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Old 04-18-2009, 10:27 AM   #1
greekguy
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removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

holly s..t those bolts are hard,

i have replaced my seized srad 600v engine from a srad 600 x model

curious- as im studying to be a mechanic i started dismantling the seized engine

i removed the camshafts+guides
i have removed the 3 6mm sidebolts that connect cylinder haed to cylinder BUT!
the 10mm wont budge....

the bad thing that in there the only thing that can reach the 10mm bolts are deep sockets, problem is that for bolt size 12 the only deep socket i have is 1/4inch ...

so i put my 3/8 to 1/4 bluepoint adaptor to my snapon ATECH2FR100 torque wrench and i tried to untorque.

MY MISTAKE WAS THAT I DIDNT CHECK THE UNTORQUE SEQUENCE AND STARTED UNTORQUING RANDOMLY.....

so according to service manual i untorqued numbers 10 9 8 7 and number 6 broke my 3/8 to 1/4 bl;uepoint adapter!!!!! ARGH!!!! cursingcursing


-i must say that my ATECH2FR100 counted 100nm before breaking the adaptor....


Snif snif,
what should i do now? what tool do you use to untorque these?
its so tight in there.........
maybe a DEEEEEEP 12mm 1/2 socket? it must be reaaally deep before it fattens for the 1/2head????

please provide a picture of the tool that you use....


(im studying to be a motorcycle mechanic but my school is closed right now due togreek easter)

Last edited by greekguy; 04-18-2009 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:59 AM   #2
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

do you have a reason not telling me the answer that i seek?

I KNOW that there are mnay ppl here that have removed their cylinder head!

so, wtf?
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Old 04-19-2009, 01:56 PM   #3
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

i just used a deep socket and a breaker bar and they came out no problem
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Old 04-19-2009, 02:10 PM   #4
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

Quote: "(im studying to be a motorcycle mechanic but my school is closed right now due togreek easter)"

KEEP STUDYING!
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Old 04-19-2009, 02:43 PM   #5
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

The best thing to learn if you want to be a mechanic... learn to use the proper tools. Torque wrenches are for *torquing* things down, not taking them off. Thats what air tools are for or breaker bars.
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Old 04-19-2009, 02:53 PM   #6
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

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Originally Posted by Skullman14 View Post
The best thing to learn if you want to be a mechanic... learn to use the proper tools. Torque wrenches are for *torquing* things down, not taking them off. Thats what air tools are for or breaker bars.
TRUE That!
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Old 04-19-2009, 04:32 PM   #7
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

[QUOTE=greekguy;3681159]

Snif snif,
what should i do now? what tool do you use to untorque these?
its so tight in there.........
maybe a DEEEEEEP 12mm 1/2 socket? it must be reaaally deep before it fattens for the 1/2head????QUOTE]

try a thin wall 3/8 deepwell socket...they do make them...even thin wall 1/2 inch sockets...
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:13 PM   #8
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

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Originally Posted by 96mustang View Post

try a thin wall 3/8 deepwell socket...they do make them...even thin wall 1/2 inch sockets...
I used a 3/8in drive 12mm deep socket (if i remember right) and used an adapter so i could use a breaker bar with a 1/2in drive and they broke loose with ease.
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Old 04-20-2009, 02:00 AM   #9
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by THE SRADIATOR View Post
TRUE That!
i know that, the reason that i used my torque wrench is that its the longest tool i have so it can apply the most strength+i wanted to get a reading onthe "crazy" torque resistance

1i dont have an air tool, is it really safe to untorque cylinder heads bolts with those??? (brake factor?)

2the thing that troubles me is that my torque wrench applied aprox 90nm of strength when the manual sais to tighten em with 43 and they didnt budge....
-is that "normal"?if not what could result to that?
-could this have to do with the seized engine??? -1broken conrod on crankshaft side -pistons move freely in all barrels +crankshaft rotates freely.


3what is the best fluid i could apply to the bolts to make em untie easier?
how long should i leave it to soak before retrying???

4are breaker bars, t-tools that you mount extensions and sockets? -im greek -my english are limited


thank you for you help and suport!

Last edited by greekguy; 04-20-2009 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:01 AM   #10
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

I would put 2 box wrenches on the bolts for leverage if you can fit them in there as opposed to using the torque wrench for anything other than torquing something down, you can and will damage it and knock it out of calibration.
Heres a breaker bar: yes, you can mount extensions on them and reducers etc. http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item....re&dir=catalog

The reason it read so much is because over a long period of time and several heating and cooling cycles, it basically became seized more or less. It wasn't over tightened from the factory, it's just age.

I would use air tools, not an impact gun unless it was designed for lower torque, but an air ratchet would be good. I would also put all the head bolts back on and follow the manual for proper removal sequence. It'll make things easier and put less strain on the other studs.

I'm *assuming* you're in Greece, I don't know what products you have out there, but any type of penetrating lubricant will work. WD-40, PB Blaster etc.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:28 AM   #11
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

hm , when you say putting the other bolts back in and follwoing procedure,
how much should i tighten em? 43nm or more to mach the other seized ones?

i wasnt thinking that breaker bar, had smth else in mind

is that hing really 32 inch long???? wow!
i didnt knew those things even exist.... mechaincal scene in greece is really fooked up (i hope i start thr revolution )

is there some reason that i should use an air ratchet over this one?
from what i guess that can be really gentle with bolts if smbd puts enough attention when apllying force
i really have a tight balance :P and that thing look way cheaper than air ratchet compresser combo

is the air ratchet adjustable? like a torque wrench? it mounts up to a simple air compresser? i ll put one definately in my future garage wish list!

how many hours should i soak with wd40 before retrying untorquing????-1 layer will do or should i aply some, soak some time, aply some more wait and then attempt....
and my most feared outcome, has anybody heard of a srad cylinder head bolt breaking?

how many nm could a 10mm bolt of this quality handle before breakage???
from what i have applied on, i believe that it will need minimum 120nm to untorque!


skullman thank you so much for your priceless info! give me some more :P
and yes im in greece

Last edited by greekguy; 04-20-2009 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:53 AM   #12
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

No, you don't need to re-torque them all back down, that'd just be a waste of time. I'd just put em on and tighten them a little bit just to give it some balance. That breaker bar isn't the only one, there's a whole lot made by other companies: longer, shorter, cheaper, different drives. That one was just an example.
I try to use air tools anytime I can, it makes the job easier. Tools were designed and made for a reason. Work smarter, not harder.
Some air tools can be adjusted, not fine tuned and specific like a torque wrench, but they can be adjusted by air flow. Yes, they hook up to an air compressor, that's all there is to it.

As far as the WD-40 (or whatever you're using) I'd spray it on each nut and then let it sit for maybe 5-10 mins or whatever you choose. If it doesn't work, spray it again and let it sit for a little while longer, you'll get it eventually.

I'm sure someone has broken head bolts before, shit happens. As far as how many pounds it could take, I couldn't answer that, no body could. Theres all kinds of different scenarios.

Whatever you want to know, just ask.
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:29 AM   #13
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

thx for the swift reply man, i take it airatchets are accurate impact wrenches , correct?

if that thing brakesin there it will be devastating for me, i dont have the tools to remove the broken bolt and i cannot transport the engine on a place that they will remove it(i can but it will be very difficult)

for that reason if smbd knows please tell me how many nm should i apply with my torque wrench to the 10mm bolt without worrying of braking it
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Old 04-20-2009, 10:00 AM   #14
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

I have pulled the head many times on a few different SRADs. Never had to worry about the order, they all came out. I used a normal socket with an extension but it was done with the motor out of the bike.

John
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Old 04-20-2009, 01:49 PM   #15
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

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I have pulled the head many times on a few different SRADs. Never had to worry about the order, they all came out. I used a normal socket with an extension but it was done with the motor out of the bike.

John
the 1/2 sockets dont fit in there for sure, maybe you used a 3/8?

how do you support your removed engines?wood-metal? care to show me a pic freak?

and as i said before the engine is allready removed from frame, problem is i dont have a proper support for it keeping it stable+upright

and i have the engine laying on side on a wooden bench-when i was trying to apply force the engine was moving -trying to rotate

i know that shouldnt been happening+but it is a siezed engine that i will repair at some point if i have all the req parts
-right now its just a test subject
and extremely valuable source of info for me
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Old 04-20-2009, 03:35 PM   #16
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

Sorry to hijack the thread buy I have the head off of my 600f3 trying to fix a shady mechanic's work. Do you have to commonly replace the headbolts on motorcycle engines like with some cars?

I.E. are the OEM bolts one time use only (i.e. strech once) and then no longer maintain adequate strength.

The mechanic broke one of the head bolts so I gotta take the block to a machine shop to get it drilled out and was curious if I need to replace all 10 bolts at 8 bucks a piece or if I could just replace one....
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Old 04-20-2009, 04:03 PM   #17
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

I used 3/8s for sure. Not 1/2 drive.
I take them out, put the motor on the bench and use a large breaker bar to pull on the ratchet.

I hold the motor with my other hand and give a good quick pull.

If it seized from heat, you might have a hard time with that case.

John
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Old 04-20-2009, 05:22 PM   #18
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

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Sorry to hijack the thread buy I have the head off of my 600f3 trying to fix a shady mechanic's work. Do you have to commonly replace the headbolts on motorcycle engines like with some cars?

I.E. are the OEM bolts one time use only (i.e. strech once) and then no longer maintain adequate strength.

The mechanic broke one of the head bolts so I gotta take the block to a machine shop to get it drilled out and was curious if I need to replace all 10 bolts at 8 bucks a piece or if I could just replace one....
The head bolts are not one time use only. They are hardened steel so if you had to toss them and buy new ones it would be pretty pricey. U reuse the old ones when reinstalling the head.

Before you take it to a mechanic have you tried an easy out? basically a drill bit that is reverse threaded. It might not be enough to grab hold of to break it free but worth a try before you take it to a machine shop and spend a bunch of money. if you damage any threads there are threading tools that you can re-thread it with. I had an issue once with my old truck where i had a tool break off in my crank shaft front threads and thought i was fucked but used an easy out and re-threaded it and i was fine
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Last edited by Knuckles GSXR; 04-20-2009 at 05:24 PM.
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Old 04-21-2009, 09:02 AM   #19
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

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The head bolts are not one time use only. They are hardened steel so if you had to toss them and buy new ones it would be pretty pricey. U reuse the old ones when reinstalling the head.

Before you take it to a mechanic have you tried an easy out? basically a drill bit that is reverse threaded. It might not be enough to grab hold of to break it free but worth a try before you take it to a machine shop and spend a bunch of money. if you damage any threads there are threading tools that you can re-thread it with. I had an issue once with my old truck where i had a tool break off in my crank shaft front threads and thought i was fucked but used an easy out and re-threaded it and i was fine
Thanks, I have a fair amount of experience removing broken bolts. But this one broke off below the surface of the block (no vise grips and no grinding a common screwdriver slot in the top of the bolt) and the broken section's profile is like a mountain top so I can get a drill to bite without slipping off and into the threads. The bolt is also hardened steel so I haven't had any luck trying to hammer a point or slot into the top of the bolt and can't get a dremmel tool in there.

Really what I need is a bench and angled drilled press that won't slip, i.e. a machine shop . But my g/f works with a guy going to motorcycle school and he volunteered to do it for free at the school so......I figure why mess around and screw up the threads with a hand drill if you can do it right, right?

If anyone is in Orlando stay away from Extreme Bikes on Goldenrod. Took it in for a broken valve cover bolt and got it back with a broken head bolt. Took my head off and he didn't put the cams back in right, or torque them properly (some were finger loose), and go figure I have no compression becase he broke a head bolt and just left it in there rattling around.

At least now I'm comfortable dropping a bike engine. Won't feel the need to play it 'safe' and take it to a 'professional' again.

Rob

PS Same sentiments to the OP as posted above. No torque wrench breaking loose bolts. I used a 3/8's socket wrench with a hex socket (allen) and a 18" wrench on the end of the socket wrench to break it loose. Wouldn't be surprised if it took 120-130 ft/lbs of torque. Suckers were tight.
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Old 04-21-2009, 11:23 AM   #20
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Re: removing 600 srad v cylinder head-TITAN STRENGTH 10mm bolts...

rob, why don't you just take it back to them and raise hell?
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