...regarding tires(Sportec M1's specifically).

OK here's the deal. Pushed the front tire 3 times on the street yesterday riding at about 70%. Not good.

The first time it happened I thought it was a center of gravity thing as I was being really lazy and had my nads on the tank and was not hanging off at all. So I graemlins/bash.gif 'd myself and started riding like I meant business. It happened again while riding w/good form, so I pull over and check psi...yup, 32lbs. The same as it was when I checked it before the ride. Confidence restored I hit the road again at the same 70% aggresion level riding w/ proper form and as smooth as I know how. The 3rd time the fugger felt like it pushed a foot easy.

These tires have one track day(150mi) plus about 250 street mi on them and look fine.

I recently made some suspension changes on the bike, and although these changes caused headshake on uneven surfaces(especially under hard accel) at THE TRACK...the maiden voyage on THE STREET with the same tires and suspension was just fine. I should note that the maiden voyage was before the trackday and the front sliding incidents were after the trackday.

Also...I've changed to a 180/55ZR/17 and I was spinning the hell out of the rear coming out of exits w/out really trying at all. This did not happen on the maiden street voyage either.

Are M1's so cheap because they don't hold up well to trackday abuse? Is my susp the culprit, and if so...why didn't the front push on the maiden voyage?????

Sorry for the long post but just can't figure it out.

Any idea's... graemlins/icon_wtf.gif

[ 09-09-2002, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: poacher ]

No love for a brutha??

Originally posted by poacher:
No love for a brutha??<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Spooner had a problem with the M-1's, I think he said his tires wore out pretty quick...Ummmm, just pay the piper, and get some Renn's dude... graemlins/thumbup.gif images/icons/grin.gif

Man I didn't want to just come out and say it...but there may be some issues w/the M1. images/icons/frown.gif

I always got 2 track days and about 800mi out of the 207rr's and they stuck like glue to the bitter end.

Well I have been able to get 2 track days (of non stop riding at over 200 miles a day) and then still get over 1000 miles on the street from my supercorsa tires.. images/icons/grin.gif

John

Looks like my penny pinching ass needs to drop some coin on better rubber. images/icons/frown.gif

Either that...or just live w/the 207rr's

Too bad really...the M1's felt pretty good on the track. The rear was spinning up more than I'm used to, but I attributed that to being on 180's for the first time.

Get what ya pay for I reckon. images/icons/grin.gif

[ 09-09-2002, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: poacher ]

i have used michelin pilot sports and supercorsas on the track, the rubber on the M1 is softer then the pilot sport, and the sports have done me 2 trackdays at philip island and nearly 8000km's on the street, i noticed on the M1 the rubber is softer so it will wear quicker, but the tread pattern is wider which will make the tyre warm up faster and possibly ball up easier, it maybe wheel spin from that, although wheel spin is not a bad thing (i seen ppl reguarly do this on a weekend ride with supercorsas and leave large black lines outta apex of corners) If you do want some mileage and dont want payout for rennesports or supercorsas have a look at pilot sports.. at the moment my gixxer has a front M1 and rear pilot sport, it will be at the track near end of the month, i can still squeeze another trackday out of the gixxer if i dont ride it till then, or i may take the TLR which has a rear supercorsa, but means i have to do my commuting on the gixxer to save the tlr rear tyre (tyres on the tl have very short life span)

[ 09-10-2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Drizzt ]

Very interesting...first street ride was at 30/30 (That's the psi upon installation and i left it there) and they performed well. Second session was on the track @ 30/30 and again they performed well. Third session was on the street...this time i brought psi to 32/32 b/c that's what i always run on the street and i push the front 3 times in situations where the front should NOT slide. Hrrrrmmm...can such a small psi dif turn a relatively good tire into a scary POS? That would sure wrap up my little mystery in a neat little package. I'll give it a shot on the next rip.

BTW...I'm springing for Renns for the Oct 7th trackday. What the hell! Hammer will be proud of me! images/icons/grin.gif

Thanks for all your input guys...I appreciate your help. graemlins/bounce.gif

Originally posted by poacher:
Very interesting...first street ride was at 30/30 (That's the psi upon installation and i left it there) and they performed well. Second session was on the track @ 30/30 and again they performed well. Third session was on the street...this time i brought psi to 32/32 b/c that's what i always run on the street and i push the front 3 times in situations where the front should NOT slide. Hrrrrmmm...can such a small psi dif turn a relatively good tire into a scary POS? That would sure wrap up my little mystery in a neat little package. I'll give it a shot on the next rip.

BTW...I'm springing for Renns for the Oct 7th trackday. What the hell! Hammer will be proud of me! images/icons/grin.gif

Thanks for all your input guys...I appreciate your help. graemlins/bounce.gif <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hammer will Deff be proud images/icons/grin.gif LOL

Let me know how they feel after you test them out with 30 psi images/icons/wink.gif

You betcha..Poacher... graemlins/thumbup.gif Can't wait to hear bout the Huge grin on your mug, after ya ride on the Renn's... graemlins/laugh.gif

Yea once you get the Renns you might never get off them... images/icons/grin.gif

John

How many heat cycles did you put your tires through on the track day, Poacher?

I know nothing about the new M-1s, and wouldn't imagine that you'd put them through enough heat cycles during the course of one track day to lose grip, but it is a possibility. Actual miles have alot less of an impact on most sportbike tire's ability to grip as do the number of heat cycles they've been through.

Have they blued up any? (taken on that purplish-blue hue on the edges where they've run hard).

I was out yesterday doing some ramps and My tires just did not feel right, almost felt like the rear was drifting out sometimes, and I wasn't even getting as low as I have before with them.

Well I remembered that I had just brought the PSI up from 30/30 to 32/32 and I just didn't like the feel, they took abit longer to get warm, They felt stiff, could feel every bump, and a few times I felt like the rear was drifting, and I was barely at knee dragging angles. So I went and gas'd up, dropped the Psi by 2 pounds back to 30/30 and went back at it. All I'll say is that they felt much better, more like I was used to, I was back decking the pucks and the tire was staying planted.

Try dropping the PSi to 30/30 and see what that does for you! I personally have NO problems with these tires, they ARE AWESOME images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

Just get the Supercorsa's. I have over 250 race laps (probably around 500-600 miles) on the set currently on the bike and while they don't stick like they used to they are still very predicatable and I would run them again. As far as losing the front, even with the number of miles on my current set the front has never slipped. I'm not the fastest guy on the track but I do run consistently top 10 at the races and was faster than 75% or so of the people at the Trackdaz event at Buttonwillow. You may also want to check your suspension as it could easily be the culprit. And lastly, what the heck are you doing pushing the bike that hard on the street in the first place? Save if for the track where there aren't extra envrionmental variables (also known as cars) or unpredictalbe roads...gravel etc.

Moss...I know the exact corners where I lost the front and can get pretty close to the speed and temp variables, so I'll recreate the whole situation at 30/30 this weekend and I'll report back.

Lean...did 6 or 7 sessions @ the track. On the last 2 sessions I was riding as hard as I was able. Both front and rear tires were blue, but I've used Bridgestone and Dunlop and now Metzler and they ALL go blue after a trackday. The Metzler is the only one I've had probs with post trackday.

Litespeed...susp could be the culprit, but why would the first street ride on the M1's be fine and the street ride after the trackday be problematic? Muy Mysterioso as we say in Sanger.
Also I appreciate your concern regarding aggressive street riding. Really! images/icons/smile.gif I was ripping along pretty good but like I mentioned...I ride at about 70% on the street and the front pushed in situations where it normally would not have. Believe me...I'm 35 w/a wife and 2 young children who count on me to come home in one piece. I'm about as level headed a street rider as you'll find. images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks again guys...I knew I could count on you for intelligent input. graemlins/bounce.gif

Different road and basically the same pace. I was being kinda lazy so the pace may even have been slower.

As for susp changes...I had the proper spring rates installed for a rider of my size and weight. I don't know exactly where compression/rebound settings are set, but I may be looking at a front rebound setting issue.

I'll hammer this thing out one way or another. images/icons/grin.gif

m a y b e you didn't sag it correctly? If you went to heavier springs, and you didn't dial in enough sag, there's a possibility that you're running on top of the suspension (you're not sagging enough), which could lead to harshness & lack of compliance at lower speeds and loads. Faster speeds and loads encountered on the track might tend to mask this, especially if you turn in on the front brakes. But this wouldn't explain why it rode fine before the trackday.

Also - if you were cranked down on preload before changing to the appropriate springs to compensate for being too heavy for the stockers, backing off the preload after the switch will that end of the bike. So - if you changed up the front springs, and backed out the preload appropriately, you'd be lowering the front end, which would be changing the stance of the bike, and possibly causing the handling problems you describe? But - once again, this wouldn't explain it just happening after trackday.

Just a couple possibilities out of many, bro.

[ 09-11-2002, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: leanangle_750 ]

No doubt the susp set-up isn't optimal. What I really need to do (and will do) is slowly and incrementally make one change at a time until I fix the problem.

I'll start with the tire psi...then the tires themselves. Then on to the susp settings but... I tells ya sumpin taint raht wit dat front tire. graemlins/thumbdown.gif perhaps being exacerbated by a less than optimal susp set-up. Hell...rider sag is set at 15mm front and rear. I'm pretty sure that's not right.

Lotta work to do before Oct 7th. graemlins/thumbup.gif

15mm of SAG.. images/icons/shocked.gif Dam brutha..you need more than that.. images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/grin.gif I don't know if you've seen this, but here's a link to some suspension stuff...there's a trouble shooting guide in here www.circuit1.com (http://www.circuit1.com) Hope ya get it sorted out... images/icons/grin.gif

[ 09-11-2002, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Hammer 4 ]

I know..I know. graemlins/bash.gif me-> graemlins/bitchslap.gif <-me

I've got a friend who will help me set the rider sag properly. I'm thinking 30mm fork 30mm shock.
What do y'all think?

[ 09-11-2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: poacher ]

Originally posted by poacher:
I know..I know. graemlins/bash.gif me-> graemlins/bitchslap.gif <-me

I've got a friend who will help me set the rider sag properly. I'm thinking 30mm fork 30mm shock.
What do y'all think?<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">graemlins/thumbup.gif That's what I had... images/icons/grin.gif

Ok, I did have some problems with my M1's also. I used them at the first track day of the year-only milage on them was to scrub them in. At the track it rained early that morning so it was after noon that I was even able to 'get it on'. So I got like half of a day on these tires-get my ass home and I see that the front had worn ALL the way through the tread and was bald on the right edge (lots of rights images/icons/wink.gif ). This tire was useless on the street if I was having any fun so for the next track day I used supercorsas (super soft front/ soft rear) and I was VERY impressed. They held up much better and even had more traction-the M1's do have unreal grip for a 'street' tire and this was my first time on race tires.

But..between me and all my track day buddies we have used up at least 10 sets of M1's and most of us have different luck with them. Some guys do several days on them with no problems or wierd wear and then there is me and one other guy that toasts them in one day-riding style is part of it, but we are all fast/race group riders within 5 seconds or so of lap times. I am just going to use M1's on the street from now on and get another set of rims for corsas for next season-I think that is the optimal set up graemlins/thumbup.gif

Oh and also I was thinking that I know lots of guys on liter bikes tend to let off the gas a lot in the corners which really stresses the front tire-if you are doing that try getting on the gas earlier to transfer the weight to the rear tire more..

-Spooner

[ 09-11-2002, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Spooner ]

well - it's pretty hard to push the front anyway - so if they're going after 6 or 7 sessions, maybe it is time to try out another set of tires. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

I can't think of anything suspension-wise, short of some sort of mechanical failure, that would account for your problems IF you ran the same suspension set-up on the street (on the same roads, at the same pace) before the trackday without any problems.

What changes did you make to your suspension before that maiden voyage & trackday?

[ 09-11-2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: leanangle_750 ]

Never rode on the M1's, but I do have the Renns and I heard they are pretty similar.

Your post mentions that you checked the pressure before the ride (32psi), you pushed, youchecked the pressure again (32psi). If the pressure was the same, sounds like maybe the tire just wasn't heated up, yet. Shoulda gone up to around 35-36 fully warmed. And you mentioned they did okay at the track.

I'm a race group kinda guy too. images/icons/wink.gif And unless I make a mistake upon entry (sometimes shit happens images/icons/rolleyes.gif )I'm on the throttle and have the weight transferred properly.

Unless I'm experiencing probs like Moss described or my susp is causing the issue...I guess I'm one of the riders who doesn't fit the Sportec program. Right now I have zero confidence in that front tire even though it performed well for 1 trackday.

The thought of having 2 sets of wheels for track and street is very appealing though. graemlins/idea.gif