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Introducing EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER

137K views 1K replies 106 participants last post by  JP1143 
#1 ·
Hey Guys

This thread is gonna be about building my bike - The one that shall forever be known as EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER.

Why "El Toro" ? Because, as Borat would say, "It is STRONG, Like BULL". And the bull has great hunger for tires

I'm starting the thread because -
1. Its fun to share
2. I've learned so much from this site. Really seen some good threads on here. Its about time I start giving something back !!
3. Lots of smart guys on here. Never know when someone will give you

Anyways, I'm working on it right now, just starting the motor build. I'm going to start this thread off with some basic info, and throw some pics up. I'll keep adding pics

Basic info -

Motor -
1143 (4mm stroke, 3mm bore). Counterbalancer removed.
Pro ported head. Fresh valve job.
Carillo rods
1mm bigger intake valves
13.something compression ratio (haven't determined what I will be running exactly yet, I have 3 headgaskets to choose from - .028, .030, .036. And yes, I CC EVERYTHING to get the "true" static compression, I'm not just reading it off the box of the pistons!!
Big cams (.400 lift / 260 @ .040 intake, .358 242 @ .050 exhaust)
carpenter valve springs / yosh keepers (for durability)
Hindle full exhaust system (Superbike model, tapered headers, big dia through muffler)
Full studs
undercut tranny
Billet clutch basket
44mm throttlebodies (2mm overbore)
Powercommander
Velocity Stacks
Ceramic trans bearing
High volume oil pump gear (stock pressure relief valve though)
oil baffle
Carbon fiber ram air tubes
going to get Factory Pro to flow balance my injectors
Got a brand new K7 fuel pump that I'm going to use. Might modify the regulator for slightly higher fuel pressure (for finer fuel spray) - maybe aim for low/mid 50's
Putting in a brand new stock K4 oil pump too - never hurts .... good insurance

Extras -
16.5 inch forged mag marchesini's. Ceramic wheel bearings.
Have 16.5 cast mag Marvics for the track, stock wheel bearings. Got 5 of these really cheap, so i'd rather mess them up on the track than the nice Marchesini's!!
Road race slicks (200/70 Dunlop rear)
Superbike radiator (gonna take some work to make this work!!!)
Aluminum gas tank (ex superbike / endurance racer, 5 lbs lighter?). MIGHT run this tank, probably stick with stock tank this year due to time constraints
1.5lb battery (speedcell)
Quickshifter
Race bodywork for track. Have spare bodywork that I might convert to street bodywork for ease of swapping (also have nice clean stock bodywork that I use for the street)
2 shift lights (left one for about 10K, right for about 12K)
K5 forks, low mileage, with AK20's
Attack triple clamps, adjustable offset

Brakes -
Just bought an ISR master cylinder, can't WAIT to try it!!
Also got ZX14 Nissin calipers (8 pistons total, one pad per piston). Also haven't run, can't wait!
-2 stainless lines
Brembo 320mm rotors

Anyways. Thats just a start on the list..... theres more !!!!!!!! But that will come in time

OK, I'm going to throw some initial pics on. I'll keep adding to them, just gotta start somewhere!!

But first, lets get a few things out of the way -

A. YES, I KNOW THAT THIS BIKE IS COMPLETELY INSANE, COMPLETELY USELESS, THAT I CAN'T EVEN USE THE POWER OF THE STOCK MOTOR, OR EVEN MAX OUT THE STOCK CHASSIS.
B. YES, I KNOW THAT IF I WANTED TO GO FAST ON THE TRACK I'D BE BETTER OFF WITH A COMPLETELY STOCK GSXR600 (ok, maybe do fork springs and brake pads).
C. YES, I KNOW I'M PROBABLY VENTURING INTO AN AREA WHERE ONLY PROFESSIONAL MECHANICS SHOULD GO. I MAY BE BUILDING A TICKING TIME BOMB.
D. IF YOU DONT APPRECIATE OR ENJOY WHAT I'M DOING, I DONT GIVE A FUCK. THIS IS MY DREAM, THIS IS WHAT I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO DO. I REALLY DONT HAVE ANYTHING ELSE IN MY LIFE THAT I REALLY CARE ABOUT. Doing this sort of thing is really the only reason I have to wake up in the morning. The rest of my life is kinda boring and shitty. That might sound pathetic, and maybe it is, but at the end of the day - at least I have ONE thing that I care about. That puts me one ahead of a lot of people.
E. Pointing out the uselessness of this build is probably just going to encourage me to do even more.... so dont waste your breath....

Anyways!! Enough of that....... Introducing EL TORO !
 

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#969 · (Edited)
Iridium, I have a question for you. Since you like history, what occured on May 23 2009 ?
 
#970 ·
Well, I don't want to go into any details, but.... your mom is still smiling.........


hahahaha

(nobody get your panties in a wad, he and I chat all the time offline)


Yeah, I know, its when I started this thread

Which, is in a way, probably a subtle hint that I need to update this fucking thread........ :)
 
#972 ·
#971 ·
Iridium, you crack me up man. When you and Big Foxie come down, I'm taking you drinking so I can hear that sinister laugh of yours in person. Plus we will go out to the gun range too when we are not drinking or riding.

Did you see that other thread too?
 
#973 ·
Iridium, you crack me up man. When you and Big Foxie come down, I'm taking you drinking so I can hear that sinister laugh of yours in person. Plus we will go out to the gun range too when we are not drinking or riding.

Did you see that other thread too?
The GSXR1000 Performance Q thread?

Yeah I saw that. Honestly........ I don't know what I'm saying half the time I'm saying it either..... it just all kinda falls into place and sounds halfway right. And halfway crazy

And yeah, I do have an evil laugh / cackle. Either the funniest goddamn laugh ever... or the most evil laugh ever..... and sometimes both at the same time..... Thank god its really loud!!!

As they said in Super Troopers, "EVIL SHENANIGANS!!!" HEHEHEHEHE (insert deranged leprechaun laughter here)
 
#974 ·
Hey man, we had a big discusion about stacks while back. What do you think about the ones on the left on this link?
http://www.cougarred.com/gsxr1000k6.html

I think Yosh made some similar to these.
 
#975 ·
Wake up from hibernation man!!!
 
#976 ·
Thats it! I'm driving to Kansas.
 
#977 ·
STACKS! Came across the reference in here... using FP's stacks in my '03 with secondaries removed, Yosh cams, etc... milder than THIS build, but spry after a few flashes with the TEKA.

Where did this epic build go?!?! Looking for more of this kind of overkill...

PUMP IT UP! :D


-crisp
 
#978 ·
Hey Crispone, glad you chimed in man. See you had some nice weather for riding. Man its been to hot over here to ride. Rode my newer bike for about 15minutes 3 weeks ago. Just have been busy with work as usual. Need to get me a Ballistic batttery for my K4. Its been eating up the batteries. 14+ compression is hard on regular batteries.
 
#985 ·
So, what is the status on this bike? I am thinking of getting my '03 freshened up... need some inspiration!

View attachment 329482


-crisp :D
Crisp, what exactly is the status of your bike - what parts are on it now?

What sort of riding do you do? Street, drag, roadrace, top speed racing, etc?

Whats your budget, how fast do you want to go, how much maintenance / lifespan are you willing to keep up with & maintain?

Thats all stuff I'd ask myself before getting deep into any of this stuff

I will say one thing, after all the stuff i've been through, all the builds / time / effort, if I had to pick ONE place to start for REAL performance (ie, beyond what you can get with any bolt ons), i'd start with the head

And so far, I'm by far the most impressed with Tim Radley's work

I cant believe how much power Tim Radley's head made on my K8-1070

If I had known how hard that thing would run, I probably would have just stayed with stock cams instead of going with mid level or slightly bigger aftermarket cams (web cams, intake custom grind 483 + 6 degrees of extra duration -KWS special grind-, and 11i exhaust)

I could have saved myself a FUCKLOAD of trouble messing with piston to valve clearance..... altering cam timing to get to something minimally acceptable.... and running higher spring rates to try to keep the valvetrain in line, but at the same time worrying about the higher spring pressures.

If I had known what sorta power that head would make, I might have just run stock cams + 2000-2003 750 valve springs..... of course i woulda put on adjustable cam sprockets and dialed in the cam timing i wanted (why get deep into an engine & build and NOT do that ???)

i still would have done the 1070 kit. Maybe i'll regret that down the road, but.... eh.... thats a lot of extra displacement, not to mention the higher compression, AND having a fresh aftermarket nikasil plating (via Millenium) thats probably better quality than stock, not to mention that its done AFTER the engine has been run & heat cycled a bunch and any sort of residual metal stress / core shift has been worked through and the engines main parts aren't gonna change shape / distort much, if any more through the rest of the engines effective lifespan......

One thing I think helps the 1070s live and not blow headgaskets is running aftermarket head studs - finer threads + almost double torque wrench settings = far higher clamping load.... helping the head gasket not to blow out in the thin sections between the cylinder bores... and a 1070 motor DOES get fairly thin in the narrow section between one piston and the next

Oh yeah, as big as the valves are on these engines and as small as the bores are, the valves run close to the cylinder wall edges... some of the valve flow does get shrouded by cylinder wall being so close. Running the bigger bore, like the 1070, gets the cylinder wall farther away from the outside edges of the valves, and CAN help the cylinder breath better too. Huge difference? not necessarily... but once you get to a certain power level, every few HP starts costing. Whether in price or durability... it adds up

Anyways. I'm rambling. Of course, i suppose thats a return to form huh?? back to my usual ways?? :)

basically, if in doubt, i'd send my head to Tim Radley, and take whatever advice he gives u. Then do a 1070 kit (on a k1-K8, K9 plus is more limited in overbore capability i think). A set of stock cams from another bike MIGHT be a good bang for the buck, but I'd ask Tim about specific application...... then next step is aftermarket cams / springs, etc etc etc

Then u get into aftermarket rods, clutch baskets, then stroker cranks, etc

PS.

If you send the head or block off for machine work, get them milled / cut for dead flat on the head gasket surface. Ask for a minimal cut if you are worried about compression ratio, PTV, PTH clearance. Just ask for the minimal cut necessary to perfectly clean the head gasket surface.... just .0015 or .002 may be all thats necessary to make the surface dead flat & with the proper "tooth"... not too rough, not to smooth, just right to perfectly grab the gasket & keep it from leaking......
 
#981 · (Edited)
Hey.... I'm baaaaaaackkkkkk.... :)

JP has been bugging me forever to come back. I needed to

Big Foxie is still sitting, havent finished the wiring yet.... had a lot of things dragging me down

Anyways. I'm back now. I'll try not to take off for so long again!! Sorry for the absence!

I gotta eat some food now, I'll be back later and post more, fill in some details

PS. Just picked up a bike I need to sell. Buddy had it, but he's just burned out on crotchrockets. He's had a number of them, and just feels like something different

He has a lot of money but not a lot of time, so he made me a really good deal on the bike. He doesn't have time to hassle with selling it, nor the patience to deal with people

So he gave it to me at a price I could sell and make a few bucks on. I'll post more about it later, but real quick,

This guy has a "new toy" that took its place.... got a new shelby mustang last year.... 650 hp, six speed... fucking beautiful........

Its a low mile current model GSXR750. I'm editing this post because I'll list it in the classifieds later. I'm just waiting for the lien release to arrive....

Anyways! Gonna eat, then post more later. Good to be back
 
#982 ·
It's about damn time. Got your message, sorry I haven't called you back yet, been at the hospital working. I'll give you a call tomorrow when I wake up. Take care man!
 
#984 ·
u knew i'd be back at SOME point... as Hunter S Thompson would say

"too crazy to live
too mean to die"

hehehehehehe. Rough paraphrasing of old Hunter there... but you get the point

Hunter S was batshit crazy, and a terrible journalist in the sense of -fair,honest,unbiased reporting - but damn good entertainment to read! And he sure loved motorcycles
 
#986 ·
One other thing, IF you are doing a FULL bike build, and want an awesome trackbike - and by full build i mean full engine teardown with performance parts, aftermarket brakes, suspension, plus the some good bolt ons like full exhaust, rear sets, race ecu and/or piggyback electronics like Bazzaz, plus quickshifter, etc etc etc

IF you can find one, I HIGHLY recommend the Yosh transmissions. The full on, cut from billet "race kit only" parts

It reminds of Ferris Bueller, when he's talking about driving that Ferrari V12 250 GTO.... "if you have the means, i highly recommend you pick one up"

That Yosh box is so damn nice. I've got the "wide ratio / superbike" tranny in mine. The gear ratios are set up way better for racing - first gear is halfway between 1st and 2nd vs a stock K5-K8 box, which puts it into a sweet spot as long as you manage your sprocket gearing correctly and/or have enough engine to grunt from lower RPMs

The shifting is incredible though. I try to be good and smooth on downshifts, and haven't had a problem, but still that thing amazes me. Running up behind a slower rider, at 80 or 90 percent of full lean in 2nd gear, and effortlessly downshifting into 1st gear. A bit of throttle blip, and it just snicks into place, no bobble/wobble/trouble..... and not hardly any thought necessary..... just subconsciously doing it, getting the bike in a lower gear to drive past that slower rider as they exit the corner..... seems like the only thing that changes is the sound of the engine..... :)

I got mine used, paid $750 for it in like-new condition, got it from an ex superbike racer since it wasn't legal in AMA anymore. Worth the 3500 that yosh wanted retail? Thats a bit much...... but finding a used one in excellent shape for money like i paid or somewhat more..... fuck yeah!

If I had it to do over again, I might have paid 1200 for that tranny.....
 
#987 ·
Good pick up on the Yosh gear set.

Real interested in the difference you found with Tim's head. I have a k3/4 one ready to go on my k1 after I get some use out of the one that's on there now.

The PTV clearance issues, were the pistons higher on the valve pockets than the stockers?
 
#988 ·
kwaka, I didn't have a "good" set of stock pistons to compare against in terms of valve pocket depth. I've got a bone stock K8 engine i ran for a bit in Big Foxie's chassis, but i never tore it down. The pistons in Big Foxie's main engine, the one that came with the frame and that I used for the 1070 build, weren't stock.

But, the main problem I had was with cam timing, specifically the exhaust side. The 11i cam is a fairly long duration cam with fairly aggressive lift characteristics, at least from what I saw. IE, the cam seems to have a fairly steep opening/closing ramp... once it starts lifting it picks up pretty quickly

I went with CP pistons, and originally i wanted to spec out a custom set of pistons. I was talked out of that, and regret it. If I had it to do over again, I DEFINITELY would go with a custom spec, unless it was guaranteed to me that the off-the-shelf piston would meet my needs. I wanted, and would have spec'd, a set of much deeper valve pockets. Going .020 or .030 deeper on the valve reliefs would have helped tremendously on the PTV clearance... and like i said thats what i'd do the next time

Overall, I did like the CP pistons, and I do want to note that the set I had was part of the first run of a new design, and I ended up going back to them and making a few comments and having them make some changes. Whether or not they put those changes into production, i'm not sure, but..... the CPs did seem to have some advantages over the JE's and wisecos i've seen / run in the past. Seems like they update their designs much more often, trying to stay on the leading edge instead of just taking the same old basic design and just tweaking it slightly for different applications......

Anyways, i'm not sure if the CP pockets were more or less shallow than the stock ones...... but I do wish they had been deeper!

I had to go to 109 on the exhaust side just to get to the .075 / .080 PTV clearance range, and thats checking every single valve..... and running a block thats decked .003 or so, and a head milled about .002 and a stock headgasket that was cut out to accomodate the 1070 bore size (not a cometic)
 
#989 ·
Kwaka, oh yeah, about Tim's head.

I picked up Big Foxie and ran her as-is for a lil while. Ex AMA Supersport built by KWS. SKY high compression. ran C16 in'er to not worry about detonation, and b/c i dont feel like messing with oxygenated race gas (draining the tank after every weekend + the nastiness of living around oxygenated race gas)

It ran OK. Kinda not impressed with the power really. Made some power in the high RPMs..... but certainly didn't blow me away.

Had problems with getting race fuel in this area, got some bad gas that was dirty, killed my fuel pump and trashed a track weekend, so I said fuck it, and put a stock K8 engine in and ran it on pump gas

Really wasn't impressed with the power of the K8 engine stock. Ran OK as long as I kept it in the powerband, but seemed gearing sensitive. To really make it haul around the track and put down good power i needed to play with the sprockets........ a difference in 500 rpm on a corner exit could make the difference in a strong drive out of the corner or feeling flat. Felt like the stock box had ratios that were wider than the powerband. I was downshifting into 1st and going full throttle after getting the bike straight up after some corner exits because 2nd gear just droned b/c the RPMS were too low

Of course, my opinions are VERY jaded because I came from El Toro, an 1143 stroker that had killer midrange and throttle response like nothing else

Anyways. Big foxie with the 1070, 13.9:1 compression (which runs great on 92 octane pump gas R+m/2), decent sized cams and Radleys head..... is a fucking MONSTER

1st gear, with a 200/55 slick, 17/44 gearing, yosh superbike tranny, and a LOW rev limiter of 13,100 for durability...... does 107mph ACTUAL mph in 1st gear, assuming a reasonable 4% tire slip. it would about 112 mph with a 13,600 rev limiter. Power peak is a bit below 12K though, so why rev it that hard.....

i worried that with the longer cam timing, and tall first gear, that I might be a bit slow out of super slow corners on the track. Like turn 6 at HPT, or the final turn at hastings MPH before the straight. So I stuck a set of long factory pro stacks in it, hoping to add some midrange / throttle response and maybe kill a bit of top end .... ie help rideability

I was WRONG. anything above half throttle in 1st gear is wheelie or wheelspin..... can hit about 2/3 in 2nd gear, and 3rd gear can hit about 90%

I put short stacks in it, the super short OEM stacks, thinking i'd kill some midrange..... and that made it worse. it seemed to make more power everywhere.... damn near unrideable. scary.

bike straight up and down, and spinning the tire at 130, 140..... and not trying to spin it. and thats on a hot sticky race slick

How much did Tim's headwork factor into that? I dont know, i never tested that change by itself

I do know though, that El Toro was an 1143 with bigger cams and mild headwork and overbored throttlebodies (making them 44mm bore) and no secondaries, plus a yosh race ECU

Big Foxie, about the same weight, with a 1070, one step smaller intake cam.... yosh EM Pro..... runs QUITE a bit harder. below 6k, El Toro might have had an advantage, but 6-8K, big foxie starts pulling ahead slightly, 8-10k the difference is bigger, and at 10k Big Foxie goes mental

I'm putting the long FP stacks back IN to DETUNE big foxie and KILL some power, bc it went from scary fast and fun to just flat scary.......... :)

Another thing about tims headwork, the throttle response seems VERY linear, and the dyno reflects that. 1/4 throttle = 1/4 power, 1/2 throttle = 1/2 power, etc

Big power means shit if it isn't controllable..... and with the long FP stacks in, it feels very controllable. Gotta be careful and smooth, but..... i feel like i'm riding it and not hte other way around

And these are on tracks that are 600 sized - in the hands of pros, 600s set laptimes not much different, sometimes better, than the bigger bikes.....

I just dream that one day i get to make it to Road America..... :)
 
#990 · (Edited)
I remember you talking to me about the design of the CP pistons. If I ever do anything to my new one, I will definitely go with CP over the JE's. When I refreshed my 1143, I went ahead and thru in new JE slugs in there. The old JE's I had in there were good, only 7000 miles on them, but I just went ahead and wanted everything fresh. Also, I went ahead and sent my block to Millennium again to have my cylinders for NSC platting.

Now I just have to find some time to ride. I did tell you about the VP C9 fuel I'm running in both my bikes? Its 96 octane unleaded. NO ETHANOL in it either. The ethanol type fuels just don't have a good shelf life. That's why I like the C9.

Glad I spoke to you about the cam timing stuff and not to raise them any. What you told me made good sense about where my peak power was and where the rpm's fall after each shift to keep the bike pulling hard.

Speaking about heads, man I wish I would have sent my head to Tim. This other head I put on there is pretty good. Go it flowed and put 31mm Ti intakes and 25mm ss exhaust valves. My other head I had on it had stock valve sizes but was ported for Velocity. My bike pulled hard everywhere, but this new head is definitely better. Ports bigger-- not hogged out or anything--but still flows well at the lower rpm range and really come alive at 7K on up.
 
#991 ·
JP, all good points ya made there

Powerband means nothing without relating it to gearing*. Got a 2000 rpm wide powerband, but lose 3000 rpms on the shift, that means you gotta pick up 1000 rpm before you get back into the power, meaning you're losing time & ground while the revs pick up

I'd rather have a 3500 rpm wide powerband that had a little less peak HP and more average power through that rev range, so when the RPMs drop on the shift you have more power and keep up a harder drive. What you lose on the peak you can more than gain back on the shift

*The one exception to that is in top speed land racing. As long as the power doesn't fall off so far on the shifts that the bike just can't pull the next gear, you really want as much peak power as you can get, and hopefully you have the sprockets set up so that the peak power hits right as you approach the max speed of the vehicle (which is one of, but not the only, reason that you see closer splits in gear ratios as you go into higher gears..... 1200 or less RPM drops as you get into 5, 6 gear...




Overall, I think the 1K bikes have hit a plateau of performance with current technology. Mainly just seeing small, incremental changes. I can't wait to see what the "next leap forward" will bring. But for a while, i think we'll keep seeing changes in suspension, electronics, seating / rider positioning, etc, that dont necessarily make more power, but make the bikes easier to ride

Right now, for built bikes, i feel like we've kinda tapped out with the HP vs the chassis.... we can make more power than can be used effectively...


We can make more power than can be used, in almost any circumstance. It would be a waste......... but thank god its so much fun! I can talk practicalilty and usability all day long, but at the end of the day the "giggle factor" is hard to ignore! hehehehehe

it ain't right, but somehow, "way too much is just barely enough" sometimes.... :)
 
#992 ·
As a final note, its pretty awesome to go out on the track and put down some laps with an ex AMA superbike racer following you on a stock L1/L2 1K..... and pulls up next to you in the pits afterwards and says "goddamn, what you got in the bike? I was full throttle on the straights and you were getting away from me..... hard"

And you look him dead in the eye and say, "shit, i was just running 2/3 throttle most of the time....." hahahaha :)
 
#993 ·
Good stuff for an early Saturday morning read!

My riding is strictly street. I am old and get out too little... but when I do, I like to speak softly and carry a big stick! No need to do track battle... and not needing to prove anything in a grudge match. ;)

Current bike is modest:

- Yosh cams
- 750 springs
- Yosh Ti full race
- BMC
- No secondaries
- Thin gasket
- FP stacks
- FP timing adv
- TEKA II road-tuned
- other bits

I have been looking at KWS and debating next move... thousands in my '86 Frankengixer build, so something milder here is ok. Maybe even just slip a KWS shelf-motor in if I can get one, and tweak this one over time.

This thing has consumed my time and money up until now...


Floor Hardwood Room Helmet Flooring



It'll be "old-skool" -vs- "new-skool" with the '03... :D


Enjoying your tech-ramble. :)


-crisp
 
#994 ·
^ hell yeah Crisp, love the old school bike. My good friend has 2 of them. 1 stock and the other with a monster motor like yours.
 
#995 ·
Thanks JP! It's amazing how a big old lump with the right bits and some careful sorting can run with the "BIG DOGS" (on the street) but at the snd of the day... the later model bikes are simply "Stupid-Fast" anymore!

...good thing we don't get tested for "sensible smarts" to qualify a Big Gix, either way.

Or... is it? : D


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Engine Auto part Automotive engine part Machine



I'm thinking even just a "puff" on this '03 thou head with what I got and some tuning and I'd be scarried-up enough to let it keep my "fast-fix" sated for awhile...

Who's this "Tim" fellow who gives good head, anyway???

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Mmmmm... "Faaassst-Fixxx..." :D


-crisp
 
#996 ·
Crisp,

Nice on the truly old school GSXR. 86.. thats the first year of the 1100.... nice..... 1255? From what i remember, that seems like about the biggest bore size u can run by boring out the stock block & liners? Or one of the largest practical sizes?

I've heard 1340 and 1371 kicked around as the biggest practical sizes on the air/oil cooled GSXR's..... with either bored out block + aftermarket liners or with aftermarket block + liners (I think there is a size above that with aftermarket block & liners, but it gets into the race only / not streetable realm?).

A certain distance between bores means u can only go so big w/o the distance between bores getting too small to allow a headgasket to live...... of course, there are offset bores where the center of the bore is spaced out away from the center of the connecting rod centerline, but again, thats getting into race only territory.....



On another note, Crisp, I have some reservations about whether u can get an optimum tune with a Teka and removed secondaries. Tekas are nice that they retune the factory ECU, and directly affect it, w/o going through an intermediary / piggyback device (like a powercommander). Reliability and response are very high. But, Tekas lack fine resolution (they can't make changes in fueling at every 250/500 RPM, or at small changes in throttle), and they also lack, from what i understand, the ability to make LARGE changes.

If I understand it correctly, I think +100 or -100% on a teka equals +20 or -20% total fuel change

I did a lot of dyno tuning / testing on El Toro. I remember doing 3 or 4 sessions playing around with cam timing and velocity stacks, and then doing another session where i changed NOTHING from the prior session besides taking out the secondaries. This was with an 1143 motor, aftermarket exhaust, PCIII and stock ECU

When i took out the secondaries, I did like the extra / crisper throttle response. However, there were points in the PC fuel map where I had to add 20 percent or more fueling vs the prior runs..... up to 40 extra fuel in some spots. This effect was most noticeable in the midrange, but was visible in the high RPM range as well. But, overall, it was strongest at part throttle. In the 20 to 50% throttle range, thats where the engine got really "thirsty" and wanted more fuel

Anyways. I'm not saying your bike doesn't run well or that it will blow up, but a Teka might not be giving you the optimum fueling u are looking for, and might leave some power & throttle response on the table. A piggyback system, or a well reflashed ECU might give some good solid gains

It seemed to me, that removing the secondaries did improve throttle response & snap, but really required a lot different fueling

Also, when I started running a Yosh ECU (not the EM PRO, just the race ECU that Yosh used to make to go in place of the factory ECU), it woke the engine up just as much. I'm assuming a lot of that was due to more aggressive ignition curves.....

Anythings. Food for thought.

-IR
 
#997 ·
On a different note, theres a guy I know who used to race Superbike.... did it for a very long time

We got to be friends, and I remember that a while ago he mentioned he would like to write a book about his life..... racing and everything else..... thinks it would be a good book.... but that he didn't have the time/effort/skills to really write that book

I've been thinkin about it, and I might just be the guy to write that book for him. We haven't talked about it in quite a while, but he was open to the idea at the time. I'm going to talk to him again soon, and if he's still interested, I might just pursue that

He's quite a character, and its a good story, and I'd like to think I'm a good writer, so maybe this is the chance to bring all that together.....

dunno how it will work out, but I might just give that a try..... *grins* Keep ya posted
 
#998 ·
IR,

Right on all counts w/big oiler Gix motors, I believe. I am at an "optimal limit" for both big-sleeved bore & reliability in a street build, I think. (I do have an APE big block re-sleeved with machined out case...

On the '03: I hear all you are saying on the secondaries and TEKA limits. I believe all points likely valid concerns. In my case, having had the EMS (Yosh PC) and a PCIII (for this bike, if I need to go back to it) I have done quite a bit of PC tuning and then the TEKA after much fiddling with the "grid" maps, and when working without a dyno (road tuning) for street use, there was just no comparison how much better my TEKA flash was! Now, I'm SURE this reaches a threshold of benefit as soon as you exceed that flashable +- range (20% sounds about right) but up to that point, it's been far and away better than any PC map I've done on a "MILD" motor/modded bike.

One thing I've been told is that the PC map doesn't allow "off-idle" and "initial throttle" ( or one of the two) mapping control, whereas the TEKA does. Since "response" between "off-throttle/on-throttle" even at speed makes a huge difference in how quickly and cleanly the bike "jumps" and comes on (response), this characteristic may be one of the reasons I've really liked the TEKA up to this point. (Haven't reached it's limit yet, probably.)

Anyway, I think you should write that book... you expound well on your thoughts and communicate the principles and considerations well. Good for both the "techies" and less inclined as myself alike! :)

I wonder if a guy could use higher flow injectors with the TEKA and just raise the baseline for increased upper threshold albeit same overall range limit and apply it for an increased air/fuel gain overall? Like starting with several sizes larger mains...


-crisp
 
#1,001 ·
IR,


Anyway, I think you should write that book... you expound well on your thoughts and communicate the principles and considerations well. Good for both the "techies" and less inclined as myself alike! :)

-crisp
Crisp, thanks for the compliments, it means a lot (and thanks to everyone else who has done similar in this thread as well

I'm giving more and more thought to writing that book.
I'm gonna put together some more thoughts and talk to that ex racer some more..... and see how it goes. Actually, I'm also giving a lot of thought to writing a book about motorcycle work / trackday / racing stuff. How to rebuild an engine. How to work on brakes, suspensions, etc etc etc

I know I searched long and wide for info for I really dug deep into this stuff, and I really didn't find much, or find much useful stuff. Seems like everything i read about motorcycle engine rebuilding for example was either 30 years old (and just not applicable anymore), or at a very vague level....

For instance, one of the hardest things for me to teach myself was how to time the cams. its kinda a bitch getting started on it, and theres a lot of little tricks / techniques that either make u or break u. I found little tid bits here and there, but.... nothing comprehensive or close to it. I just had to take the general principles and start applying them and figuring out if I was doing the right thing, or not..... and knowing that last part (how to check your work) is a big deal.

U can take a procedure thats written out in 30 steps, and follow each one precisely, but not end up where you want b/c the instructions weren't written for YOUR exact motorcycle (make,model,year,size), or for YOUR tools (and often times the set up of one individual tool vs another can make a noticeable difference in technique). Because of that, you really need to know how to step back, take a long view, and ask yourself.... does this make any fucking sense????


EDIT - special thanks is due to JP1143, for relentlessly hounding me until i got up off my lazy depressed fat ass and motivating me to get back into this shit. I owe ya buddy.... and one day I AM gonna buy you a beer.... :)
 
#999 ·
Crisp,

I like the way you think :)

Yeah, on the Teka and secondaries, you might be leaving power on the table. MIGHT.

The only way to really tell would be to dyno tune it on a good dyno (preferably a braked one), and do exhaust gas analysis on top of that

I DO like your idea about changing the fuel flow rate - ie, if you can't get more than +20% more fuel out of a teka, then add more overall fuel and tune DOWN the remainder of the curve.

Great idea there, I wish i had thought of it! But, instead of going the fuel injector route, what I would do personally is, play with the fuel pressure regulator

Waaaaayyyyy back somewhere in this thread I think i detailed and explained how i did mine on El Toro, but for the sake of simplicity and argument I'll give a brief overview, in case its useful to you or anyone else (and if you're interested, search back through this thread or some of my other posts to find more detail)

Basically, you just take the fuel pump out, take it apart, pull out the fuel pressure regulator (FPR). None of that is too hard, just watch the orientation of the parts (can be confusing the first time you put one back together in terms of what fits with what)

The FPR is simple, its just a diaphragm and a spring essentially. It connects into where the pump pushes fuel to the engine. When the pressure gets to a certain point (43 psi in this case), the fuel pushes hard enough on the diaphragm to overcome the spring pressure, and the excess fuel flows back into the tank instead of to the engine

So, what you can do is use a couple of sockets and a bench vise or press to crush down the section of the FPR that has the spring in it. More spring compression=more force needed to open diaphragm = more fuel pressure

When I did mine, I set up my air compressor and a hose, and ran it to the FPR. I found that at right about 43 psi on my air compressor regulator, the FPR started bypassing (opening up)

I slowly crushed the spring section down a bit at a time until I got to 57 PSI

Why 57 PSI ? A bit arbitrary, its basically 1/3 more pressure, and was about the minimum I needed to get the extra flow that I wanted

You dont want to go too high on fuel pressure - its harder on fuel pumps, the spray pattern of the fuel can get disturbed and become more like a hose than a spray, making it harder to burn cleanly, etc

Btw, the math on changes in fuel pressure vs flow is this: the flow increases by the square root of the increase in pressure. IE, twice the flow would require 4 times the pressure.

So, at 57 PSI, the math works like this -

57/43 = 1.32

square root of 1.32 = 1.15

1.15 - 1.00 = .15 = 15%

hence, 57 psi vs 43 psi is 32% more pressure, and gives 15% more flow


Words of caution -

1. i dont think Suzuki sells regulators separately, so if you mess yours up, or you dont like the change, you wont be able to get an individual one

However, there are probably more failed pumps out there with regulators that are fine, so i haven't had trouble getting them used in the past.... but as with all small used parts, they may or may not be available all the time

2. I have a sense, but no direct proof, that this solution wont be THIS easy. I sense that altering the fuel pressure may indeed help improve some areas, but it might cause more problems in other areas. Teka's just lack the resolution to do tune for anything but common setups..... making any sort of radical change gets out of their league.... *shrugs* But it may work. Fortunately it wont cost anything to try if you really want to..... but I would have a spare regulator on hand in case you dont like it....



EDIT - as a sidenote, i DO agree with you about the importance of low throttle opening & off-idle response, and the quality / smoothness of the transition from on to off throttle. I think its a point overlooked by many people, and i spend a fair amount of time tweaking to try to improve it. I DO sync my throttlebodies and try to keep them in sync, and typically play with the throttle slack and all that a fair amount, plus tweak the 0 and 2% fuel settings to try to even it out (sometimes being a little rich at zero throttle actually smoothes out throttle response off base / zero throttle.... sometimes electronic injection systems are TOO good at throttle response and make things TOO sharp and crisp.... whereas sometimes having things a bit fuzzy & soft functions better b/c its easier to use)

I run aftermarket throttle assemblies (yoyodyne) and really like them. I like the shorter turning radius / quicker opening b/c i have short arms and i dont have to move as much, but if nothing else i'd still run them because I can extremely fine tune the throttle slack and have it set precisely where I want, and even how it behaves as it begins its pick up from zero throttle

When you ride a 200 rwhp bike on the track, and love hard exits and hard midcorner drives, you either learn to reaaaaalllllllyyyyyy control the throttle and be reeeeaaaaaalllllllyyy smooth, or you end up on your head reeeaaalllyy fast!! :)

Its pretty awesome when guys who used to race AMA superbike ride with you on the track, and tell you "goddamn you drive hard out of those corners!!"
 
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