Iridium is out on the track with Big Foxie. Turns out that Big Foxie is a bad bad kitty. I will let him tell you all more about it when he gets back from tearing up the track.
Jp anything new done to the motor? I've only put 1600 miles on the stroker in two yrs. How is your bike holding up against newer bikes such as the beemer zx10? I have lots of carbon built up on the valves. About to throw some bg44k and new plugs in there
J
Last edited by mlissa2007; 10-15-2012 at 12:30 AM.
Motorcycle: RIP El Toro. Long live new bike BIG FOXIE! Ex KWS AMA 08 GSXR1000
Posts: 1,934
Re: Introducing EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER
Hey everybody
Yeah, I've been MIA. Sorry about that. JP has really been making an effort to get a hold of me, and I've blown him off a number of times. Sorry about that buddy, I really am....
Good news / bad news -
Bad news - Big Foxie needs wiring work. The bazzaz wiring has started to get loose and cause some issues - like the power cutting in / out on the track.
There are a couple of parts to that problem - 1. The bazzaz uses a TON of connectors - probably about 30 or so, if you run the full package (fueling, traction control, quick shifter, etc). A lot of this is because it interfaces in between the factory harness. For example - there is a factory wiring plug for the fuel injector. The BPD has a plug that goes into the factory plug, and then another plug that goes into the injector. The BPD sits "in between" the factory plug & injector - it intercepts the signal & then makes changes
So the BPD system has 2 plugs for everything it interfaces with. And it hits all the injectors, so 8 injectors x 2 = 16. Add in the factory plugs that it works with (8), and you end up with 24 plugged in connectors just for the fuel injectors. And thats a LOT of wiring in a very cramped space! And then you have another 8 BPD connectors for the ignition coils. Plus a bunch of other connectors that interface with sensors - like the gear position switch, throttle position switch, etc etc
2. Those plugs are starting to get loose. Some of that is because the system is just kinda old, and has had a lot of time / work on it. This was a serious racebike before i got it, and was torn down plenty of times. And, I've done the same.
And, I've probably been a bit rougher than i should have been on some of those connectors, esp on the throttle bodies. The problem is that the BPD system doesn't have what I would call a "bank disconnect" on the wiring - ie, there is no one big connector that you can unplug to disconnect all the BPD wiring on the throttlebodies for example. It all runs from the BPD box to the throttle bodies.
So, if you want to disconnecto the throttle bodies & take them off the bike, you have to go unplug about 20 connectors (16 just for the injectors) individually, and then hope you get them plugged back in just right
Anyways. What I'm going to do over the winter is hard wire the BPD box to the factory harness to eliminated almost all the small connectors, and then put in some big connectors so I can unhook / unplug the various subassemblies - like the TB's - as one piece. So instead of 20 BPD connectors and a dozen or so factory plugs for the TB's, I'll hardwire the BPD harness to the factory harness, permanently mating them, and then put a few big plug ins (like 30 or 40 pin connectors) so I can pull things off as subassemblies.
Like i said, some of the BPD connectors have gotten loose and are now creating intermittant issues - like a fuel injector cutting out for a few moments and then coming back
I ran big foxie at a few trackdays, dealt with some issues, thought I had it going well, then the power started going on/off
Violently going on/off. You can't have 30, 40, 50 hp disappear and then come back w/o warning on the track.... it will put you on your head
So I got pretty frustrated with it, and shut'er down for the season.
Been working on other stuff - doing a lot of work for my parents on their house. Did a bunch of work on their deck - seriously cleaning it (powerwashing it down to bare wood), restaining it with multiple coats, etc.
Since i was so frustrated with big foxie I just decided I would put her aside and get other stuff done....
But I'll fix big foxie over the winter. Track season is done anyways, so it wasn't a big rush.... and I needed time away
Here's the GOOD NEWS though - Big Foxie runs LIKE A BAT OUT OF HELL!!!
I had the long factory pro velocity stacks in it, because I was worried that with my super tall gearing (about 110 mph actual in first) the power might fall off in slow corners, so I figured the long FP stacks would add in some low end / midrange, and if i had it overgeared, it would help me pull out of those corners
And pull she did!
I had problems tuning her on the dyno. The connection between the laptop / desktop PC & the bazzaz unit works fine, UNTIL you start the bike. Then it works for a few seconds & then breaks connection. I think the USB plug connection on the BPD box has loosened up with time enough that when the bike is running, the vibration shakes it enough to make it lose connection.
So when I was on the dyno, we couldn't do any real time tuning. IE, couldn't run the bike, make changes, then re run it, w/o shutting down in between. Is possible to tune that way, but will take forever.....
So when i was at the dyno, we messed around with it for over an hour, trying to get the real time connection to work, and just couldn't get it
But, while I was there, and the bike was warmed up on the dyno, i said fuck it, lets do a dyno run
Now, the bike was running really lean on top, but still managed to pull out 167 FP horsepower, corrected of course.
Based on the bazzaz fuel/air sensor, I ended up adding about 15% fuel at full throttle, but this is AFTER the dynoing
So even with the top end really lean, it still pulled out 167 FP rwhp! And, honestly, with the fueling corrected it should pick up 3 or 4 hp. So I've been calling it 170 FP rwhp, which is significant. The BMW 1000's only do 160hp bone stock, and about 163, 164 with a good exhaust & some tuning
Oh, and btw, this was a step test of course (going up the tach 1000 rpm at a time, like 6000, 7000, etc, running it there for several seconds and letting readings stabilize) - not a sweep / acceleration test
Big Foxie has a SUPER wide powerband. From 8000 to 12000, the torque only varied 5% (3lb ft), and 7k and 13k were only 5% below that range
Torque looks like a tabletop. Power flattened out early, about 11,700 i'd guess, due
Big Foxie was a beast!!
Ran really, really hard on the track. NO lack of power coming out of the slow (40 to 50 mph corners). In fact, anything above about 1/2 throttle = tire spin / wheelie
And then, I decided I'd put the super short OEM velocity stacks in, I figured it might kill some midrange and add some RPMs on top
OH MY FUCKING GOD
I MEAN HOLY SHIT
BIG FOXIE RAN SO DAMN HARD WITH THE SHORT STACKS IT WAS SCARY
She didn't seem to lose any midrange / low end at all. Seemed like same killer midrange, and then the top end just went nuts !!!
Big Foxie went from scary fun fast to just scary fast!!!! I was spinning the tire all over the place and I was trying not to!! As in, spinning it at 100 mph + when I was straight up and down and rolling into the throttle carefully! And thats on a fully heated, new 200mm raceslick michelin
I wouldn't be surprised if Big Foxie made 175, 176 rwhp, factory pro, with optimized tuning and the short stacks
Those short stacks just.... seemed.... to make her a monster. Blew me away. She runs so hard with them that I bet I would have been happy with stock cams & still been able to out power about anything else on the track!! holy shit!
Anyways!! Have a buddy coming over, he had some surgery a few days ago on his sinuses so I need to hang out with him
I PROMISE I'll post more, and not be such a ghost. I just had to get away from the bike for a while, but that while is over
And I apologize to everyone, esp JP, for being such a pain in the ass. I just... needed some time off. Hope y'all forgive me
Motorcycle: 89 Honda NX 125; K7 600 (sold); 03 SV650 crack pipe, er, track bike Favorite Camper: OG
Posts: 1,597
Re: Introducing EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER
Quote:
Originally Posted by IridiumRed
As in, spinning it at 100 mph + when I was straight up and down and rolling into the throttle carefully! And thats on a fully heated, new 200mm raceslick michelin
I wouldn't be surprised if Big Foxie made 175, 176 rwhp, factory pro, with optimized tuning and the short stacks
It's about f***ing time. I was getting worried that you were starting to fall for that stripper. Well, from the photos you sent me, I guess I wouldn't blame you if you did.
I told you not to use those long stacks.... they do nothing but kill power. Short ones are the only way to go. Man if your bike puts out 175hp on a fp dyno, thats freaking amazing power. If my math serves me right, that would be 175 x 1.2= 210hp on a dyno jet. I see people use the 1.23 conversion as well which would add another 5hp. Either way, your bike rocks man. I knew it would be badass man, there was no doubt in my mind.
Give me a shout this weekend. I'll be at the hospital this whole weekend wking, so I will be up all damn night.
And I forgive you for giving me the cold shoulder. Just don't let that shit happen again.
__________________
2004 GSXR1k, ported head perfected by Jim Cambora, 76mm JE 13.5:1 pistons, Carrillo A rods, RC's 4mm crank, Akrapovic full evolution exhaust, Yosh STR-R cams, billet clutch basket, Brock clutch cushion, Koenig 1.5' billet pan, Bazzaz customed mapped by RaceworX, Hot bodies undertail/hugger, Zero gravity db screen, BST wheels with titanium pin kit, Afam sprockets, DID chain, Pipercross filter, NGK spark plugs, speedohealer, billet v-stacks, custom paint job, FP levers, APE head/case studs.
I'm putting down about 190whp or so on a dynojet and I've done some 120mph slides 15 degrees off center on pre-heated Dunlops and good pavement. Another 20hp ... OMFG.
BTW if you go with the short stacks you might find your lap times going up despite the extra power, because you'll have a hard time using it. I mean, I find myself short-shifting some very fast corners just to keep the tire from really blowing off (although this can have the opposite effect if you do lose grip, because the speed diff will be higher). Word to the wise: you have more than enough power as it is, the key to making the bike fast is making it work for you. I'm just sayin'... your milage may vary. If it puts a smile on your face, who cares, maybe!
Motorcycle: RIP El Toro. Long live new bike BIG FOXIE! Ex KWS AMA 08 GSXR1000
Posts: 1,934
Re: Introducing EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER
Second gear goes to 129 actual, with a 13,100 rev limit
At Heartland Park, on the short "back straight" (after turn 7), I was pulling little powerwheelies down a long section of it, just for fun. I'm not a wheelie guy at all, but I was pulling the front up about 6 inches.... accelerating....
At about 10k, in 2nd gear, anything past maybe 60% throttle brings the front up, just rolling into the throttle (this is coming off a corner that is a bit of a sweeper). The front just comes up, and if you slowly roll into it more it keeps it up. I think i kept the front up for a good 200 feet on a few occasions, basically 100 to 130 mph, and still not even hitting full throttle
The bike just has "dial a wheelie" power. 3rd gear, which goes to 147 actual (13.1 rev), is reaaaaallly dicey to hit full throttle and keep the front down. I think I pulled it off a few times, but still 3rd gear is "a gear to be respected". Basically 3rd gear, even with the tall gearing, is a "wheelie / wheelspin gear"
And thats with the LONG stacks
With the OEM short stacks in, fuck me...... i couldn't believe the difference. I expected to lose some low end, kill a little midrange, and add top end rev's (with the long stacks, it revved out early.... a little below 12K peak.... the power didn't fall off after that, it just stayed flat... but it made me feel like i should be short shifting)
But.... with those short stacks.... I didn't feel like it lost power ANYWHERE. The slow corners (40 to 50 mph), it was the same feeling - anything above 1/2 throttle was wheelspin / wheelie. But above that, esp above 9k, the bike just completely FUCKED OFF
I really have to dyno the bike with the short & long stacks, back to back, to see what the dyno says. The old "butt dyno" isn't that accurate. maybe I DID lose some midrange, put a hole in the powerband, and then had a spike afterwards - and that will always seem like a big increase in power... the "butt dyno" seems to be good at sensing transitions in power...
But the bike just seemed to LOVE those short stacks. Seemed like a way bigger gain than I expected. BUT.... I will say that I did some measurements before I put the short stacks in. The effective stack height went from 50mm to about 15mm (these are the short stacks that barely intrude into the airbox). OK, that will make a difference, but.... you have to remember that while the velocity stack length was 70% shorter than the earlier amount, the velocity stacks are just part of the intake tract, and if the intake tract (from entry of the Vstack to the back of the intake valve) was say 8 inches (200mm), a 35mm difference in vstacks would be a 15% difference give or take in overall intake tract length. Which should definitely move the power band around some (biasing towards top, away from low end)
But.... The one thing that I saw when I measured the Vstacks, which really caught my attention wasn't the LENGTH... it was the INSIDE DIAMETER. The FP stacks were 50mm inside, while the OEM shorts were 54mm.
Oh, my, now THERE we have something. 8% bigger ID = 16% bigger area. All else being equal of course (which it never is). That bigger ID just might equal a higher % of flow increase as well, because you will have some "boundary layer" effects at the surface... ie, there is probably a 1 or 2mm section around the edge that doesn't flow much because the air is effectively "stuck" to the walls. Now, with a decreasing taper to the bore (above 1.5 degrees, inclusive), the boundary layer should probably get washed away by the high speed air as it narrows down through the taper... but this stuff is already way over my head, and I dont have the tools / knowledge to be able to predict / understand that.
Either way though, before I put the short stacks in, that big increase in ID & therefore intake area told me that it was -possible- that the short stacks could show a huge pickup in power. IE, the long FP stacks with their small inside diameter could, maybe, be somewhat choking off the flow..... So going to the short stacks would not only change WHERE the power occurred (ie, moving the power side to side on a dyno chart, but could also change the overall AREA / HEIGHT of the power)
And that might be right, because the bike just seemed to EXPLODE with the short stacks.
It seemed like the power "moved up a gear". IE, the bike started spinning the tire & pulling wheelies iin one gear taller at the same rpm, same throttle position, with same tires
Seemed like with the short stacks, the bike wanted to aggressively spin the tire and wheelie in 4th gear... and that goes to 167 actual!!
If Big Foxie is a dragon, then those short stacks woke up that dragon... and that dragon was pissed!!
Honestly, I'm gonna go back to the long stacks, for a while at least. The short stack power was just too much for me. And that takes a LOT for me to admit!!
PS. Tim Radley sort of predicted this. He told me he thought the FP long stacks would make the bike "not want to rev worth a shit".... and might not even give me any more midrange.... He told me to put the short stacks in, i'd make more power everywhere
Oh yeah, I'm still very impressed with Tim's headwork. Maybe more impressed than ever. If I had to guess.... I'd say that I bet .... 60% of the power gain that I got is from his headwork, esp ifyou talk about part throttle power. The other 40% is from the bore increase (to 1070) and cams....
So, I'm DEFINITELY a believer in Tim's headwork. I highly recommend it!! in all honesty, I bet I could have done his headwork, the 1070 kit, and kept stock cams (but retiming those cams of course), and been VERY happy with the power
One last thing, the HP figures I discussed before, were with 91 octane pump gas, stock air filter, a big, brand new 530 chain...... Think what this sucker would make with oxygenated race gas, a race only filter, a worn out lightweight chain, etc............hahahaha
Motorcycle: RIP El Toro. Long live new bike BIG FOXIE! Ex KWS AMA 08 GSXR1000
Posts: 1,934
Re: Introducing EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaman
I'm putting down about 190whp or so on a dynojet and I've done some 120mph slides 15 degrees off center on pre-heated Dunlops and good pavement. Another 20hp ... OMFG.
BTW if you go with the short stacks you might find your lap times going up despite the extra power, because you'll have a hard time using it. I mean, I find myself short-shifting some very fast corners just to keep the tire from really blowing off (although this can have the opposite effect if you do lose grip, because the speed diff will be higher). Word to the wise: you have more than enough power as it is, the key to making the bike fast is making it work for you. I'm just sayin'... your milage may vary. If it puts a smile on your face, who cares, maybe!
Yep!
I'm gonna put the long stacks back in. I did a couple of trackdays with them, and while the power was.... immense and crazy, i felt like i could control it.
With the short stacks, I just didn't feel like i could control it anymore. or, put it another way, i'd have to back off the throttle so far to be careful that I'd be going slower. Backing off 20% for control, while the bike / tires could handle a 10% backoff
So I'll go back to the long stacks and work on my riding. And, next year, I might start playing with the traction control. Its not something I WANT to rely on, but..... it might save me a bunch of money in tires. Even if I can control the bike when the tire spins & keep it up right, it only takes a good spin every few laps to really cut down on the life of the tire!
On a side note, I tried to work on my riding style some last year - I've always been a bit of a parker / screamer as the saying goes. Was better over the past couple of years, but this year I decided I would try to go as far the other direction as possible, because then the "happy place" would be somewhere in teh middle. I basically got there. I just rode the shit out of the front tire. Tried to go in as fast / hard as possible. Tried to ride the bike like a 600 (and taking it easy on throttle on exits).
I finally achieved that. An ex AMA racer told me "man, you are just hammering that bike on entries..... y ou're on a big 1000, go in slow, come out hard!!! Stop riding that like its a 600 with no power!!" hahahaha
BUT!! I did overcome my "fear" of the front tire. I have a lot more confidence for how much the front will grip, and I understand how much faster i can go into a corner, IF I want to. So that eases my anxiety on the track. I can enter at a pretty good speed w/o worry about whether I'll lose the front, b/c I've gone in a lot faster before. So I back off that crazy entry speed, get the bike turned mid corner, get it stood up quick on corner exit and blast my way out of the corner...
Pretty funny, for me, to have an ex AMA racer tell me, "go in slower, and just hammer the shit out of it on the exit!!"
Motorcycle: RIP El Toro. Long live new bike BIG FOXIE! Ex KWS AMA 08 GSXR1000
Posts: 1,934
Re: Introducing EL TORO - THE TIRE KILLER
JP,
The vstacks I have in now are OEM, super shorts (I dont know if they make shorter ones, but I dont see how that would be possible). I'm not sure what they came out of, they were the stacks in the airbox when I got the bike - its what KWS put in when they were racing it in superstock. I THINK that they may be the outer stacks that come stock in the K7/K8 1000's (oem runs a longer pair in the middle, but I put in all 4 shorts)
They stick up only about ... 5mm, 10mm max, above the surface of the airbox. The effective length is a bit longer of course though, because some of the vstack goes through the airbox to mate with the throttlebodies of course
Btw, I think you might have told me before, but who made your stacks? Those look nice
My favorite stacks ever, at least for the K4's (not sure if they would fit the K7s) were the Attack velocity stacks. Pretty short, I'd say 10mm shorter than yours, but the design was really cool. Two piece aluminum that bolted together, and also had a bolt to tighten them to the throttlebodies. Big suckers too - the mouth was so big on them that they actually had a flat spot on each side so they butted up against each other in the box. I actually had to file down the flats a hair (maybe .005 or .010") so that they would fit!!
Those suckers sold for $500 new, i picked up my set for about $175 used.
Going out on a limb here, as I think about it, I THINK they would fit the throttlebodies in terms of ID, OD, but I think the K7's have a different spacing on the TB bores. I've heard that, haven't verified it. If the bore spacing was wider than the K4's, they might fit, but if it was narrower, no way....
Anyways. I'm not sure if they would have any performance gain over what you're running, except for the change that would occur due to different length, but they were just really cool from an engineering standpoint....
My recollection of looking at the OEM stacks I have around is that there's a part number embossed around the mounting base somewhere. That should give a clue as to what model they are off.
Short stacks with the secondaries taken out is the only way to go. You have to get it mapped to feel the full benefit. It just seems like the power come on quicker. Thats my opinion anyway.
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