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Old 09-30-2012, 11:25 PM   #21
NAJ2627
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

just found out i've a cracked oil sump!

had it TIG-welded yesterday.

what else can go wrong eh?
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Old 10-31-2012, 03:54 AM   #22
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

can't find my 750j starter motor anywhere in the parts bin! so i had my 1100m starter motor slightly modified & shaved to fit the puny hole in the 750's case.

and that is a slightly modified ( shortened, narrowed ) SRAD tail. maybe using that, maybe not
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Old 11-01-2012, 09:22 AM   #23
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

In post #5 of this thread,
you mention possibly using an 1127 bottom case half with a slingshot 750 top case half.

Did you end up doing this?
You know cases are line honed after being factory assembled,
and if you mismatch a set you would have to re-line hone them together, right?
(If the cases were mismatched enough, this might not even be possible)

You didn't mention it again, so you are probably using the matched 750 set now,
but I was just wondering.

Good build by the way

There are other threads about using the 6speed behind an 1100.
Most that have tried it do not recommend it.

Either way, good luck!
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Old 11-03-2012, 07:39 PM   #24
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnjim View Post
In post #5 of this thread,
you mention possibly using an 1127 bottom case half with a slingshot 750 top case half.

Did you end up doing this?
You know cases are line honed after being factory assembled,
and if you mismatch a set you would have to re-line hone them together, right?
(If the cases were mismatched enough, this might not even be possible)

You didn't mention it again, so you are probably using the matched 750 set now,but I was just wondering
no i didn't know that line hone thingy. everything just fits so well, i guess it'll work? but NOW i'm worried!

so what should i look out for? i haven't sort out the electrics yet, but using a wrench, the crankshaft convincingly rotates well enough. no grinding sound?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnjim View Post
Good build by the way

There are other threads about using the 6speed behind an 1100.
Most that have tried it do not recommend it.
just tryin' out something a bit different.
i was comparing between them 5 & 6 speed boxes prior to the build and i assume they wouldn't break THAT easy. i did a search on that part too, and regardless of the previous posts, i decided to do a write up on my own to prove something.

i'm not doing any form of racing, maybe a trackday or two in the future, but i was building the bike for fun.i rarely have the time to ride, tho.

i still have the 5 speed box as spare if anything goes wrong.
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Old 11-03-2012, 08:55 PM   #25
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

I like! I too have an all the wrong parts motor though mine is a bastard gsx600f and gsx-r750 blend. In my i used a 90' clutch, 6 springs, only because i didn't have a clutch for the 4 spring basket and i got it for free .99. You might be able to use a GS clutch basket I'll have to look through my misc stuff and see if the 1100 basket i have will fit on one of the many 88- trans shafts i have. it's kinda funny how you can cross parts over many years of GS-GSX-GSXR some directly some you kinda have to force err make work.

I will say that i do know a guy that threw 2nd out the back of his short stroke but he also like to yank wheelies on the highway.

here is my mixed bag
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Old 11-03-2012, 09:31 PM   #26
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ2627 View Post
no i didn't know that line hone thingy. everything just fits so well, i guess it'll work? but NOW i'm worried!

so what should i look out for? i haven't sort out the electrics yet, but using a wrench, the crankshaft convincingly rotates well enough. no grinding sound
My understanding is the factory case halves were semi-finished, then mated up in pairs for final line honing.


Each case half would then only be *perfect* with the other half it was married to during final honing.

What would I look for?
Before assembly you could have miked the cases and looked for any kind of a lip where the two cases mate up.
You also could have measured the size of the opening top to bottom compared to side to side to see if the different case halves resulted in any egg shaped holes.

I'm sure that any difference would be extremely slight,
and might not even noticeable anywhere outside a machine shop.

All that said,
even if they look really close,
I think line honing the cases together,
in hopes of re-matching them would be the safest way.

If no one here pipes in with a more solid answer,
you could ask a local bike shop, or motorcycle engine builder for their opinion.

Good luck!
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:01 PM   #27
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

googled and found this

"LINE HONING is a term to describe the following: Shaving the main caps of the block so that you effectively allow room to "line Bore" another hole in the main journals to re-align them and make them round and straight. So typically, they might shave .002 off the main caps, and then torque down the caps to the block, and then bore the hole of the mains straight and to the spec size they want.

The reasons that are given to such a practice is obvious. The current main alignment is out of spec, or one or more of the holes is out of round. The attempt to fix this is done by a boring bar. These are expensive apparatus's and requires extensive, professional operators to get it right."

"professional operators" :P

i have none of that sort of equipment over here.
i've to risk it this time, since all holes & studs perfectly lined up.
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Originally Posted by javadog
"If you want to f*** something up, just for the sake of doing something pointless, buy a 'Busa and have at it"
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welcome to where the sun shines all year round..

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Old 11-03-2012, 11:21 PM   #28
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

the letters on the back of the cases state the I.D. journal size for example i have 2 sets of 88 759 cases that are AAA AAB and another is ABB AAA. the crank will also have letter letting you know how big the O.D. of the crank, only one i have out is a katana 600, it's CBB BBB (the mark is next to rod #1). there is the spec on page 75-80 (3-42 thru 3-47) of the 88-91 750 manual that then lets you know what bearings you would need but that is for the 750 you should also look at page 73-76 (3-40 thru 3-43) of the 88-92 1100 manual to see if and how the tolerances might fit together.

to loose and you can spin a bearing which would ruin the cases and to tight can crack the cases or damage the crank journal.

there is also the thrust bearing that hasn't been mentioned that would also need to be checked to make sure that it's with in tolerance

plasti-gauge is your friend, you may want to split the cases and make sure that your with in the tolerances it kinda sucks but it's better to waste a bit of time taking it apart now and be sure than to have to pull it out and find that stuff is screwed.

I'm no Uber-Tech, more of a shade tree parts replacer though my tech friend calls me for oil cooled info, i have read most of the oil cooled manuals front to back many times and went through all this with my frankenmotor. i have had most of them in hard copy for about 18 years. i thought i had read some where that there is a issue with the larger sleeves and clearance in the cases but i'm not 100% on that one. i do remember some guy talking about doing something like this at the katana forum. though i think he was trying to just put a 750 trans in 1100 cases
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Old 11-03-2012, 11:49 PM   #29
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latendresse76 View Post
the letters on the back of the cases state the I.D. journal size for example i have 2 sets of 88 759 cases that are AAA AAB and another is ABB AAA. the crank will also have letter letting you know how big the O.D. of the crank, only one i have out is a katana 600, it's CBB BBB (the mark is next to rod #1). there is the spec on page 75-80 (3-42 thru 3-47) of the 88-91 750 manual that then lets you know what bearings you would need but that is for the 750 you should also look at page 73-76 (3-40 thru 3-43) of the 88-92 1100 manual to see if and how the tolerances might fit together.

to loose and you can spin a bearing which would ruin the cases and to tight can crack the cases or damage the crank journal.

there is also the thrust bearing that hasn't been mentioned that would also need to be checked to make sure that it's with in tolerance

plasti-gauge is your friend, you may want to split the cases and make sure that your with in the tolerances it kinda sucks but it's better to waste a bit of time taking it apart now and be sure than to have to pull it out and find that stuff is screwed.

I'm no Uber-Tech, more of a shade tree parts replacer though my tech friend calls me for oil cooled info, i have read most of the oil cooled manuals front to back many times and went through all this with my frankenmotor. i have had most of them in hard copy for about 18 years. i thought i had read some where that there is a issue with the larger sleeves and clearance in the cases but i'm not 100% on that one. i do remember some guy talking about doing something like this at the katana forum. though i think he was trying to just put a 750 trans in 1100 cases
wow daiyum all that point to note for.

here i am just tryin to put pieces of my motor back together. last night i thought well ok everything lined up perfectly (i did some measurement n stuff like that) so i'ma go ahead and gonna try to crank her up next week, and now i think i've to split her up again and do some more checking!
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Old 06-12-2013, 03:20 AM   #30
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

updates updates!

everything bolted up, test crank with starter = no crank (!)
the starter motor turns fine when unbolted.

possible culprits:

-starter clutch gone bad?

-that 11.0:1 compression too much for the starter?

-new shims, valve clearance too tight?

gotta split the motor up again, either way. duhh!
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Old 06-12-2013, 05:38 PM   #31
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

did you see if your motor will turn by hand? as i had a similar problem with a 250 i did it, turned out to be the starter lazy /weak. it would turn out like it should but not turn when i put it back in. did you check to make sure the starter is not binding when in place as you said you had to modified the starter motor
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:57 PM   #32
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davetexas2 View Post
did you see if your motor will turn by hand? as i had a similar problem with a 250 i did it, turned out to be the starter lazy /weak. it would turn out like it should but not turn when i put it back in. did you check to make sure the starter is not binding when in place as you said you had to modified the starter motor

turn by hand you mean using a wrench, right?

scuse me but slept late last nite. everything's kinda groggy

and how do you know when a starter gone bad/weak?
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:25 PM   #33
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ2627 View Post
turn by hand you mean using a wrench, right?

scuse me but slept late last nite. everything's kinda groggy

and how do you know when a starter gone bad/weak?
I'd pull the plugs, remove the cover from the ignition rotoe/pickup and turn with a wrench. If it turns fine by hand, I would suspect that it's the starter.

One last thing is to make sure that you haven't hydrolocked a cylinder. If you have a bad carb and/or bad petcock, it can, in rare instances fill the cylinder with gas and prevent the engine from turning over. I doubt that it's the problem but you may as well check that too. Maybe pull the plugs and see if the engine will crank over with the starter.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:49 PM   #34
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awasson View Post
I'd pull the plugs, remove the cover from the ignition rotoe/pickup and turn with a wrench. If it turns fine by hand, I would suspect that it's the starter.
right, it can be turned using a wrench that way. a bit of effort required but not too tight. the motor is still on the bench. attached the starter & connecting it with a good battery to see whether it turns or not.

am still not satisfied with this.
i spent a lot of time checking n lookin up swap infos here n there to make sure it works! damn!

-did i mentioned the newly done big bore & new pistons? (tight stuff,might be hard to turn)

-how do i know if my starter clutch is broken?

-any way to test the starter to know whether it still ok or not?

doin some more test tonite
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:27 PM   #35
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Will it crank with the starter if the plugs are out?
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Old 06-13-2013, 06:48 AM   #36
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

just for the record:

my stock 1127 bores are +3mm enlarged
piston to wall clearence is is about 0.500" up measured from the bottom of skirt.

the spec sheet says "Min. Gap Per Inch of Bore" for
"High-Perf. Street-Strip" use. sheet also says "Clearances listed below are minimum. Some applications such as supercharged, turbo, nitrous and endurance applications may require additional clearance (.001-. 003")"

so 81mm piston = 3.188"

spec sheet says for bore range from 2.500" to 3.625" min piston to wall clearance required
is between 0.0030 to 0.0036.

these pistons are forged with lower silicon content, so they are less brittle, but they expand more.
it says "Your pistons are manufactured from 2618 non-silicon aluminum alloy".

the piston to wall gap is looking kinda big now tho! imo they're gonna rattle like a diesel lol!
even the sheet says "Some applications such as supercharged, turbo, nitrous and endurance applications may require
additional clearance (.001-. 003")."
how about that!

some pointers for end gap:
"End Gap
End gap is the clearance between the two ends of a piston ring as it is installed in a cylinder (fig. 7). Most high performance and racing engine builders purchase piston rings slightly oversized in order to file fit them to very precise end gaps. Testing has shown measurable increases in horsepower and decreases in blow-by as a result of properly fitting the ring end gap to the operating conditions. Factors such as supercharging, turbocharging, nitrous oxide, endurance racing and different fuels determine proper ring end gap. Proper ring end gap can be more than double from one engine to the next depending upon the above factors.


At operating temperature, the top ring end gap should be as small as possible. Precise machining of the cylinder bores is critical, and is the reason why rings should be fitted to the cylinder in which they are to be installed. A diameter variance from one cylinder to the next changes the end gap of the rings in that cylinder by a factor of pi (3.1416).

For example, a cylinder .001” larger in diameter will increase the ring end gap by .001 x 3.1416 = .003”,
rounding off, which could increase cylinder leakage in that cylinder and decrease performance"


since i'm building it for street use,

bore X 0.0045" for 1st ring
bore X 0.0050" for 2nd ring
0.0015 oil ring

means:

3.188" X 0.0045" = min of 0.014346" gap 1st ring
3.188" X 0.0050" = min 0.01594" gap 2nd ring
min gap of 0.0015 for the oil ring

someone verify my calculations there fer me? it's muh 1st build! i'm scairt, paww!

and haven't tried the test start without plugs removed yet (if it doesn't turn so my starter is gone yes?)

either way will know soon enuff.
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Last edited by NAJ2627; 06-15-2013 at 03:56 AM.
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Old 06-13-2013, 12:03 PM   #37
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NAJ2627 View Post
and haven't tried the test start without plugs removed yet (if it doesn't turn so my starter is gone yes?)
If it turns easily by hand with the plugs out but not with the starter then yes, I'd try a new or different starter.

By the way, thanks for the detailed writeup. I haven't built an engine since I rebuilt my Camaro engine (327 V8) but I'm re-assembling a 955 for my project bike so this will be very helpful as I check everything during assembly.
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Old 06-13-2013, 09:34 PM   #38
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by awasson View Post
If it turns easily by hand with the plugs out but not with the starter then yes, I'd try a new or different starter.

By the way, thanks for the detailed writeup. I haven't built an engine since I rebuilt my Camaro engine (327 V8) but I'm re-assembling a 955 for my project bike so this will be very helpful as I check everything during assembly.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:42 AM   #39
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

out of topic, but this looks interesting enuff.

stumbled upon this on a french (?) site while googling for ideas.

























great stuff people!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javadog
"If you want to f*** something up, just for the sake of doing something pointless, buy a 'Busa and have at it"
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:25 PM   #40
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Re: engine combo - 1127 block, crank, piston,head in '88 750 case.

This is what Iíve been up to (and decided)
Ditching my mikunis for EFI & microsquirt
Will do simple things only(batch fire injectors, fuel only control, spark from stock cdi )

Fuel system :
TB is from gsxr 1000k5, complete with fuel rail, 240cc injectors, TPS.
The secondary butterfly (was an absolute bitch to remove! Needs to be heated properly before the tiny screws can be taken out) is not needed as itís controlled via a servo & stock ECU.
Removed the secondaries & servo, cleaned etc etc. (that was the easy part!)
That another shiny fuel rail is from an audi TT, complete with 3 bar fuel regulator & 380cc injectors. Might be using that

Carb#1-#2 spacing is off about 1mm with TB#1-#2 (see pic) , so Iíd figure itíll fit the stock intake manifold with minor persuasion.
Needs re-spacing between 3rd &4th tho. Fuel rail also needs altering. That will be detailed later!

More worried about the wiring rather than the fabrication of the fuel system, mounting the fuel pump, etc etc.

Iíll worry about that later!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javadog
"If you want to f*** something up, just for the sake of doing something pointless, buy a 'Busa and have at it"
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welcome to where the sun shines all year round..

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