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Why Are Fast Guys Fast?

5K views 99 replies 36 participants last post by  COBRA90GT 
#1 ·
We all know that one must have proper body positioning, throttle control, and braking technique in order to ride at an intermediate to advanced pace for trackdays and racing. However, one can only move their body into the right position by so much. One can only brake so hard and have so much throttle control. So what exactly is it that makes the super fast guys go, well, super fast? Is it experience? Is it proper bike setup? But if it is those things, then why arent the old fuckers flying around like AMA guys? Am I the only one who has wondered this?

So, if there are any super fast guys on here, or anyone who knows some superfast guys, please let me know how you got that way. This question has really been bugging me especially as I watch CCS and AMA youtube vids. I know that practice makes perfect, but how does that explain the kids coming up thru the ranks by the time their 18? And those CCS guys have the same body positioning, braking points, etc as the AMA guys, yet the AMA guys would blow a CCS rider out of the water. What makes them tick? Im a bit tipsy so hopefully this line of questioning makes sense. Someone please cure me curiosity.
 
#44 ·
but with so many people around the world being able to go fast, it's not just a question of genetics.
Take a look at the few amount of people that can actually do very well in upper tiers of racing vs the world's population, and you soon realize that"so many people" is not really an accurate statement. There are very few that are true talents in any given field. There are many that can do things, and do them well, but that next level is beyond the grasp of most.
 
#45 ·
Hell vs the motorcycling population.

Of people who RIDE bikes less than 1% do track days/race. Of that 1% I'd bet less than 1% go fast enough to be a top ten club racer. And of those top level club racers less than 1% make it to be a top level pro on a national level. And less than. 1% of those make it to top.level on a world level.

It is a tiny percentage
 
#60 ·
I believe that a person can work very hard to get to a certain point in any field of choice, but to be among or one of THE best, they must be born with certain traits and natural instincts that simply cannot be taught or learned. People who say "you can do anything you want in this world if you put your mind to it" are full of shit and they know it.
 
#66 ·
Good thread/discussion; along similar lines of thought already voiced in the thread, I feel that the top tier riders are able to take it to that next level because they have that natural, innate talent that can't be taught and that's why they are the best at what they do - they rise to the top. IMHO, that's what makes them REALLY good.

On a related sidenote, I just watched the Red Bull Rookies Cup documentary vids (search for it on YouTube) and it might be of interest to others who have been reading this thread... :)
 
#70 ·
The essence of what I am saying is this:

If you believe people on the grid are naturally better than you, then why the hell would you even bother start racing in the first place?
Because you hope that one of them might have an off day and you could pick up the pieces? That's a pretty pathetic way to race or compete if you ask me.

Ask any mental coach or former race and he or she will tell you exactly the same.
 
#72 ·
I can completely agree with this statement. If you have the mindset of oh Ill just shoot for podium, you need to stop racing for competition. I know some guys are out there just for fun and I get that, but those who want to advance cant have that mindset.

However, Ill go back to my previous post. Ill have the "I AM GOING to win" mindset for each race, but to truly believe I can be a MotoGP champion in the grand scheme of things is foolish. BUT, if by some miracle I do get to a MotoGP grid, I will full heartily KNOW I can win that race. If Im there, I can win it. But getting there is all but impossible. Soooo much contradiction I know. O well. Best I can explain it.

Did all that sound douchey? Not meant to be douchey. :lmao
 
#73 ·
Ideally I think the term you can do anything you put your mind to is what parents say to there children as the world is theirs for the taking.
At an adult age I can under stand the guys above saying I believe I can improve and win races but I may never start in motogp. Yes I see that but it's this mind set which has held you back all your life.
To get to the top in anything you must believe without a doubt in your mind that you belong there no matter how many people tell you that you will never get there.
When you have that mind set people can see that confidence in you and doors will open.
But its not easy to get that confident mind set as you yourself have to believe it not just make people around you think it.


Sent from my iPhone using Motorcycle.com App
 
#74 ·
It's instinct. Genetics. Courage. The love for the sport. Spatial-processing. Having a 'rhythm' on any given day. Confidence. Single-mindedness/focus, muscle-memory, coordination, talent, drive, practice, money, strategy, etc.

The blank-slate hypothesis has been thoroughly-debunked. Dr. Steven Pinker's relevant book is, 'The Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature'. Basically, talent is a big part of it, but that talent has to be nurtured. It's both nature and nurture. We are not simple blank slates that can be programmed to be great riders. Great riders are born but they also have to develop that talent.

I'm an artist, so a lot of people have asked me all my life, 'Where does this art come from?'. It's talent and practice. It's both. When people say, 'I could be an artist if I wanted to' my reply is, 'Wanting to be an artist is just the first step.' In other words, you have to WANT something to be something, or at least it helps a lot. Someone who loves art and has talent will excel. Likewise, I'm guessing that like most of us who like riding, great riders love to ride.

Another good quip is this one,

A lost traveler was looking for directions. He stopped a man on the street and asked, 'What's the best way to Carnegie Hall?'

The man smiled and replied, 'Practice'.

--
 
#77 ·
Interesting comment from Ben Spies, a MotoGP rider at the top levels. I though it was relevant here given the topic of discussion of how important certain levels of confidence are for a successful rider. Kinda goes against what some people were saying that you NEED to KNOW you can win a championship or races to actually do it, yet Ben Spies, a man who has won MotoGP races wont comment on IF he can/will win or not.

Ben Spies said:
At that point, I started thinking a lot and finally concluded that I haven’t reached my full capabilities in MotoGP. What that is, I don’t know. I’m not going to say I can win this many races or a championship, but I don’t want to walk away and in five years say, I could have done this or that.
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/01/02/ben-spies-leaves-yamaha-for-ducati/
 
#78 ·
I think Ben made a business decision more than anything else by going to Ducati. Moving onto a Ducati has been career suicide for everyone except Casey Stoner. As long as the bike doesn't blow up or collapse beneath him I can't imagine he'll do any worse than he did in 2011 (which I think was 10th or 11th in the final points).

But I do see his point. He definitely has outright speed and he's shown it several times when he's shot to the front. But I think his problems were both a combination of

1 - bike/equipment/mechanical issues
2 - racecraft: he's shown blazing speed, but he tends to fade, or he starts slow and picks up the pace later in the race after it's too late.
3 - confidence: big part of this being a byproduct of number 1 up there


I hope he has a decent 2013 and jumps to Suzuki and has them build a bike around HIM for the 2014 season when they are supposed to re-join MotoGP
 
#80 ·
confidence in your bike is def key to going fast. i actually think Spies is going to excel on Ducati, but I would LOVE to see him go to Suzuki in 2014.
 
#79 ·
Interesting comment from Ben Spies, a MotoGP rider at the top levels. I though it was relevant here given the topic of discussion of how important certain levels of confidence are for a successful rider. Kinda goes against what some people were saying that you NEED to KNOW you can win a championship or races to actually do it, yet Ben Spies, a man who has won MotoGP races wont comment on IF he can/will win or not. <br />
<br />
At that point, I started thinking a lot and finally concluded that I haven’t reached my full capabilities in MotoGP. What that is, I don’t know. I’m not going to say I can win this many races or a championship, but I don’t want to walk away and in five years say, I could have done this or that.
<br />
<br />
http://www.cycleworld.com/2013/01/02/ben-spies-leaves-yamaha-for-ducati/
That is PR spin. EVERYTHING a rider says at that level, positive or negative, is used against them. That was the epitome of a neutral non committal answer for the sake of pr
 
#84 ·
I am gonna agree with Joe here... Training will only take you so far. Natural ability is ultimately the determining factor, and sadly some people will never discover what they are great at. Like Joe said, the best motorcycle racer in the world could be a fucking eskimo, but they will never know because they are too busy running from fucking polar bears.
 
#85 ·
those damn polar bears! :cursing

I agree. You have to be born with it. However you also need to be in the right place at the right time, have confidence, AND determination to be the best. Its a perfect storm scenario.
 
#86 ·
There are ten million little things you need to do well and consistently do well. They're just a little bit better going into every turn and a little bit better through each turn and a little bit coming out of each turn. Add up all those little bits and you end up with a second or two or three- which is what separates the racers and the elite.
At the super elite levels, that's when "natural ability" comes into play. I'm convinced just about anyone could make it to the AMA if it was their life goal from childhood. It requires a fuck ton of work, but it can be done. Now going from AMA to top dog, well, someone has to better at it. Even then, I bet the amount of work you put in has a lot to do with it. You can see it in professional sports that are very skill oriented like baseball. Harder working athletes prevail and those who show up with the biggest headstart and all the talent in the world fail after one good season and taking it for granted. That's the professional level.


I was a fairly good wrestler in high school. I would practice with one of the best in the country who would train with his cousin who was an elite college wrestler under Dan Gable at Iowa (google it). We would spend 2-3 hours after a 2 hour practice doing the same move, or in most days, part of it. We'd drill the same 1/4th of a seemingly simple take-down for 2-3 hours. Same three steps-arm up, shoot in, grab ankle. Next week, grab ankle, switch feet. A zillion times. After doing that, I could tell most anyone that wasn't an elite wrestler I was going to take them down with that move and they couldn't defend against it.

As with any skill you hone in like this, whether it be throwing a baseball or riding a motorcycle or skiing down a mountain, it's all in the details. That's why you practice every minutia a million times.




Cliff notes: They work harder, longer. No real secret.
 
#88 ·
+1

Getting into the show at an AMA race is not THAT hard. All you need are

1 - a pro card
2 - enough money to pay entry fees, spec fuel, tires etc etc
3 - able to qualify with 110% of the pole setter's laptime


Running in the top 5 or finishing on the podium every week........that's a whole other story.
 
#90 ·
Yup. Anyone that can podium an average amateur race (not a no show race) can likely make the show in super sport with the right credentials and money.

But the superspoort class is a mere shadow of the ama of old. It is a feeder class. A glorifies club race.

Dsb and being more than an"also ran" however is an entirely different ball of wax
 
#89 ·
Make the AMA as in qualify for a race, or actually be competitive? If you are just saying qualify for a race, I will agree with you. Getting under the 107% is difficult for sure, but is doable for most people with enough hard work and money. Actually being competitive, fast enough to run, say, in the top 15, I will disagree with, as that takes a good amount of work, money, and talent that isn't easily acquired.

Let me give you an example. My biggest dream is to sing opera, tenor specifically. No matter how hard I have trained, no matter how many vocal coaches I have had, no matter what I do, I will never be able to sing like Enrico Caruso, or even Andrea Bocelli to a lesser extent. It is nature versus nurture really, and in the end, nature always wins.
 
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