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Old 10-20-2012, 08:30 PM   #21
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armi View Post
Haven't read the blog yet Joe but I know you know what you're talking about and I think most of the things you said are true, if not all.
Someone said that i couldn't have gone off the edge of the tyre, as the pegs, or exhaust didn't ground out first
That person is

Hell I cant remember the last time my pegs hit.

While the early generation bikes drag pegs earlier, that doesnt mean they wont run out of tire before dragging them in certain situations. In a normal corner entry the front is compressed which will often make the pegs drag earlier. When you crashed you had picked the throttle back up but were running wide and steered tighter. You ran it off the edge and spun it up due to the issues as I stated.
Quote:

Deffo wasn't hanging off enough and yes, was also missing apexes.
The coasting too much makes sense to me...have been reading totw2 with more intent now and keeping the bike where it's more compliant with the suspension and keeping weight distribution 40/60 with throttle control and being earlier on the gas is making sense.
Weight distribution is going to depend on where you are in the corner. Not sure where you are getting that number from
Quote:
The reason i think i lost my bottle, is cos' i didn't know why i came off.......I actually thought it was cos' of sitting too far back in the seat.
At donnington, I resorted to swiveling round the tank.
Have now gone back to sitting back on the seat and things seem to have improved....have yet to try it out on track but staying positive.

I need to be braking earlier, or harder and then getting on the gas earlier, right?
Sitting back in the seat on the gas woudl normally add traction. So losing the rear for sitting back is counter intuitive.

On entry I am back a lot, on brakes
Turn in and mid corner I am only back a few inches to allow myself to slide off straighter
Exit depends. Sometimes I am far forward to let the rear work and to hold the front down. Sometimes I am far back to add traction. Just depends.
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:33 PM   #22
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Thats honestly how it felt...that the bike was tipped over for too long and i couldn't get on the gas early, or didn't feel comfortable getting on the gas.

You guys are good man!!!

So it's turning in later and harder/faster..........I get the taking a wide line bit, I just didn't apply it
yeah, you missed the apex and were running wide, so you felt like you couldnt add throttle. But eventually you did, but you also added a steering correction it looks like, and leaned over farther as you picked up the gas. Ideally you had blown the turn. You needed to get it turned, THEN pick it up and give it gas. You tried to save the turn AND your speed, and you simply cant really. In the future in that situation you need to get the bike to rotate, then extend your body to pick the bike up and pick up the throttle as you do so. Get it rotated FIRST though so that you have the available traction to pick up the gas.
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:35 PM   #23
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

By shutting down the throttle you mean steady throttle, right?

It's the time between shutting down the throttle and opening up again, whilst the bike settles itself, is what I need to work on....it's that uncertain feeling i'm not used to...

Hope that makes sense.

How can you be on the gas but be decelerating, unless you're scrubbing off speed with turning?
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:40 PM   #24
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Originally Posted by Moto_Joe View Post
yeah, you missed the apex and were running wide, so you felt like you couldnt add throttle. But eventually you did, but you also added a steering correction it looks like, and leaned over farther as you picked up the gas. Ideally you had blown the turn. You needed to get it turned, THEN pick it up and give it gas. You tried to save the turn AND your speed, and you simply cant really. In the future in that situation you need to get the bike to rotate, then extend your body to pick the bike up and pick up the throttle as you do so. Get it rotated FIRST though so that you have the available traction to pick up the gas.
At last......I have a grasp of what you're saying.....Cheers Joe

That's EXACTLY what I did!!!
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Old 10-20-2012, 08:49 PM   #25
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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By shutting down the throttle you mean steady throttle, right?

It's the time between shutting down the throttle and opening up again, whilst the bike settles itself, is what I need to work on....it's that uncertain feeling i'm not used to...

Hope that makes sense.

How can you be on the gas but be decelerating, unless you're scrubbing off speed with turning?
If you are wide open, and close the throttle to half throttle, you will decelerate until the bike is going the speed that half throttle in that gear will carry you. So it is still open halfway but you are decelerating.

If your bike is so unsteady that you have to wait for it to settle, you need suspension tuning.

The only time my throttle is completely shut is when I am on the brakes. As SOON as I am off the brakes, I crack the throttle back open and then accelerate off the corner. There are many many turns that the throttle is closed down enough to slow down, but I dont touch the brakes. In those turns the throttle is not SHUT, it is just closed down enough to stop accelerating.

Doing that keeps the chassis in a constant load and much smoother.


Some examples are in this video. I only brake three times on this track. T1, T3, and the turn at the end of the highspeed Esses. The rest is simply decelerating.

FWIW I watch this video and see how shitty my lines are, as I was learning the track. Only like my fifth session around the track, but I got third

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Old 10-20-2012, 10:49 PM   #26
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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As early as possible, to get the bike stable.......waits to be corrected
Yes, hahaha. In several corners in your video it was obvious that you were delayed with getting on the gas (as a few others noticed.)

You want to get on the gas asap in order to transfer the weight off the front tire (as it is only designed to handle 30-40% of the cornering load) and to put the suspension in the correct range. There is a whole chapter in Twist of the Wrist II dedicated to this.

But, there is one other very important part as to WHEN you should be getting on the gas. Yes it is ASAP, but it is as soon as possible ONCE THE BIKE IS TURNED (at the lean angle you want it to be)

What might happen if you try to get on the gas while you are still turning your bike?

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Old 10-20-2012, 10:55 PM   #27
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Originally Posted by Moto_Joe View Post
yeah, you missed the apex and were running wide, so you felt like you couldnt add throttle. But eventually you did, but you also added a steering correction it looks like, and leaned over farther as you picked up the gas. Ideally you had blown the turn. You needed to get it turned, THEN pick it up and give it gas. You tried to save the turn AND your speed, and you simply cant really. In the future in that situation you need to get the bike to rotate, then extend your body to pick the bike up and pick up the throttle as you do so. Get it rotated FIRST though so that you have the available traction to pick up the gas.
Doh, just read this which is exactly what I was getting at in the above question about what might happen when you add throttle while you are still turning your bike.

Moto Joe is right that you added a steering correction and leaned over farther as you picked up the gas, this is exactly what I saw while watching your video and he explains it well.

As Keith Code says in Twist of the Wrist, you want to get on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is turned and roll it on smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn.

So, now you know that you were leaning and adding throttle at the same time, how do you go about fixing it so it doesn't happen again?

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Old 10-26-2012, 02:01 PM   #28
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Originally Posted by Misti Hurst View Post
What might happen if you try to get on the gas while you are still turning your bike?

Misti
Run wide???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti Hurst View Post

As Keith Code says in Twist of the Wrist, you want to get on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is turned and roll it on smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn.

So, now you know that you were leaning and adding throttle at the same time, how do you go about fixing it so it doesn't happen again?

Misti

Get the bike turned before getting on the throttle at the lean angle i'm happy with???

With that said, in my crash senario....I should've waited to get on the gas, till the bike was pointed in the direction I wanted, right?

Joe haven't looked at the blog yet but I will....I promise

Having said the above....surely you accelerate while the bike IS cranked over and quite hard too but guessing at NOT so much lean angle...
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Old 10-26-2012, 10:49 PM   #29
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Run wide???




Get the bike turned before getting on the throttle at the lean angle i'm happy with???

With that said, in my crash senario....I should've waited to get on the gas, till the bike was pointed in the direction I wanted, right?

Joe haven't looked at the blog yet but I will....I promise

Having said the above....surely you accelerate while the bike IS cranked over and quite hard too but guessing at NOT so much lean angle...
Yes, if you try to get on the gas while still turning your bike you would be forced to run wider than you intended and would most likely have to make a steering correction which can cause you to run out of lean angle. Leaning and adding throttle at the same time = bad idea.

With that being said, yes you want to make sure the bike is pointed in the direction you want to go before picking up the gas. Once the bike is cranked over you can get on the gas and roll it on smoothly, evenly and consistently throughout the remainder of the turn. Some will feel more comfortable getting on the gas harder than others

Now to add another aspect to this. How might your RATE of steering affect the above situation? If you come to a corner and turn the bike slowly, kind of lazily lean it over when could you get back on the gas? What if you snapped the bike bike over like the top level racers?

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Old 10-27-2012, 09:05 AM   #30
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

As far as i'm aware and have been reading.....The quicker the bike is cranked over, the later you can turn in and it also means that the bike is cranked over for less time, which in turn means you can get on the throttle earlier.
If your turn in is slower, you have to turn in earlier and the bike is cranked over for longer, which means you're coasting through the bend and later on the throttle, right?

Just a quick thanks for the input.

Thats the balancing act then right, balancing how much throttle you can give while cranked over?
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Old 11-01-2012, 03:55 PM   #31
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Originally Posted by Armi View Post
As far as i'm aware and have been reading.....The quicker the bike is cranked over, the later you can turn in and it also means that the bike is cranked over for less time, which in turn means you can get on the throttle earlier.
If your turn in is slower, you have to turn in earlier and the bike is cranked over for longer, which means you're coasting through the bend and later on the throttle, right?

Just a quick thanks for the input.

Thats the balancing act then right, balancing how much throttle you can give while cranked over?
Yes, turning the bike quicker means that you can turn the bike later, get on the gas earlier and have it leaned over for less time. And there is a lot less risk of you adding lean angle and throttle at the same time.

The idea is that you turn your bike as quick as possible and get on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is at the lean angle you want.

The balancing act with throttle control is not getting on the gas too hard initially and not waiting too long to roll it on. Smoothly, evenly and consistently is best

Now, how do your visual skills play a role in how quickly you can turn the bike? Do you think you can snap a bike over super fast in a corner if you don't have a good reference point for where you want to be at the apex?

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Old 11-01-2012, 03:58 PM   #32
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

The "trust throw". Throw it into a corner and trust it sticks
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Old 11-19-2012, 04:39 PM   #33
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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The "trust throw". Throw it into a corner and trust it sticks
Hahahaha, that is hilarious. Yes, the "trust throw," we see it all the time when we are coaching our students, they just come up to a corner and chuck it in hoping that it will go roughly where they want it to go...and that it sticks

So how do you go from the "trust throw" and having inconsistent lines to a real deliberate quick turn that puts you on exactly the line you want?

Misti
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:22 PM   #34
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

Never heard of that term.....I think i need to work on quick steering via counter steering, looking way past the Apex, before hitting it, as in where i want the bike to go.
Not sure if I answered your question .

Have been watching some on board moto gp footage and did notice, that they were indeed, either on the brakes, or on the gas, no coasting
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Old 11-23-2012, 04:22 PM   #35
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Never heard of that term.....I think i need to work on quick steering via counter steering, looking way past the Apex, before hitting it, as in where i want the bike to go.
Not sure if I answered your question .

Have been watching some on board moto gp footage and did notice, that they were indeed, either on the brakes, or on the gas, no coasting
Here is an idea, what if you were to look at a specific spot (reference point) right at the apex, at the exact spot you wanted the bike to apex, BEFORE you actually turned the bike? Do you think that would help you get the bike turned more quickly, if you knew EXACTLY where you wanted the bike to be before you actually turned it?

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Old 11-23-2012, 05:12 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Misti Hurst View Post
Hahahaha, that is hilarious. Yes, the "trust throw," we see it all the time when we are coaching our students, they just come up to a corner and chuck it in hoping that it will go roughly where they want it to go...and that it sticks

So how do you go from the "trust throw" and having inconsistent lines to a real deliberate quick turn that puts you on exactly the line you want?

Misti
Trial and error .

But no. Seriously. Look where you want to end up before you even get to the end of braking upright. If you feel you can go in hotter next time, then do it. If you feel you can full throttle open sooner after apex next time, then do it. Keep doin it till you crap your pants AND hit your apex's. (All with correct BP and throttle control of course) honestly IMO it's all personal feel for the track, the bike, and your skills. Some people can recognize and correct mistakes such as breaking references, proper lines, etc. much more quickly than others.


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Old 11-23-2012, 06:25 PM   #37
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

I think when I came off.......I was concentrating on where I wanted to go so much, that I wasn't aware of where I actually was on track, if that makes sense.

Misty, in answer to the above question....yes!
It's a quick glance at the reference spot, where you want to apex, before getting there and then looking ahead where you want to end up, right?

One of my fears I think, is how much throttle you can give while cranked over........at Silverstone , where I came off, before I actually did, I was very suprised at how much I could!
Confidence in the tyres was good also(racetecs).
At donnington, I just didn't commit enough, or was probably too scared of coming off!

Thanks immensely, for all the input guys

Maybe I just need to grow some balls but knowing where I went wrong has help....though I won't know for sure till the summer
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Old 11-27-2012, 04:53 PM   #38
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

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Trial and error .

But no. Seriously. Look where you want to end up before you even get to the end of braking upright. If you feel you can go in hotter next time, then do it. If you feel you can full throttle open sooner after apex next time, then do it. Keep doin it till you crap your pants AND hit your apex's. (All with correct BP and throttle control of course) honestly IMO it's all personal feel for the track, the bike, and your skills. Some people can recognize and correct mistakes such as breaking references, proper lines, etc. much more quickly than others.


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K yes, look where you want to go BEFORE you turn the bike. That is the key right there. Most riders tend to look and turn the bike at the same time but if you look to where you want to go BEFORE you turn then you give yourself extra time and information about the corner. You can pick your mid turn RP and you have a much better chance of ending up there than if you just look and turn (and guess) at the same time

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I think when I came off.......I was concentrating on where I wanted to go so much, that I wasn't aware of where I actually was on track, if that makes sense.

Misty, in answer to the above question....yes!
It's a quick glance at the reference spot, where you want to apex, before getting there and then looking ahead where you want to end up, right?

One of my fears I think, is how much throttle you can give while cranked over........at Silverstone , where I came off, before I actually did, I was very suprised at how much I could!
Confidence in the tyres was good also(racetecs).
At donnington, I just didn't commit enough, or was probably too scared of coming off!

Thanks immensely, for all the input guys

Maybe I just need to grow some balls but knowing where I went wrong has help....though I won't know for sure till the summer
Ok, I get you. Yes, I think you can focus too much on where you are on track at the moment that you kind of target fixate and lose track of where you want to go. It's a fine line really, you want to look at your reference point until you know you are actually going to get there and then immediately look to the next spot. You don't want to look too far ahead and you don't want to look too close.

you say that one of your fears is how much throttle you can give it while cranked over. I wonder if this is tied to your visual skills. Say you were only looking about 20 feet in front of you as you were exiting a corner, how confident would you be with rolling hard on the gas? What if you were looking 40 feet in front?

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Old 11-27-2012, 09:49 PM   #39
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Re: How to get your confidence back???

Kind of pitching in late here it seems.
Anyhow.

I've had 2 lowsides with my 01 zx6r within the over 25 000mi in the 2 seasons I had with it so far. One lowside was a month after I traded it in for my year old cbr125. Second lowside this summer in July to avoid hitting the car in front of me.

Besides how I came to my crashes (always in full gear), I got back up on my bike to ride it back home after dusting off, having people help me getting it out of the ditch or waiting for cops/ambulance to check up on me. I didn't get scared the 2nd time I just got a hint not to go fast at all in that blind corner with a merging lane at the end...not that I wasn't told so already beginning of the season.

For me to lose fear I rode with someone who knew the corners for years and was able to adjust and stay on my riding level.
At that point and with some trust in each other, I started following as close as 10ft and focus on his rear tire only !!!

That way I got just the feeling of what going faster means. Did that a few times within a session and whenever I was ready to go into the corner by myself faster and braking later, I knew that this kind of feeling doesn't mean I'm about to crash and I can keep concentrating on exiting the turn or what the other rider is doing in front of me.

I've scraped pegs on my bike a few times too often and sometimes had to back off the throttle slightly and coast through the turn so I wouldn't need to lean any further/lower (crucial).

My medicine was just a faster rider around my level that I could follow close enough to gain confidence in what still feels stable.
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:49 PM   #40
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You focused on his back tire only?


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