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Why Are Fast Guys Fast?

5K views 99 replies 36 participants last post by  COBRA90GT 
#1 ·
We all know that one must have proper body positioning, throttle control, and braking technique in order to ride at an intermediate to advanced pace for trackdays and racing. However, one can only move their body into the right position by so much. One can only brake so hard and have so much throttle control. So what exactly is it that makes the super fast guys go, well, super fast? Is it experience? Is it proper bike setup? But if it is those things, then why arent the old fuckers flying around like AMA guys? Am I the only one who has wondered this?

So, if there are any super fast guys on here, or anyone who knows some superfast guys, please let me know how you got that way. This question has really been bugging me especially as I watch CCS and AMA youtube vids. I know that practice makes perfect, but how does that explain the kids coming up thru the ranks by the time their 18? And those CCS guys have the same body positioning, braking points, etc as the AMA guys, yet the AMA guys would blow a CCS rider out of the water. What makes them tick? Im a bit tipsy so hopefully this line of questioning makes sense. Someone please cure me curiosity.
 
#4 ·
:lmao true true.
 
#5 ·
Genetics play a part too. The guys who end up at top level can process input and convert that into the correct actions much faster than the average person. I watched a test with Michael Schumacher once - his eye-hand coordination seems superhuman. A few years ago he participated in an IDM race (German equivalent of AMA) on a wildcard just for fun - and finished 3rd, even with relatively little motorcycle track experience.

Practice can do a lot but practice plus genetics is what you need for the highest levels.
 
#19 ·
Genetics play a part too. The guys who end up at top level can process input and convert that into the correct actions much faster than the average person. I watched a test with Michael Schumacher once - his eye-hand coordination seems superhuman. A few years ago he participated in an IDM race (German equivalent of AMA) on a wildcard just for fun - and finished 3rd, even with relatively little motorcycle track experience.

Practice can do a lot but practice plus genetics is what you need for the highest levels.
Intangibles..............inherent abilities someone just posesses.
 
#9 ·
heaven knows I need a shit ton of this. LOL
 
#8 ·
So, technique, education, balls, practice and DNA is the recipe to be a top tier racer. Seems simple enough :facepalm.
 
#11 ·
I'd say talent, dedication, unique sense of speed, full throttle control and experience which all adds up to full confidence in what your are doing on a bike are major factors that would make a fast rider.....and when reached this level bike performance will play apart.
I think it is common for most to have started early on small bikes and gone the grades towards becoming super fast.

At 52 I am by no means a very fast rider (and age is catching up), but fast enough to have won some local 2nd tier "Superbike" races in Thailand the last few years.

I got to my level simply because I have always ridden my bikes alot and been very kean on developing my skills rather than blinging out the bike for bike night purposes.........even though the mod bug hit me as well a while back :biggrin.....
I have studied books, taken a few schools and tried to obtain as much as possible on how to ride a bike fast, street or track.

When riding in some groups I am always amazed to see how many riders are actually lacking basic knowledge on how to ride a bike...above all 180HP beasts :eek:hmy
 
#13 ·
wouldnt be fun if it was easy! certainly would suck though for the guys who got all the other elements perfected, but lost out on the DNA aspect. Make it so far in a career only to get stuck in a rut at a certain point.
 
#15 ·
George Carlin, biggest realist out there. love that guy. so funny.
 
#17 ·
It's quite interesting the whole idea of "having more balls". Surely having that confidence in your skills and your machine is key.

Whats interesting is when I look at the sim racing communities I've been a part of. You can clearly see the whole "alien" idea going on there. Even though personal risk, smashing your machine up, etc, are not at all part of sim racing, there are still the guys that can just go so much quicker than anyone else. As in new car on a new track, after a few laps to figure the lines out, they are right up the top of the timesheets

It must be something to do with natural talent and reactions, because even without the risks, you can see the people farting around at the back of the group, slipping and sliding around and setting terribly slow laptimes (having fun of course though :punk). And they are trying as hard as they can (because you see them complaining on forums sometimes), yet they find it hard. I dunno, like pushing through some sort of mental block, or barrier :dunno
I dunno if "getting a feel" is part of reactions though, because when racing the 60's F1 cars around in rFactor2, some people just spin constantly, or overcook their slides. Whereas for me, controlling the drive out of a corner with the car just drifting a little seems ok, as well as doing it consistently.










inb4 "lol sim racing ***, durrrrrrrr" :biggrin

 
#56 ·
It's quite interesting the whole idea of "having more balls". Surely having that confidence in your skills and your machine is key.

Whats interesting is when I look at the sim racing communities I've been a part of. You can clearly see the whole "alien" idea going on there. Even though personal risk, smashing your machine up, etc, are not at all part of sim racing, there are still the guys that can just go so much quicker than anyone else. As in new car on a new track, after a few laps to figure the lines out, they are right up the top of the timesheets

It must be something to do with natural talent and reactions, because even without the risks, you can see the people farting around at the back of the group, slipping and sliding around and setting terribly slow laptimes (having fun of course though :punk). And they are trying as hard as they can (because you see them complaining on forums sometimes), yet they find it hard. I dunno, like pushing through some sort of mental block, or barrier :dunno
I dunno if "getting a feel" is part of reactions though, because when racing the 60's F1 cars around in rFactor2, some people just spin constantly, or overcook their slides. Whereas for me, controlling the drive out of a corner with the car just drifting a little seems ok, as well as doing it consistently.










inb4 "lol sim racing ***, durrrrrrrr" :biggrin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGy7lDtm5G8
I don't get how you can do this. For me, driving on the track is something I have to feel. I have to feel the vibration of the car and the tires on the track and the g forces. I couldn't do this and actually be fast at all. :dunno
 
#20 ·
If your not born into it...Money... only thing it doesn't buy is genetics but hey who knows in 20 years. Money buys education, track time, race experience, built bikes, pays for travel, living expenses, wife doesn't bitch when she has plenty. All those things make you go fast but can't have any of it without money. I'm pretty sure most the top guys have never even held a normal job in their lives.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Motorcycle.com Free App
 
#21 ·
This s a very interesting question.
And the money factor as said above can play a big part of it.
At the all levels of racing,
It's all linked if you ask me.
To ride fast and consistent you need to be confident in your own ability and your Bike.
But how do you get that confidence.
You can practice and you will get better.
Or you can pay someone to teach you and get better $$$
Then you find that your going faster but on track days you are still not out front.
But your doing everything right.
It's the bike $$$$$
New bike or old bike with upgrades
Your times get better but your still not in front and your getting beaten buy guys on older or slower bikes ?????
You then have to say have you just reached your limit or do you just not have the desire like the guys in front to push that little bit harder or is it that your really just scared to put any harder.
Yes it's money, Balls, confidents, education, ability, but its Also desire and how much you want to be at the front more then the next guy.


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#23 ·
I'd say most of it has already been covered but I also believe a lot of it is simply alien shit. When I used to race a few years back I had a buddy who went out a couple of times to watch and eventually bought a street bike (only previous experience was occasional rides on our street bikes.) After a season of street riding, he bought a hooptie track bike and started racing the following summer. By the middle of that summer, he was a top 10 amateur finisher. He had balls of steel BUT crashed all the time. He eventually called it quits that same summer because he was breaking bones (& his bike) left and right.
 
#26 ·
Physical conditioning is good for one thing when it comes to riding motorcycles: Stamina. You don't need muscles to get a bike around a track, but you DO need endourance to last the duration of the race, particularly when the weather is less than optimal. Do you think Pedrosa is a muscle bound weight lifter? Have you ever actually seen him or Stoner? Those guys are freaking tiny, like horse jockey tiny, but they seem to get around just fine.

Seriously though, a good understanding of technique helps since you can analyse what is going on and what to do to make a line work, body positioning to get the most out of the bike, braking to get deeper into the corner, feel for the tires to know when you are at the limit.

Genetics are a huge part of why some people can get on a bike and immediately be fast though. You have to have that mental composition that allows you to process everything and put it all together. Training can define the sharp edge, but without the talent, training does not do much more than teach technique. I have worked with people time and time again (I am an instructor) and with some people, no matter how much you work with them, they will never be upper tier riders. Never. They just don't have what it takes. Others take very minimal time to get up to speed and just use the information given them to get that little extra bit to give them an edge. That later group can get on anything and be quick since they instinctively have a feel for what the bike needs to get around a track. They can feel what the tires are doing, what the suspension is doing, an dput it all together to get around quickly.

Money don't mean shit if you don't have talent. Take a look at Johnny Rock Page. Plenty of money, some talent, but will never be upper tier. Then look at Danny Eslick. He can take any bike and do wonders with it.
 
#27 ·
Great responses guys! Pretty sure it was all covered.

I honestly think it all boils down to luck, experience, and DNA. You have to be lucky enough to either be born into a racing family or be rich enough to afford all of the costs racing inflicts. You need to be able to run dozens of trackdays and races to obtain the right experience, but of course all that costs money as well. To run good practices you need the rigt setups, but that even requires a bit of luck and knowing the right people. Then even if you are dripping gold, you need to be blessed enough to have the right DNA to make it to the top levels. Sounds like one big crapshoot to me........God I love this sport! :lmao
 
#28 ·
great thread! I agree its all been covered from having the courage to push and the talent to know how to. After only 2 years of TD's I was put into the fastest group and keeping up with most of those guys. I feel I got there fairly quickly BUT I crashed alot because I aint skerred to find the limit and make mistakes!
 
#29 · (Edited)
While I don't exactly have any track time on my bikes, I used to work at an autocross track. I usually got stuck working on Bike days, with Advanced class.

You can always spot the wild-card out of the bunch, just watch the practice days. Because they usually end up leaving in an ambulance, or causing someone else to leave in one.(ok, not always...but I've seen it happen plenty of times)

More balls than brains, you're gonna be in pain!
 
#30 ·
There is a "pace" that on any track I have been to that I feel almost anyone can get to with enough time,money, practice, and education.

That pace is pretty damn fast. I'm talking top ten amateur/novice race pace. And that pace is not requiring a anythimg more than a mildly prepared track bike at best.

Beyond that it is talent. It can't be bought. It can't be learned. It is a feel. A sense. An ability to process and react when needed and most of all NOT react when not needed. An ability to ignore a bunch of natural human survival instincts that are screaming at you. More often than not natural human survival instincts are wrong on a motorcycle at speed.

And it is a desire to be the best. Not just good. The best. A competitive drive that bleeds into nearly everything you do.

I am confident I could teach nearly anyone who wants it bad enough to go "fast". Going fast is easy actually if you want it bad enough.

I can't teach anyone to be a racer though.

A racer knows if he is a racer or not. It can't be taught.
 
#31 ·
there is a "pace" that on any track i have been to that i feel almost anyone can get to with enough time,money, practice, and education.

That pace is pretty damn fast. I'm talking top ten amateur/novice race pace. And that pace is not requiring a anythimg more than a mildly prepared track bike at best.

Beyond that it is talent. It can't be bought. It can't be learned. It is a feel. A sense. An ability to process and react when needed and most of all not react when not needed. An ability to ignore a bunch of natural human survival instincts that are screaming at you. More often than not natural human survival instincts are wrong on a motorcycle at speed.

And it is a desire to be the best. Not just good. The best. A competitive drive that bleeds into nearly everything you do.

I am confident i could teach nearly anyone who wants it bad enough to go "fast". Going fast is easy actually if you want it bad enough.

I can't teach anyone to be a racer though.

A racer knows if he is a racer or not. It can't be taught.
love this! :cheers
 
#35 ·
I am of a different opinion that some people here.

Genetics may play a part, but with so many people around the world being able to go fast, it's not just a question of genetics.
What most people don't realize, is that people like Rossi, Schumacher etc. have all grown up with their respective sport. Rossi rode bikes almost before he could walk. This makes it second nature to them. The older you are before you start, the harder it is to learn.

Many people over the years however, have shown that sheer determination and will can get you to the top. And I am of this school of thought.

If you believe that the person next to you on the grid, is naturally superior to you, then you have already lost. I think that is a horrible thing to have in your mind, and if you believe that, you shouldn't be competing, because you doomed to fail. You don't have the will to drive you forward.

Confidence in yourself, your bike and indeed the people who help you, is everything.

Confidence in yourself, comes from your training, physical and mental. Confidence in your bike comes from a good setup, which in turn comes from the people who help you. If you lack any one of these parameters, you won't win.

To be honest, I don't give a shit what people believe other people are capable of doing. I have always held the belief that you can train and learn anything - if you have the will. Some people learn easier than others, but that doesn't mean that you can't.

However, if you lack the will to do it, then you won't succeed either. People who are good at things, are good at them because they truly want to.
 
#37 ·
That goes to what I said. I think anyone can go damn fast.

But I dont think anyone...even if they were children trained by the best etc...can be a champion or even top level pro.

Not everyone has the mental ability or athleticism to do it.

Anyone can learn to play piano. Not anyone can be Beethoven/Bach/Mozart etc.
And there are varying levels of that obviously.

I have never agreed with "you can do anything I'd you want it bad enough" mentality.

I don't care how hard I train, ill never run a 4minute mile. Ill never have a 60" vertical leap. Ill never run a 4.3 40yd dash.

I feel I can go faster than average on a motorcycle though. If the right doors open I think I could be a high level pro.

Sadly it is likely too late. That is another reality. Right time right place Plays a lot into it.

The dude who is faster than Rossi/Lorenzo/pedrosa etc might be an Inuit fisherman in northern Canada and will never know it.
 
#41 ·
If you trained from you were a baby, don't you think you could run a 4 minute mile?

But regardless, here is a funny story, and this is absolutely true:
Roger Banister who was the first official person to break the 4 minute mile, had been struggling to beat that time for years. And mind you, he didn't train to run this, since he was a kid. Finally he started mental training, and he visualized himself running the entire race, step for step. And his motivation to do this came when he was humiliated as the Olympics when he didn't win a medal as expected. So his will was in place and now he had his mental training sorted.

He beat the 4 minute mile after he started visualizing the run.

When other people learned of his secret to the 4 minute mile, his record didn't even stand for 46 days. Other people got the hang of it.
Training in this case is everything, but not just of your body or your genetics.

Now I agree that there comes an age when it is practically impossible to be an athlete, but looking over the factor of significant age, I still believe it is possible through training.
 
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