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How to get your confidence back???

28K views 218 replies 24 participants last post by  Renn Sport 
#1 ·
I wasn't aware i'd lost my confidence, till I did my next trackday after I came off at Silverstone.

I'm no expert....Silverstone was my 3rd trackday and was really enjoying the day.As the day went on, I got faster and faster but then started missing braking points and hence missing my apexes and eventually came off at copse corner.
I even went out again after the off with an instructor, to correct my lines and BP.

Road riding is ok confidence wise but then I did Donnington on the 20th sept and couldn't believe how slow I was going!
Was NO WHERE near the pace I know i can do....seemed to be only be on right handers too.
Everytime my brain told my wrist to crack the throttle open, my wrist would reply "f**k you!"

Was really dis appointed with the day and the rain in the morning didn't help.

Went home feeling I under achieved...:crying
 
#2 ·
if you ride at 80%, you are more apt to be able to make corrections once you make a mistake. from what you described, you went beyond your limits. don't take that as a bad thing though. every time one learns a new adrenaline-type sport, they are too timid at the start, shortly after they become reckless and make a big mistake, then realize where their limits are at and then settle into where they should be. running off made you lose your "edge," but know you are better because of it, and the confidence will return.
 
#3 ·
:stupid

Stop trying to ride "fast" and try to slow down and concentrate on riding "right". If you can work on PERFECTING your riding, rather than working on trying to go fast, you will slow down a bit, and feel more comfortable. By doing so you will not set of the human panic instincts, and actually learn more and end up faster in the end.

Human survival panic instincts are the biggest difference between a fast rider, and not. 90% of the time our natural panic instincts are WRONG when on a motorcycle, and will make you crash. You have to train yourself to get rid of them. You can only do that by slowing down and sneaking up on them.
 
#4 ·
After your crash were you able to figure out exactly what you did wrong?

If you don't know what mistake you made and how to go about correcting then it can be really difficult to get your confidence back.

You said that once you started going faster and faster you started missing your braking points and that you "eventually came off at copse corner." Did you lowside, highside, run off the track?

I'd start there and then come up with a plan of what SPECIFIC exercises you could work on to get you back on track and riding at the pace you know you are capable of.

Misti
 
#5 ·
lol @ Joe.I thought that was the whole point on track :lmao
I'm pretty sure i was scared at Donnington, so that human survival, probably kicked it.

Misty Hurst......Have been told that I ran off the edge of the tyre but after having spoke to someone, they said that was doubtful, as my exhaust and pegs should've ground out before decking out, which didn't happen.

Here's a vid of the off...it's right at the end, if you're getting bored;

[ /youtube]

And this is me going shit slow at Donnington, for comparision....try not to fall asleep :lol

[ /youtube]

Was concentrating on bp at Donnington and was concentrating on looking where I was going at Silverstone but NOT both at the same time :dissapointed">[ /youtube]

Was concentrating on bp at Donnington and was concentrating on looking where I was going at Silverstone but NOT both at the same time :dissapointed" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">
">[ /youtube]

And this is me going shit slow at Donnington, for comparision....try not to fall asleep :lol

[ /youtube]

Was concentrating on bp at Donnington and was concentrating on looking where I was going at Silverstone but NOT both at the same time :dissapointed">[ /youtube]

Was concentrating on bp at Donnington and was concentrating on looking where I was going at Silverstone but NOT both at the same time :dissapointed" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350">
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#8 ·
Misty Hurst......Have been told that I ran off the edge of the tyre but after having spoke to someone, they said that was doubtful, as my exhaust and pegs should've ground out before decking out, which didn't happen.

Here's a vid of the off...it's right at the end, if you're getting bored;
I watched the vid and it's hard to tell from that angle what exactly happened. I have a few ideas but I need you to answer another question (or two) first.

Anyone else that wants to chime in is more than welcome, even if we don't figure out what Armi did wrong it will be a good discussion :)

When do you want to be getting on the gas in a corner and why?

Misti
 
#7 ·
And you would be wrong.

The point is to ride right. If you ride right, speed will come.

If you go out and constantly just push your personal limits you are not learning, you are simply surviving. You stop learning, and just re0inforce bad habits and incorrect lines and such.

Sometimes, you really do have to slow down to go faster ;). It is not just a saying. Working on drills is an example of that. There is a reason all the major schools dont send you out and just tell you to go set your personal best laps.

You should have a SPECIFIC goal for each time you go out. And that goal should NOT be just "go fast". If it is all the time, you are wasting your time :thumbup

I did a blog on it not long ago.

Read the last two blogs ;)

http://www.gomotojoe.com/Blog.html
 
#10 ·
Judging by the first video, it looks to me like a few things. One you are missing apexes a lot. Two you are likely not hanging off enough. Three it seems you are plowing the front far too long off the gas, and need to be opening the throttle back up slightly before the apexes to get some weight off the front. But lastly in that specific turn it looked to me you did a bit of all of the above... blew the apex, and plowed the front too long and were running wide, and you tried a late corner line correction with lean angle change (as apposed to throttle/speed change) and ran the bike off the edge of the tire while on the gas and lost the rear.
 
#12 ·
I've added one since then. But they are all still there. Let me know what you think :cheers
 
#13 ·
I'm enjoying the reading...flat track...10 seconds...good stuff!

I've got a friend who is ready/waiting for me to get an SV650 track only bike. Just waiting for the right moment.
 
#14 ·
SVs are sweet track bikes. Tons of fun. Ive recently been racing on one in the Endurance series and they are very good teachers in keeping momentum and being smooth
 
#15 ·
Haven't read the blog yet Joe but I know you know what you're talking about and I think most of the things you said are true, if not all.
Someone said that i couldn't have gone off the edge of the tyre, as the pegs, or exhaust didn't ground out first :dunno

Deffo wasn't hanging off enough and yes, was also missing apexes.
The coasting too much makes sense to me...have been reading totw2 with more intent now and keeping the bike where it's more compliant with the suspension and keeping weight distribution 40/60 with throttle control and being earlier on the gas is making sense.

The reason i think i lost my bottle, is cos' i didn't know why i came off.......I actually thought it was cos' of sitting too far back in the seat.
At donnington, I resorted to swiveling round the tank.
Have now gone back to sitting back on the seat and things seem to have improved....have yet to try it out on track but staying positive.

I need to be braking earlier, or harder and then getting on the gas earlier, right?
 
#18 ·
I need to be braking earlier, or harder and then getting on the gas earlier, right?
no. that is the wrong way to look at it. your lines are too tight. start your turn later, and from as wide as possible and see how you like it. when you take a tight line, your bike is leaned over longer, and thus you are unable to get on the gas. you are tipping in too early. it doesn't really matter where you brake or how hard, as long as your chassis has settled before the turn. don't take that to mean throw braking to the wind.
 
#16 ·
Ya know i'll confess now...

Remember you saying in a thread once, that if you're feeling scared, to slow down.....I was at one point but didn't slow down....was trying to suppress my survival instincts :facepalm :lol
 
#19 ·
Thats honestly how it felt...that the bike was tipped over for too long and i couldn't get on the gas early, or didn't feel comfortable getting on the gas.

You guys are good man!!!

So it's turning in later and harder/faster..........I get the taking a wide line bit, I just didn't apply it :dissapointed
 
#22 ·
yeah, you missed the apex and were running wide, so you felt like you couldnt add throttle. But eventually you did, but you also added a steering correction it looks like, and leaned over farther as you picked up the gas. Ideally you had blown the turn. You needed to get it turned, THEN pick it up and give it gas. You tried to save the turn AND your speed, and you simply cant really. In the future in that situation you need to get the bike to rotate, then extend your body to pick the bike up and pick up the throttle as you do so. Get it rotated FIRST though so that you have the available traction to pick up the gas.
 
#20 ·
You should ALWAYS be either on the gas, or on the brakes (ideally) once you reach a certain level of speed that trail braking is required.

But, with that said, "on the gas" does not always mean accelerating. In fact it CAN mean even decelerating.

Your hand should always be in full control of the throttle. There are turns where I accelerate, then decelerate, then accelerate again without braking. In those types of turns the throttle is never actually shut. It is just closed down to the point of decelerating at a controlled rate.
 
#23 ·
By shutting down the throttle you mean steady throttle, right?

It's the time between shutting down the throttle and opening up again, whilst the bike settles itself, is what I need to work on....it's that uncertain feeling i'm not used to...

Hope that makes sense.

How can you be on the gas but be decelerating, unless you're scrubbing off speed with turning?
 
#25 ·
If you are wide open, and close the throttle to half throttle, you will decelerate until the bike is going the speed that half throttle in that gear will carry you. So it is still open halfway but you are decelerating.

If your bike is so unsteady that you have to wait for it to settle, you need suspension tuning.

The only time my throttle is completely shut is when I am on the brakes. As SOON as I am off the brakes, I crack the throttle back open and then accelerate off the corner. There are many many turns that the throttle is closed down enough to slow down, but I dont touch the brakes. In those turns the throttle is not SHUT, it is just closed down enough to stop accelerating.

Doing that keeps the chassis in a constant load and much smoother.


Some examples are in this video. I only brake three times on this track. T1, T3, and the turn at the end of the highspeed Esses. The rest is simply decelerating.

FWIW I watch this video and see how shitty my lines are, as I was learning the track. :lmao Only like my fifth session around the track, but I got third :D

 
#30 ·
As far as i'm aware and have been reading.....The quicker the bike is cranked over, the later you can turn in and it also means that the bike is cranked over for less time, which in turn means you can get on the throttle earlier.
If your turn in is slower, you have to turn in earlier and the bike is cranked over for longer, which means you're coasting through the bend and later on the throttle, right?

Just a quick thanks for the input.

Thats the balancing act then right, balancing how much throttle you can give while cranked over?
 
#31 ·
Yes, turning the bike quicker means that you can turn the bike later, get on the gas earlier and have it leaned over for less time. And there is a lot less risk of you adding lean angle and throttle at the same time.

The idea is that you turn your bike as quick as possible and get on the gas as soon as possible once the bike is at the lean angle you want.

The balancing act with throttle control is not getting on the gas too hard initially and not waiting too long to roll it on. Smoothly, evenly and consistently is best :)

Now, how do your visual skills play a role in how quickly you can turn the bike? Do you think you can snap a bike over super fast in a corner if you don't have a good reference point for where you want to be at the apex?

Misti
 
#32 ·
The "trust throw". Throw it into a corner and trust it sticks :fact
 
#33 ·
Hahahaha, that is hilarious. Yes, the "trust throw," we see it all the time when we are coaching our students, they just come up to a corner and chuck it in hoping that it will go roughly where they want it to go...and that it sticks ;)

So how do you go from the "trust throw" and having inconsistent lines to a real deliberate quick turn that puts you on exactly the line you want?

Misti
 
#34 ·
Never heard of that term.....I think i need to work on quick steering via counter steering, looking way past the Apex, before hitting it, as in where i want the bike to go.
Not sure if I answered your question :scratch.

Have been watching some on board moto gp footage and did notice, that they were indeed, either on the brakes, or on the gas, no coasting :burnout
 
#35 ·
Here is an idea, what if you were to look at a specific spot (reference point) right at the apex, at the exact spot you wanted the bike to apex, BEFORE you actually turned the bike? Do you think that would help you get the bike turned more quickly, if you knew EXACTLY where you wanted the bike to be before you actually turned it?

Misti
 
#37 ·
I think when I came off.......I was concentrating on where I wanted to go so much, that I wasn't aware of where I actually was on track, if that makes sense.

Misty, in answer to the above question....yes!
It's a quick glance at the reference spot, where you want to apex, before getting there and then looking ahead where you want to end up, right?

One of my fears I think, is how much throttle you can give while cranked over........at Silverstone , where I came off, before I actually did, I was very suprised at how much I could!
Confidence in the tyres was good also(racetecs).
At donnington, I just didn't commit enough, or was probably too scared of coming off! :dissapointed

Thanks immensely, for all the input guys :cheers

Maybe I just need to grow some balls but knowing where I went wrong has help....though I won't know for sure till the summer
 
#39 ·
Kind of pitching in late here it seems.
Anyhow.

I've had 2 lowsides with my 01 zx6r within the over 25 000mi in the 2 seasons I had with it so far. One lowside was a month after I traded it in for my year old cbr125. Second lowside this summer in July to avoid hitting the car in front of me.

Besides how I came to my crashes (always in full gear), I got back up on my bike to ride it back home after dusting off, having people help me getting it out of the ditch or waiting for cops/ambulance to check up on me. I didn't get scared the 2nd time I just got a hint not to go fast at all in that blind corner with a merging lane at the end...not that I wasn't told so already beginning of the season.

For me to lose fear I rode with someone who knew the corners for years and was able to adjust and stay on my riding level.
At that point and with some trust in each other, I started following as close as 10ft and focus on his rear tire only !!!

That way I got just the feeling of what going faster means. Did that a few times within a session and whenever I was ready to go into the corner by myself faster and braking later, I knew that this kind of feeling doesn't mean I'm about to crash and I can keep concentrating on exiting the turn or what the other rider is doing in front of me.

I've scraped pegs on my bike a few times too often and sometimes had to back off the throttle slightly and coast through the turn so I wouldn't need to lean any further/lower (crucial).

My medicine was just a faster rider around my level that I could follow close enough to gain confidence in what still feels stable.
 
#42 ·
I've scraped pegs on my bike a few times too often and sometimes had to back off the throttle slightly and coast through the turn so I wouldn't need to lean any further/lower (crucial).
Coasting is a big no no, from what i've understood.Either on the brakes, or on the throttle!
The guys i'm sure(hope) will correct me, if i'm wrong!

My medicine was just a faster rider around my level that I could follow close enough to gain confidence in what still feels stable.
Yea, as long as he doesn't pull off in the distance......I got a mate to follow who was faster.....he always pulled on me on right handers :scratch....I'm pretty sure it's a combination of, not looking far enough ahead and wrong BP....but that's just my thoughts.
 
#40 ·
#45 ·
:lol Piss taker!!!

Let's say you are already at max lean angle, scraping knee or peg and you find yourself running a bit wide in the corner? What would rolling off the gas do in this situation? What other options do you have?

Misti
That would make you run wider, have heard that touching the rear brake helps tighten up the turn but I'd probably lock them up, so........I'd probably counter steer more and end up on my arse, right?
 
#48 ·
Initial thought was moving over on the seat more but no!

Weighting the inside peg?....I'm asking....lol
 
#59 ·
Hahahaha ;)

Well moving in the seat would probably upset the bike more than you would want and weighting the inside peg won't do much. What if you moved your upper body over (towards the inside of the turn) and down? What effect do you think that might have on the bike and the line that it is taking?

Misti
 
#49 ·
I think we are assuming you are decked out in some way, and already running wide. Cant turn/lean any more and dont want to go straight off.

Easing off the gas may not be a terrible idea... but CLOSING it would absolutely be.

You need more ground clearance, and to carry the same arc at relatively the same speed. There is only one way to do that ;)
 
#50 ·
Hey Armi , sorry to hear of the spill mate ... i had a nasty one around a month ago at Sanddown ... still recovering will need op on left leg.:banghead
Im going to be going through the same struggles me thinks , im by no means the best track pounder but do ok ... my mistake was trying keep up with a much better rider ( a good mate ) lessen learned !!!!!!!!!!!!! :twitch
 
#51 · (Edited)
Did you actually lay the bike down when you went off? You'll get a lot of good advice from these guys on how to get up to pace again but if you went in the grass - and dropped the bike, then that probably didn't have to happen at all.

Racing is one thing, but at a track day, if you start to realize you're not going to make a corner, stand the bike up, get off the brakes, drive into the grass, and do a little dirt biking - AKA rear brake only, and you should be 100% fine.

I'm at three track days myself and I've been in the grass twice in those two days, once for coming in too hot off the front straight and the second time had the rear break loose momentarily and lost my line. Both times I managed to ride it out, it was scary, but got right back on the track and kept on taking laps. I hit the green at 100+MPH the first time around and it was a bumpy ride and a bit hair-raising working the rear brake while staring at the big wall coming at me, but the party went on.

On a track with good run-outs the grass should be avoided but if you have to use it, use it.
 
#52 ·
Other than the last line this is mostly terrible advice.

If you are running off nearly every trackday you need to reevaluate your riding. Stop trying to see how fast you can go before you crash. There is only one way to find out. And crashing sucks
 
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