my charging system.
(Can anyone tell me what the diode results for mosfet regulator FH012AA should be?)
I have now replaced the R/R with a mosfet one. I also replaced the stator.

My R/R diode test results were a bit off all along the tests so I replaced it.
The generator was providing only 40 - 60 V @2000 - 5000 rpm. One of the three stator coil groups was badly burned. I replaced the stator.

After replacing the damaged parts the voltage on the battery +- was on the required scale, 14,5. After driving about a 100 kms on a very hot day the problems returned. (Bike running voltage at battery -+ only ~12,5.) The new R/R was placed exactly were the original was and I am now guessing the new R/R might have overheated as well.

At the moment the generator produced the required voltage, 80 and above @5000 rpm and the coil resistances are ok.

I am trying to test the mosfet R/R Shindengen FH012AA (Yamaha part number 1D7-81960-00-00) but I cant find information on the diode test results for it. Can some one help me with this?

UPDATE:
I now moved the R/R to another location: above the rear wheel under the tail. It is bolted on using the horns little metal plate on the passengers now removed foot rest. Works perfectly.
So the problem probably was too much heat in the original location that caused the R/R to function less efficiently (at 100C degrees that the engine runs probably 0 efficiency http://www.shindengen.dev03.newermed...012%20Data.pdf)

Last edited by Vala; 06-30-2011 at 03:09 PM. Reason: Results
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