I'm starting to question whether body position matters : Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums: Gixxer.com

**Will Goes Boing** · 11-26-2007, 09:39 PM

Reason being I've seen some really fast people.... riding with really jacked up body positions.

From what I've seen the only racing where EVERYBODY has the text book perfect body position are present day motogp riders. I've even seen some old gp riders or current ama riders with pretty jacked up body positions.

So if it doesn't really matter.... why do people stress good body position?

**Tasman** · 11-26-2007, 11:53 PM

You really like this part of the forum. I do also.
You are correct a lot of people can go very fast with a jacked up pody position. Even in motogp Tony Elias is using one. Motojoe also is using one. I used to use one.
This is my conclution. Even if you are have a bad body position you can go very fast. The reson for this is that differend pody potions can give you different advantages and disatvantages. The pody potion that motojoe or Tony Elias are using which they get off the seat a lot can give them more corner speed put with the disatvantage that if something goes wrong they dont have good control of the bike and a crash is on the way. Motojoe has posted a pic of his a while back which was showing his outsite leg almost not touching the peg. You cant have everything.
Sorry motojoe for using you as an example. (you are a good one)

**Sucram** · 11-27-2007, 01:14 AM

It does and doesnt.

You can use a very straight and upright position up to a pretty fast level. IMO you have to push your tyres a fair bit and have a lot of confidence doing so. I generally sit upright when doing suspension/geometry testing as it brings out problems at a slower speed then a full crouch. This gives me time to react, process and assess whats going on.

One of my riding buddies has MX bars on his K6, he's an older guy and goes around guys who are getting their knee down in the twisties and a lot of guys on the track.

Effective and quick counter steering, corner speed and lines are far more important then body position.

However, when we ride at a certain pace, he can not keep up. He starts to run wide, if im behind him I can drop my inside sholder to reduce my bike running wide (we have the exact same bike and same tyres) and I can pass him on the gas.

Like Tasman said, different body positions have different advantages, just like different seat positions have different effects, which is amplified the quicker you go.

Currently, im hanging off a fair bit, 1 full bum cheek off the seat, as Im turning in my only real concern is keeping my inside arm in a correct manner to put enough bar pressure. For me to keep my back and head level/straight, my bars have been moved outwards a few degrees and I grab the clip on near the bar end. My head is up. Does this give you an idea why I prefer to use this position on turn in?

The really good guys who give you tips from pictures ask where you are in the corner (or can see) and give you tips for that part of the corner, they will also give tips on what you will want to try at other parts such as the apex and on corner exit.

Everyone else will just go off what they think is "text book" and for most people, its fine

**Ibidu1** · 11-27-2007, 03:27 AM

Body position is very important, but I also believe the positions change with the bike and the bikes suspension geometry. Having a wrong position can be very bad. I have seen lots of guys lowside from not hanging enough. If your bikes scraping pegs and exhaust, then you need to hangoff more.

Also your body position should change driving out of the turn

**Tasman** · 11-27-2007, 04:10 AM

"the first step is to recognise that we all have a resistance to learning. Once we have learnt to do something routinely we are very reluctant to alter that routine, whatever the evidence that it does not work" from Motorcycle Roadcraft.
Have you ever tried to correct someones or even a friends body position? (especially some one that it is faster than you)
Its like talking to a wall.
I have 2 closed friends that we ride a lot for the last year. It took me 6 months to convise one of them to try something different and the other is still reluctant to try something knew.
Come on. just try it and if it doesnot work go back.

**reapser** · 12-28-2007, 10:14 AM

No one mention it but I really think is due to the different tracks that you go to. I sometimes catch myself turning in the bike with my lower body and sometimes by just countersteering. So I really think you have to adjust you riding to that specific track and bike set up. Just read what Colin Edwards sais. There is no right or wrong way, but if you see others going faster is probably cuz they have more experience with that specific track.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html

**pcb122** · 12-28-2007, 01:16 PM

proper body position is very important. while hanging off to varying degrees helps decrease required lean angle, it can be a tradeoff in stability.

If you're hanging off like a monkey, you might be adding weight to the bars, not able to properly weight your pegs, or you may not be able to recover well if something goes wrong. hanging off less and feeling more in control of the bike is best...

**ant f** · 12-28-2007, 05:45 PM

there are fundamentals that are right and wrong. at a beginner level you should aim for what is a shared consensus on correct form on a modern race bike. to pretend it doesnt matter is foolish and dangerous. and it will inhibit your ablilty to progress.

**Will Goes Boing** · 12-28-2007, 05:50 PM

Reason I say that is...... as mentioned in my first post I've seen a lot of great riders who ride with jacked up body positions (ie. kevin shwantz, norick abe, toni elias) and can ride at international level.

And another thing is that I can completely intentionally jack up my form and still ride faster than majority of the guys I ride with. Like one time I intentionally twisted my ass off the seat pushing the bike down and I rode fine.... another time I did the toni elias thing hanging my entire butt off and I rode fine.

Just very uncomfortable..... but could ride just fine. So I started to wonder if its personal style/preference as oppose to function.

Take this for example.... from what I've been told I have great body positioning:

And then look at this guy's... kevin shwantz style!:

**Grandevil** · 12-28-2007, 06:13 PM

I don't think it's just a matter of having your body in the right place, but having it there and using it correctly while there, like making sure your arms are loose enough to properly control the bike from the bars, using your knees on the tank and weighting the pegs properly, all of these cant be read just from looking at body position but body position is an integral part of mastering those manipulations. It would be counterproductive by using good steering inputs but a body position that makes the bike turn wide, you'd just be fighting yourself.

As others said I'm sure there are advantages and disadvantages and they work differently depending on who is using them.

Simply mimicking is not enough.

Edit: (just realized I said almost exactly what someone else said).

**reapser** · 12-28-2007, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcb122

proper body position is very important. while hanging off to varying degrees helps decrease required lean angle, it can be a tradeoff in stability.

If you're hanging off like a monkey, you might be adding weight to the bars, not able to properly weight your pegs, or you may not be able to recover well if something goes wrong. hanging off less and feeling more in control of the bike is best...

+1

Thats why its best to change your way of entering and exiting the cormer to see if lap times improve. Hanging way off is not a great idea either but on occasions you find urself in a corner that is banked heavily in the way your going and you just have to really hang off to maintain traction. Will, you'll find this out in Streets of Willow when we go next year.

**reapser** · 12-28-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will Goes Boing

Reason I say that is...... as mentioned in my first post I've seen a lot of great riders who ride with jacked up body positions (ie. kevin shwantz, norick abe, toni elias) and can ride at international level.

And another thing is that I can completely intentionally jack up my form and still ride faster than majority of the guys I ride with. Like one time I intentionally twisted my ass off the seat pushing the bike down and I rode fine.... another time I did the toni elias thing hanging my entire butt off and I rode fine.

Just very uncomfortable..... but could ride just fine. So I started to wonder if its personal style/preference as oppose to function.

Take this for example.... from what I've been told I have great body positioning:

And then look at this guy's... kevin shwantz style!:

Will, I dont think you can really compare because it may be a different type of turn. Compare it with the same turn with different riders and then make your own conclusions, thats what I do. Chicanes are really tricky too cuz you actually have too throw the bike in the opposite direction with your lower body, but that also depends on what type of chicane it is.

**turbodogs02** · 12-28-2007, 07:44 PM

To me the body position "arguement" comes down to this.....

There are basic fundamentals of riding/body position, that while learning to actually ride the bike should be taken into account and used as a guideline. With that said, and has already been stated, everyone does it different.

Think of it like a golf swing (or tennis or any other type of sport for that matter). There are basic fundamental elements that say, hold the club like this, shift your weight this way, rotate through like this. With that foundation layed when you are learning, you can then branch off from that foundation and begin to explore other ways and methods that may yield better results for you. Everyone has a different technique. But if you find yourself getting lost in your experiments, you can always go back to your original foundations and start again. And because the foundation is good and solid you know that is always a starting point to begin again.

I think the same applies to riding techniques. Build a good solid general base, then experiment and explore from there until you find just the right method that yields the best results for you.

**ant f** · 12-29-2007, 09:13 AM

who is it you are comparing yourself to Will?

being faster than your mates is hardly a determining factor on what is wrong or right when it comes to technique.

that other guy you posted a pic of has nothing in commen with Kevin schwantz. look at how tight he is gripping the bars to hold his upper body in position. hes a low side waiting to happen.

**pcb122** · 12-29-2007, 05:10 PM

the guy in the pic has the often discouraged twisting style...

while most teach against it, there are some very fast pros that use that style.

I think textbook body positioning, with head and spine to the inside and parallel to the bike, is most effective. If you look at the best of the best these days, you don't see the twisting style. There isn't much mystery as to why Ben Spies is the king of AMA