How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR : Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums: Gixxer.com
» Insurance
» Suzuki GSX-R Prices
» Sponsors
Go Back   Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com > Gixxer Forums > SRADs (97-00 600 and 96-99 750)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-26-2012, 09:30 PM   #1
ccmhunt
Superbike Champ
 
ccmhunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawton, Ok
Motorcycle: 96 GSXR750 (parts), ZX7/9RR F-USA AMA SBK, 96 ZX7RR STREET, 96 WSBK ECKL ZX7RR
Posts: 10,858
How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

FIRST, there will be several posts as, i write, please DON'T hesitate comment or post until I say I am done.
This is not overly complicated, but it takes some intellect, and basically mechanical competency. If you can adjust and shim your valves, and have access to the tools necessary to do this, it is reasonable that you can successfully do this.
It is easiest done with the motor removed from the frame, but I have most often done it with it installed in rolling frame.
I use a Hot cams kit, but all you need is something to thread into the spark plug hole to find tdc, a degree wheel, and a dial indicator with some versatility.
The cams I was degreeing were ones that I had bought, never used, sold to Sleeper750, and had sent back to me my WILLIAMHBONNEY. They are stock cams with APE slotted cam sprockets and press on carriers installed. ***It is important to note that if you are installing cams with non-stock profiles, you should follow the mfg install notes, and likely not install by lobe center timing.
So...... Assuming that you have uncovered your motor, lets take the valve cover off, and remove the timing plug and the small round cover over the right hand side of the crankshaft so we can turn the motor with a 14mm socket.
Let's take the spark plugs out so that we don't have any compression to overcome.
Then, we turn the motor in the forward direction until the timing mark lines up, and the marks on the cams indicate that 1 and 4 are at tdc.


#3 should be pointing up, reasonably vertically on the intake cam, and #2 should be doing the same on the exhaust cam. There should be 15 pins on the cam chain including the ones on the arrows, between the arrows.
****Refer to these criteria upon reinstall on cams for timing.
At this point I placed my replacement cams over the stock cams to verify that the adapters had been pressed on in appropriate locations and that the sprockets were timed accordingly.
I then did a quick valve lash check, as this motor was the subject of a exhausting top end rebuild a year or two ago, and the valves were bench shimmed after the head came back from APE with a full radius valve job, and considerable seat material cut away. The motor was then broken in on the track in expert level sessions for 2.25 track days until the big crash. Close inspection revealed four valves that would need reshimming, which I did while the cams were being swapped.
__________________
[QUOTE=senator8]Haha! You're more than 1%. My bike ran perfectly all year. All I did was oil changes and thumbed the starter. While my competitors had bikes and carbs in pieces at the track I was enjoying a coffee and saying "thanks Chris"
ccmhunt is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-26-2012, 09:53 PM   #2
ccmhunt
Superbike Champ
 
ccmhunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawton, Ok
Motorcycle: 96 GSXR750 (parts), ZX7/9RR F-USA AMA SBK, 96 ZX7RR STREET, 96 WSBK ECKL ZX7RR
Posts: 10,858
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

So, remove cam chain tensioner (in this case and APE manual one.. (MCCT))
No reason to back off tensioner bolt in this case, just back out two screws holding tensioner in place and slide it back.

Now remove the top cam chain guide.
Remove the oil tube connecting the two cam towers.
Following the numbered sequence stamped on the cam towers, slowly loosen the cam tower bolts in stages, a couple of turns at a time, to slowly let it rise in stages. Do the same with both caps.
Remove the caps, make sure you don't loose the two guide pins in the each cap.
Lift each cam out, keeping tension on the cam chain, and make sure you don't loose the c-rings that sit in the bottom bearing race.
Zip tie or use one of APOKS little bungee to tie off cam chain to keep it from looping under crank gear.
***Here is where I swapped shims under buckets

You would then press off the stock cam sprockets and press on the carriers, mine were already installed.
Now, coat all the cam journals with assembly lube

Reinstall cams, making sure they locked into c-rings, set your timing as per the first post, zip tie cam chain to cam sprockets and tighten down cam towers according to numbered sequence in stages, to 88 in lbs. Recheck timing marks, install cam chain tensioner, cut zip ties, and install upper guide. Install oil passage after we are done degreeing cams, as it gets in the way.
__________________
[QUOTE=senator8]Haha! You're more than 1%. My bike ran perfectly all year. All I did was oil changes and thumbed the starter. While my competitors had bikes and carbs in pieces at the track I was enjoying a coffee and saying "thanks Chris"
ccmhunt is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2012, 10:14 PM   #3
ccmhunt
Superbike Champ
 
ccmhunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawton, Ok
Motorcycle: 96 GSXR750 (parts), ZX7/9RR F-USA AMA SBK, 96 ZX7RR STREET, 96 WSBK ECKL ZX7RR
Posts: 10,858
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

OK, ready to degree? I set up my degree wheel on the left side of the motor, attaching it to the bolt holding the stator rotor on the crankshaft with a small spacer underneath. Usually you attach it to the LH side, but it's a little awkward on a srad.

Next thing is to fabricate a pointer, out of wire, and attach it to the motor.
Since you have it timed at tdc for 1 and 4,according to the timing marks, set your pointer and wheel to TDC.
We are going to find true TDC now, using positive stop method :
Rotate your motor forward 90*

Insert stop into #4 spark plug hole

Now rotate motor backward until piston reaches stop, *record number
Rotate motor forward until it touches stop again, *record number
Now, add both numbers together, divide by two, and move your pointer to that number.
In my case 49+46=95/2=47.5
TDC is now in the middle, verify by rotating motor both directions and it should stop on the same #, in my case 47.5
__________________
[QUOTE=senator8]Haha! You're more than 1%. My bike ran perfectly all year. All I did was oil changes and thumbed the starter. While my competitors had bikes and carbs in pieces at the track I was enjoying a coffee and saying "thanks Chris"
ccmhunt is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2012, 10:51 PM   #4
ccmhunt
Superbike Champ
 
ccmhunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawton, Ok
Motorcycle: 96 GSXR750 (parts), ZX7/9RR F-USA AMA SBK, 96 ZX7RR STREET, 96 WSBK ECKL ZX7RR
Posts: 10,858
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Now, set up your dial indicator, usually on a magnetic base, so you need to fabricate a piece of steel that you can bolt to the towers.
Let me digress a little, regarding numbers. We are going to degree by lobe center method. Lobe center is measurement taken at. 0050 lift opening and closing. I picked my numbers off of past experience, but it also agrees with what is published on Factory Pro website. Not not arbitrarily choose degree numbers, you may be disappointed. You may lunch a motor. PTV clearance is critical.
Also, I measured stock lobe centers, before I took anything apart, and came up with 113* intake, and 107.5 exhaust. My goal is to reach 105 intake and 102 exhaust.
I placed my plate on the towers and bolted it in place, and set up dial indicator, making a longer tip out of a heavy guage coat hanger. It is imperative that you set it up with the dial indicator in line with the valve stem to minimize it walking around during bucket depression.
When you think you have it set up, zero out your dial face, rotate the motor and few times and make sure you dial always returns to zero..... Odds are it won't without a few adjustments.


Once you have it set up, SLOWLY turn motor forward until dial begins to move, stop on... 0050, and record number on degree wheel.
In this case 20

Now keep rotating it slowly as it opens fully, then stop it on the same. 0050 as it cases and record the number... In this case 50.
Now for the math:
Opening BTDC+closing ATDC +180/divided by 2 minus the smaller number = LC
SO..... 20+50+180/2=125
125-20=105LC
If this isn't what you want, loosen one cam bolt, rotate crank, loosen the other bolt, and turn
crank a little, then tighten one bolt.
Remeasure.
On intake cams, for smaller lobe centers, roll motor backward. Roll motor forward for larger LC.
It took me three tries to hit 105.
When you hit it, roll motor around to loose cam sprocket bolt, remove it, and reinstall with blue loctite, roll motor forward to other bolt, do the same.
__________________
[QUOTE=senator8]Haha! You're more than 1%. My bike ran perfectly all year. All I did was oil changes and thumbed the starter. While my competitors had bikes and carbs in pieces at the track I was enjoying a coffee and saying "thanks Chris"
ccmhunt is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-26-2012, 11:10 PM   #5
ccmhunt
Superbike Champ
 
ccmhunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawton, Ok
Motorcycle: 96 GSXR750 (parts), ZX7/9RR F-USA AMA SBK, 96 ZX7RR STREET, 96 WSBK ECKL ZX7RR
Posts: 10,858
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Move your setup to the exhaust cam, repeat the process
Opening BBDC+ CLOSING ATDC+180/2-Smaller number
Here I went from 97 to 102 in three steps, getting
16+40+180/2=118
118-16=102LC
For smaller lobe centers on exhaust cams rotate motor forward, for larger lobe centers roll motor backward (opposite of intake cam)
Add your two lobe centers together gives you lobe center separation. Smaller numbers generally give you more midrange, larger give you more top end.
Now check PTV clearance
Check for 1 mm clearance at 15 degrees BTDC for exhaust cams and 15 degrees ATDC intake cams.
Rotate degree wheel to mark

Depress bucket with screwdriver and watch dial guage, looking for at minimum 1mm movement available.

Now, button everything up, double check all your timing, bolts, torque...... Done.
I could have forgot something, let me know...
Done.
__________________
[QUOTE=senator8]Haha! You're more than 1%. My bike ran perfectly all year. All I did was oil changes and thumbed the starter. While my competitors had bikes and carbs in pieces at the track I was enjoying a coffee and saying "thanks Chris"
ccmhunt is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 12:09 AM   #6
williamhbonney
Rookie
 
williamhbonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: albany ny
Motorcycle: 97 gsxr 750
Posts: 985
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

That's an awesome job! I'm going to have to read through 10 more times to wrap my head around it. Really appreciate your effort and expertise!
williamhbonney is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 12:10 AM   #7
gixerhp
Rookie
 
gixerhp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: nashua nh
Motorcycle: Hayabusa
Posts: 623
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

One thing to remember, if there is a doubt, rotate the motor again and check your numbers!

Great write up!
gixerhp is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 01:25 AM   #8
Zlow28
16.8@186.1
 
Zlow28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: lower mexifornia
Motorcycle: 2006 GSXR 600
Posts: 1,911
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Thanks CCMhunt! Ill have to read it again with time
Zlow28 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 04:30 AM   #9
The ring-in
Squid
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

nice write up.

you have not accounted for the valve lash in your measurements.

the maths you use will indeed arrive at the correct timing

but if it is 50thou + 4 thou lash then the duration figures are not comparable with industry standards

Industry standards measure duration at 50thou lift with zero lash.

this means that one camshaft can be reasonably compared with another.

I also notice the dial indicator shaft alignment with the cam bucket.

I understand the difficulty in locating this on the bucket but idealy this should be at right angles to the surface and in line with its travel. this will give the most accurate representation of the timing.














another method not commonly mentioned is to have your camshafts measured on an "adcole" or more commonly on a "cam-pro" or "cam doctor".

the software accompnying these machines allows very accurate analysis of the camlobe profiles and can give "lift at degree" figures.

This process allows the user to set the engine at TDC and rotate the cam until the desired lift is achieved. this will give the simplest method of arriving at the desired lobe centre timing.

Australian residents can make use of the services of "surecam" ( surecam.com.au ) who can not only measure the cams but supply extensive information about the actual lobe profile including periods of instability it could encounter during its rev range.

surecam can also custom design lobes to suit specific applications and advise on suitable timings for a given lobe measured by them.
The ring-in is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 04:40 AM   #10
The ring-in
Squid
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

the timings you suggest of 102 / 105 have in my experience severely inhibited the revving of small displacement engines. with engines peaking below 7,00 rpm and being reluctant to rev freely any higher.

but this is outside the scope of this thread.

readers should not jump on the bandwagon and use figures suggested by others without fully understanding what the person has set out to achieve in setting those figures.

every person interested in gaining the best from their engines should measure the cam timing.

if possible it should be set to the manufacturers intended specs and the results evaluated before moving to another timing.

moving the inlet has a different effect to moving the exhaust and the tuner should move one at a time in measured increments and the results recorded. eventually arriving at a set of figures which offer the best results for the riders application.

opening the exhaust timing figures to values around 120 degrees will for example make the engine very revvy but may make it a dog to ride at low rpm.

there is no magic figures, its relative to the application . the rod stroke ratio and the flow capacity of the head,
The ring-in is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 08:07 AM   #11
williamhbonney
Rookie
 
williamhbonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: albany ny
Motorcycle: 97 gsxr 750
Posts: 985
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

^ so what are you saying? Ccms work/methods are wrong? This could get interesting.
williamhbonney is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 11:50 AM   #12
cobramadness
Parts Junkie
 
cobramadness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: NW GA
Motorcycle: 07 GSXR 1000
Posts: 3,572
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Looks complicating and tedious. I guess that's why I don't do any motor work. My hat is off to the people that are able to do this. Nice write up Chris.
cobramadness is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 01:24 PM   #13
Sleeper_750
Rookie
 
Sleeper_750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Austin, Texas
Motorcycle: 1999 750
Posts: 1,121
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

The ring-in - nice first posting (trolololoololing?) If not let ccm finish here, he's writing it up for us simple folk who do not need to yet understand valve lash and the intricate details. Not saying you are wrong or anything, just speaking from my perspective having never seen a how to degree cams, baby steps ya know?
Sleeper_750 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 09:36 PM   #14
williamhbonney
Rookie
 
williamhbonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: albany ny
Motorcycle: 97 gsxr 750
Posts: 985
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Ccm, can you talk about the numbers a bit as far as how they affect power through the rpm range?
williamhbonney is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 11:19 PM   #15
Maj750
Rookie
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 927
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Couple of points here
Ringin
Lash does not matter, you will end up with a larger or smaller total number but the lobe centre is consistant with these basically symetrical cams ,try the math .

ccm when i change the timing from measured to intended say from your example of 20+50+180=250/2=125
125-20=105
ok from here its easy to
A :have pre loosened the cam bolt that ends up out of reach at tdc
B : say you want 102, (125-102=23, and vise versa, 125-23=102)
C :turn the motor till the cam is at 23, loosen the top cam bolt and turn the motor to tdc, (its only 3 deg away and go slightly beyond then turn it back ) watching to see that the cam does not move , then lock up the cam bolt , check your figures, again, but you will be within 1/2 a degree if you did it right

Another thing i do is use .030 not .050, as small cams may go beyond tdc to get to .050 lift, making the small number a negative,.... confusing,

I'm not picking holes in CCM's writeup , its great and simply explains for the beginner
Maj750 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-27-2012, 11:29 PM   #16
ccmhunt
Superbike Champ
 
ccmhunt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Lawton, Ok
Motorcycle: 96 GSXR750 (parts), ZX7/9RR F-USA AMA SBK, 96 ZX7RR STREET, 96 WSBK ECKL ZX7RR
Posts: 10,858
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Maj750, yes... I also believe Lash doesn't matter.
Your Way works too, thanks for pointing it out. I sometimes do that, but wanted to keep it simple, as anticipating the out of reach bolt and the alternative adj method only seemed to complicate things for the beginner, and that is who the write up is for, after all. I appreciate your observations.
ccmhunt is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2012, 12:14 PM   #17
Armi
Lifetime Premium
 
Armi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: london,uk
Motorcycle: gsxr 750 srad with a few mods thanks to the members on this site.See signature.
Posts: 9,473
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

I promise to have a proper read on my day off.can tell you now though, this is beyond me..you lost me at attaching a pointer to the motor

I need to do valve clearances first, before i even think about doing this.

One curious question though.....how do you know when need to degree your cams?
Armi is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2012, 12:29 PM   #18
LandRokkit
Squidward Q. Tentacles, the Flaming Rainbow Spunk Catcher
 
LandRokkit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: EL
Motorcycle: 2011 ZX-10R
Posts: 556
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

hmm we should possibly make this an every mans worst nightmare pussy....



i mean we should make this a sticky? if it seems it would be super helpful
LandRokkit is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2012, 12:34 PM   #19
600k2
Lifetime Premium
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: South NJ
Motorcycle: 600k2
Posts: 21,438
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armi View Post
I promise to have a proper read on my day off.can tell you now though, this is beyond me..you lost me at attaching a pointer to the motor
Find TDC. Get a wire hanger and stretch it out. Find a bolt hole to use to hold it down, and loop the hanger around the bolt, screw it down against the engine. Bend and point the hanger down in front of the degree wheel.

look here

600k2 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-28-2012, 07:48 PM   #20
williamhbonney
Rookie
 
williamhbonney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: albany ny
Motorcycle: 97 gsxr 750
Posts: 985
Re: How to degree cams, 96 750 GSXR

Quote:
Originally Posted by williamhbonney View Post
Ccm, can you talk about the numbers a bit as far as how they affect power through the rpm range?
Bueller?...Bueller?.. Anyone?
williamhbonney is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.2

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008 2013 Gixxer.com
Motorcycle News, Videos and Reviews
Honda Grom Forum Harley Davidson Forum Honda 600RR Kawasaki Forum Yamaha R6 Forum Yamaha FZ-09 Forum
1199 Panigale Forum Roadglide Forum Honda CBR1000 Forum Vulcan Forum Yamaha R1 Forum Yamaha R3 Forum
Ducati Monster Forum Harley Forums Honda CBR250R Forum ZX10R Forum Star Raider Forum Yamaha Viking Forum
Suzuki GSXR Forum V-Rod Forums Honda Shadow Forum Kawasaki Motorcycle Forum Star Warrior Forum KTM Duke 390 Forum
SV650 Forum BMW S1000RR Forum Honda Fury Forum Kawasaki Versys Forum Drag Racing Forum Ducati 899 Panigale Forum
Suzuki V-Strom BMW K1600 Triumph Forum Victory Forums Sportbikes BMW NineT Forum
Volusia Forum BMW F800 Forum Triumph 675 Forum MV Agusta Forum HD Street Forum Suzuki GW250 Forum
Yamaha Motorcycles Victory Gunner Forum Honda Vultus Forum HD LiveWire Forum Ninja H2 Forum Ducati Scrambler Forum