That's right kids, you can now have one shield that will be usable in both sunny and dark conditions.

Fog City has developed a new fog proof insert that has a mild green tint to it that when in brighter light, will turn to a dark cobalt blue in 4 seconds. These new inserts will be called Hyper Optiks. They are photochromatic and will return to original light green tint when removed from light source.

Only available through the creators and distributors at Gearbox, Int'l. Also the exclusive distributors of Suomy. You can call 800-799-9444 and ask for a dealer near you. Tell them the Lizards sent you.

How 'bouts a link?

THis is what I found....website is not up yet, but there are contact #s......

http://www.gearboxinternational.com/

Lizard,

How are you connected to GBI? Dealer, personal friend to Rick, etc.? You always seem to have the inside scoop.

I'm a sponsored racer and a sales rep.

I just am taking it upon myself to spread the word about these helmets and Gearbox, Int'l.

I will be at the track for any racer with Suomy to act like Arai does with their racers. I will service helmets and get the riders needed accessories like tear-offs, shields, helmet pieces, etc for their helmets.

With the new Spec1R coming, it is going to be a mark left in the industry by the guys at Suomy. It's been too many years with not enough helmet education and low end companies like HJC, Vega, Fulmer and the like. It's time for a top end helmet to come into play and Suomy is doing a wonderful job.

The guys at Gearbox are super huge enthusiasts and have a passion for roadracing. With their passion, comes a concern with proper safety regarding helmets and the like. Rick is the designer/originator of Fog City and he constantly is coming up with new ideas.

That's why my concern with advertising special discounted prices. It destroys the value of any product. Perceived value is seen in a product if anywhere you go, it is the same price. Sure, accross the counter or on the phone deals excluded, but when people advertise low prices just to sell a few units, it kills the dealers' margins. What the general public doesn't realize is that if a dealer makes 34% +, they are lucky. Companies like Chapparel and big catalog guys buy in huge quantities and get a better price. The normal dealers cannot buy thousands of helmets/year and therefore, their profit margins are lower.

That's why Arai is doing what they are now. They realize their dealer network is dying. Now, Arai is back peddling and are upsetting the consumers. Of course, if Arai is such a great company and their helmets are regarded as the best, why do people bitch because they can't get it as cheap at their dealer as they can at Chapparel? Now that Arai has seen this problem and are discouraging mail order to avoid discounting, people are bitching. If Arai would have done what companies like Oakley and now Suomy do with only allowing advertised retail pricing, they would have been OK. People would have perceived the value of the helmet and not bitched at the price listed at retail.

The industry is bad enough when all the Japanese dealers have to compete on price rather than value through customer service and mechanical expertise. Shouldn't you not have to worry as a dealer about how much stuff costs or should you as a dealer worry more about customer service?

Sounds like you are the man to talk to at the WERA weekends. I just picked up a Suomy. If you are a rep, then I may say hello when I hit the Suomy booth this weekend to see Rick. I'm be up there with Wintex Leathers.

How much are they? And are they available for all full face helmets?

yeh i got suomy ,ben bonstram , love it..i just cruised over to suomy's web site..they finally redid there site..awsome..take a look at there shit.. www.suomy.com (http://www.suomy.com)

Lizard,

I like how your expressed your opinion on value versus discounting, but I have to question a couple of things. The dealer network that Arai believes to be dying is not a creation of Arai or necessarily due to the mail order guys discounting. I believe it is caused by dealer gouging. For example, the few full service dealers in town that carry Arai list them for full retail. That's just fine. Places such as cycle gear which is not going to be hurt by the policy change, list them for a discount, granted not what the mail order offers, but a discount nonetheless. For the end consumer, Full service places get the bad wrap without even picking up the phone. Why? Their prices are ridiculous, they have poor service for the most part, and don't apoligize for their prices. Yes they need to make their money, but they need to provide some reason why I should spend it there.

I come from a sales background, where the competition was intense and the product though in high demand was also highly valued. Who made the most sales? Discount or Service? Well service of course. That's all people want for their dollar. In turn, that's also value. So for Arai to build value, they need to provide service, FIRST, then ask for more money and cut out the discounter.

In the meantime, I'll spend my loot carefully since I'm helping myself at the dealership....


P

Thanks for that link...but F*!@ that web site. I'm not looking for entertainment...I just want to check out their helmets, but I have to sit around waiting while all that other crap goes on...including that crappy music playing.

Paul-

Actually, Arai did create the situation that is going on now. Price gouging beacause of selling at retail?????

Look at companies like Oakley - they create a dealer network where glasses are advertised and sold at the retail price. If they find dealers selling at discounts, they will pull that dealer. Why? If a company has a product that is the top of the food chain in technology, materials, build, etc., then perceived value should be viewed through these things - not whether you can get it cheaper here vs. there.

Arai let the discounting be ok and now they have realized that it lessens the perceived value of their helmets. "I can get it cheaper at this shop or this catalog vs. what you guys are selling it at". The dealer then has to sale price the helmet to sell more helmets.

If Arai would have created a system like Oakley has, then the price of an Arai would be listed the same no matter where you bought it. Then, you would go to a shop that caters more to service for the customer. Instead, people actually buy at a dealer or catalog to get the cheapest price and will go to the shop that gives the best service when that shop isn't where they bought from due to the fact they were higher priced. That's BS. Customers expect cheap prices. Everyone here says Arai is the greatest and yet in the same paragraph, they will bitch that the dealer down the street won't sell it as cheap as they can get in a catalog. Low perceived value.

Of course, what goes on from over the counter is a different story. Friendships, loyal customers, big dollar spending, etc play differently, but the dealers fight enough vs. the catalogs and there are very few companies who actually care about their dealer network by making listed retail the selling price of their product.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lizard 1:
I'm a sponsored racer and a sales rep.

I just am taking it upon myself to spread the word about these helmets and Gearbox, Int'l.

I will be at the track for any racer with Suomy to act like Arai does with their racers. I will service helmets and get the riders needed accessories like tear-offs, shields, helmet pieces, etc for their helmets.

With the new Spec1R coming, it is going to be a mark left in the industry by the guys at Suomy. It's been too many years with not enough helmet education and low end companies like HJC, Vega, Fulmer and the like. It's time for a top end helmet to come into play and Suomy is doing a wonderful job.

The guys at Gearbox are super huge enthusiasts and have a passion for roadracing. With their passion, comes a concern with proper safety regarding helmets and the like. Rick is the designer/originator of Fog City and he constantly is coming up with new ideas.

That's why my concern with advertising special discounted prices. It destroys the value of any product. Perceived value is seen in a product if anywhere you go, it is the same price. Sure, accross the counter or on the phone deals excluded, but when people advertise low prices just to sell a few units, it kills the dealers' margins. What the general public doesn't realize is that if a dealer makes 34% +, they are lucky. Companies like Chapparel and big catalog guys buy in huge quantities and get a better price. The normal dealers cannot buy thousands of helmets/year and therefore, their profit margins are lower.

That's why Arai is doing what they are now. They realize their dealer network is dying. Now, Arai is back peddling and are upsetting the consumers. Of course, if Arai is such a great company and their helmets are regarded as the best, why do people bitch because they can't get it as cheap at their dealer as they can at Chapparel? Now that Arai has seen this problem and are discouraging mail order to avoid discounting, people are bitching. If Arai would have done what companies like Oakley and now Suomy do with only allowing advertised retail pricing, they would have been OK. People would have perceived the value of the helmet and not bitched at the price listed at retail.

The industry is bad enough when all the Japanese dealers have to compete on price rather than value through customer service and mechanical expertise. Shouldn't you not have to worry as a dealer about how much stuff costs or should you as a dealer worry more about customer service?<hr></blockquote>

Please don't FEED US A BUNCH OF MSRP BULLSHIT OK??

...Market forces should never be manipulated to favor either side of trading whether you are a dealer or a consumer .... !! The market for anything should be made FREE TO TRADE and FREE TO COMPETE as it goes. Stepping in to try and control what you consider to be "Retail" -- another word for DICTATING PRICE --- especially in the case of HELMETS etc. which are made easily with COMMON MATERIALS is CRIMINAL and should not be allowed to into a free economy such as that of the U.S.

This is your way maintaining HIGH PRICES that us consumers are TRAPPED into paying, especially on safety related items....

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: migz123 ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lizard 1:
Paul-

Actually, Arai did create the situation that is going on now. Price gouging beacause of selling at retail?????

Look at companies like Oakley - they create a dealer network where glasses are advertised and sold at the retail price. If they find dealers selling at discounts, they will pull that dealer. Why? If a company has a product that is the top of the food chain in technology, materials, build, etc., then perceived value should be viewed through these things - not whether you can get it cheaper here vs. there.

Arai let the discounting be ok and now they have realized that it lessens the perceived value of their helmets. "I can get it cheaper at this shop or this catalog vs. what you guys are selling it at". The dealer then has to sale price the helmet to sell more helmets.

If Arai would have created a system like Oakley has, then the price of an Arai would be listed the same no matter where you bought it. Then, you would go to a shop that caters more to service for the customer. Instead, people actually buy at a dealer or catalog to get the cheapest price and will go to the shop that gives the best service when that shop isn't where they bought from due to the fact they were higher priced. That's BS. Customers expect cheap prices. Everyone here says Arai is the greatest and yet in the same paragraph, they will bitch that the dealer down the street won't sell it as cheap as they can get in a catalog. Low perceived value.

Of course, what goes on from over the counter is a different story. Friendships, loyal customers, big dollar spending, etc play differently, but the dealers fight enough vs. the catalogs and there are very few companies who actually care about their dealer network by making listed retail the selling price of their product.<hr></blockquote>


The Above is more MANUFACTURER BULLSHIT that eventually hurts the consumer --- DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS BULLSHIT!!!!...

PRICE MANIPULATION eventually hurts CONSUMERS - Period.

You should be kicked off the board for spreading your communist, monopolistic & GREEDY ways in here.

Manufacturers should MANUFACTURE PRODUCTS...if people WANT IT, they will pay....to go outside of Manufacturing and into the act of CONTROLING PRICES and TRYING TO CHANGE PERCEPTION is MANIPULATIVE....the forces of SUPPLY and DEMAND issues within the market should be free and not MANIPULATED by criminals like you people.

Please take your bullshit somewhere else as there are some of us in here that YOU CANNOT FOOL.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: migz123 ]</p>

I have to strongly agree with migz123 on this issue. Value is ultimately determined by the consumer. Your preceived value statements only benefit your commission and ultimate sales revenue. Once product quality and materials are matched, pricing is the ultimate factor. Thus the larger discounts available for larger resellers. What is wrong with them passing the discount on to the consumer. Some consumers base their buying decisions on Benefits, some on features and others on value. That's why we all have choices. Thank God for Capitalism and America. Please do not confuse branding to commercialize the issue with your anecdotal to Oakley. You might be able to sell water to a fish but I'm no squid. I'm sure if your sponsorship came with a price tag your tune would be different. Your opinions hold a lot of bias and the conflict of interest do not weigh your statements very well.

I was once a sales rep and if you preach for long enough you start to believe what you preach.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: DragonBoy ]</p>

Dude, back off a bit. Calm down. If you were a dealer, you would understand what I am saying. I have ten years in the motorcycle retail environment plus another 8 in the motorcycle racing part of the industry and have been a direct sales rep for going on 5 yrs. and I can tell you that these butt wads that run mail order kill the dealers that barely are lucky to get 30% margins. Take this for example. You order a helmet which retails for $200. The dealer pays $140 for it. Now, that dealer buys in at say 25 units. A mail order place buys in at 250+ helmets and gets a price of $110. They go and sell the helmet for $150. That's a bit less than 30%, but the dealer has a guy like you come in the store bitchin' that they are ripping people off and want the dealer to match prices. Guess what? If he sells it to you at $150, he makes less than 10%. Of course, guys like you don't care, right?

I just think that buyers do not realize what the dealers are up against. They are constantly trying to get customers in the door and they do a good job, but a lot of people price shop. They are getting people in there that love the shop, come in on Saturdays and drink coffee and tell stories, get their bikes worked on there, etc., but they will still go down to the next town or go to the web and buy products from somewhere else just to save $50.

I've seen a customer price us on a motorcycle and he then priced around. We gave him a smoking deal for our area and prided ourselves (and, he agreed) that we had a killer service and parts department. We saw him later come to the shop riding the same style bike he had bought somewhere else. He drove, round trip, over 100 miles to save $50!!!!! It cost him that much to drive and eat vs. getting it from us. But, in his mind, he saved $50.

Sorry you don't understand what I am saying. But, you calling out names and saying I am a communist, etc. is total BS.

What I find funny is that people like you argue and yet do not understand things you type. Monopoly idea? Dude, this isn't a deal where a company patents everything and no else can produce the same type of product, therefore leading to the fact that said company controls the ENTIRE market for that particular product. That's a monopoly. Trying to establish a retail standard is not a monopoly based idea. It establishes the idea that people will pay for (demand) product if they feel it is a worthy purchase. Retail standards make it so that customers can buy it anywhere at the same price no matter what and they choose where they want to spend their money. Basically, you'll go to the dealer or web site you feel has treated you the best or the place that has an environment that makes you feel good.

You are real tough on this site and living on the other side of the country. Don't name call and offend people here. Do it to my e-mail address or private message. Smarter people like those of Paul above should debate. I don't say I am always right, but in a good debate, one can easily be pursuaded to change views after learning something from someone else. That's what these forums are for. If you are going to get pissed because you don't feel that a company should set a retail price and expect to get it, what do you feel an Arai or like helmet costs? Should they all be priced at whatever YOU feel is fair? "I think that since they use shit that I can get at AutoZone, that I should only have to pay $50-$100 for a good helmet. Screw what those companies pay for R&D, advertising, payrole, boxes, etc. They only have $25 in each helmet - we consumers always get screwed". Yeah, right.

If you don't get it, just move along, name calling is not needed.

No personal slander is intended. I understand that businesses need to make a profit, but as it states MSRP is just Manufacture SUGGESTED Retail Price. I'm sorry that your shop got dicked, but that was a consumer that based his or her decision on what was best for them. But shops might as well include a break-down in their price tags that includes commission, overhead, breaks, lunches, medical benefits and so on in order to further justify charging a consumer MSRP. Monopolies are a whole different issue.

This topic was put on the board to discuss and it would not be fair unless both sides are able to share their views.

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: DragonBoy ]

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: DragonBoy ]</p>

It's called COMPETITION, my friend, you will have to live with it, try to compete or die off...

Like I said, there are some of us in here that you cannot fool by taking a stab at the market's competitive environment - there is no way around it, it is there, and attempting to manipulate Supply, Demand and People's Perception will only prolong your agonies.

There are "some" of us in here that make a living studying market forces YOU will never understand and have studied supply and demand market data that goes back to the South Sea Bubbles in the 1700, and let me tell you this: YOU HAVE NO CHANCE.

So please take your dealer BS out with you and get away from trying to fool people in here by trying to change their perceptions and coaxing them into paying higher prices for something available for LESS elsewhere...

It's as simple as that.

Alllrighty then...

I do sometimes order stuff online... in fact, I recently ordered a nickel-and-dime part from Ron Ayers because they sold it for about 60% of the cost that my local $uzuki dealer quoted me... on the other hand, there's a local shop that supports local racers nearby (SB Motorsports in Tacoma, check em out if you're in the area) and I just dropped a wad of cash on tires and riding gear there that I could have bought online and saved $40 or $50 bucks on. Bottom line for me is, I'm not gonna pay a dealer twice as much for my original Suzuki parts if I don't have to... but for other items, I don't mind paying a little extra if it means that my favorite local shop will be around the next time I wanna go sip coffee and do some tire-kicking. ESPECIALLY if it means that they will have the stuff in stock so I can go and play with it/try it on before I buy it. I like to support the local shop because he's the guy who's there for me when I need a breathing, knowledgeable person instead of a price list on a web-page.

As for Arai and the discount warehouse/online sales debacle, well... maybe I'm too simple to understand this whole thing, but it seems like if the mfgr just made *ALL* the distributors pay the same price then that would get them out of their current mess, no? The guys who wanna discount prices to sell more units can still do it, but the disparity wouldn't be so much, and it wouldn't make me feel so bad for spending a *little* (10 - 15% instead of 30-35%) extra to support my local shop.

ANYway, I didn't mean to take sides or add any fuel, just thought I'd offer my $0.02

OH yeah, and that fogcity laminate sounds like daBOMB ...I hope SB MOtorsports is gonna order some. images/icons/smile.gif

[ 02-19-2002: Message edited by: FastCat ]</p>

I might as well throw my 2 cents in on this one... I personally would rather buy parts and such locally so I can have it that very minute, however 9 times out of 10 no one in the area has the part in stock. They have to order it from their distributor, who may or may not have to order it from the manufacturer. All told, 5-7 days for that part to get in my hands. So that's 5-7 days of waiting, at least 2 trips to the shop and maybe it gets there in the time frame they told me, maybe it doesn't. So add to that another possible trip to the shop. Then there's their price, which is usually quite a bit higher than anything I can find online and add to that higher price whatever the local sales tax happens to be (locally it is anywhere from 7-8.75% depending on the area). Now try asking them if they price match and it's like you just offered to buy their daughter. Then you get the standard "Sure, we price match anything local."... "So you won't price match any internet pricing?" ... "If we did that we'd go out of business!!!" At that point if there is no offer of some kind of drop in price, I'm gone... Now why in the world would I deal with this when I can order it online, usually save a pretty good chunk of loot and still get the part in my hand (delievered to my doorstep as a matter of fact, which I have been tracking the entire time so I know exactly where it is at any given time). I hate to say it, but the small shops either have to come up with some better customer service, some kind of gimmick or they aren't going to last... I work entirely too hard for my money to pay too much for anything. These guys have to realize that most things aren't a regional market anymore since the internet has become such a powerful tool to buy and sell. It's a global market these days and you either have to adapt and overcome or pull down the shingle and see if Mickey D's is hiring... I will however pay a little more for some things if the shop has stellar customer service (from the owner down to the guy who sweeps the floor) and either gets me my things when they say they will or call me immediately when they find out there is a delay.

Just an example... Today I went out pricing a full M4 exhaust for my bike. I already had the lowest price I could find on the internet (about $730 shipped). The best price I found locally was $794 with tax. $64 is a good bit of loot to throw at a local guy just because he has a family to feed or whatever.....

Not to take sides, or throw any bad vibes...I do shop at my local M/C shop..why, cause when I NEED work done, that I'm not capable of performing, I want someone whom I trust, and I know has the knowledge to do good work, as my machanic does..I've bought every thing from brake lines to tiers, suspension parts, to protective gear..and yes I could have spent alot less $$ on the internet for most of these parts..but the 1 question remains...who's gonna install some of these parts, that I'm not able to..i.e. all my suspension stuff, and setting it all up..as you can see, theres a + and - to all of this. I want them there, when I need them, a good shop will survive, only if they are supported by riders like US..if everything was purchased via the internet..who would put yur tires on for ya.??? They also do things for me, without a charge..granted they are very small things, but free nun the less..So I can see part of Lizards point of view, not all of it, but part..I too use to be a rep for a M/C dist...I worked in a Yam. dealership, I raced.. now I just ride..but..I want the best service I can get, and the internet, even tho..I have ordered parts on it, they were small in comparision to the things I bought at my local shop..my opinion is..both the internet, and your local dealer/shop have their place..and we need both of them..There is another simple easy way around all this pricing bs..and everyone would benifit....think about it..

Also, I wouldn't drive 20 mi. to save 50.00, much less a 100.. images/icons/grin.gif

[ 02-20-2002: Message edited by: Hammer 4 ]</p>

Can I play too? images/icons/grin.gif

I've been car shopping lately. I went to one dealer and was quoted $21,600 (MSRP) for the car with $15,000 for my current car (which is a premium model and cost $33,000 2 years ago).

An online dealer would do me the same car (even had them in stock) for $19,700 with $18,600 for my current car.

Hmm, I wonder who will get my business?

MSRP is a con. The Ford Focus in the US is around $13,500, but in the UK the MSRP on the exact same model is $18,500. Market forces are now beginning to drive the msrp down, but the manufacturers are fighting as hard as they can to keep their monopoly.

Maybe Ford Europe want to push the Focus as a premium vehicle, LOL. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Well, there has been some obviously great things brought up here about the whole retail standards deal. Again, I know that Migz is a brain child of marketing and yet seems to not get my point. Above are some killer examples for both sides. What I am trying to say is shown above in both ways.

One, there are guys that will pay a little more for product vs. internet or shopping around because they are loyal to a shop that treats them right. Good shops try to do that. However, Migz doesn't seem in his infinite wisdom about marketing that dealers do not inventory as much product as a catalog/web warehouse does and therefore doesn't buy at such a discount as they get. Thus, they have to get a bit more closer to retail to even make back the costs of shipping. That M4 exhaust? A dealer pays freight on the one system where a catalog/web site usually buys enough systems to avoid freight. ever paid to ship an exhaust? That $60 over the price of internet is a cost that is closer to MSRP to try and recoupe freight. Freight would be around $30 and in the grand scheme of things, they were really only $30 off and still lost the sale.

Secondly, there are a bunch of folks here saying that they shop around and don't care how loyal or good a dealer is, they will buy the product they want at the cheapest price they can get. Why have accessories in your shop when no matter how good a customer service you have, you will not get sales unless you pull your pants down. Again, Migz spent too much time in marketing classes and not enough time in reading 101. I am not a dealer. NOT is a word used to state I do not have any ties with a dealership other than the one who sponsors me. I just feel that customers sometimes forget that the dealer is the one who can get the product you want, help you decide through their experiences whether or not it is a good product, help you to get the product installed and will help you at any point you have a problem. Of course there are terrible shops out there and surely people have a bad taste about shops, but when a shop goes the extra length to cator to the customer evrytime they come in and yet no matter what service they offer AFTER the sale, people will still buy somewhere else to save $50. However, those same people will bitch that the dealer after they have bought a product somewhere else won't help them to install or cover a warranty issue. They are also the same people who bitch that dealers rape customers on the price of service without knowing why service departments charge what they do and the fact that the service department struggles to break even.

I think this is a great thread for dealers to read. There have been great calls from both sides of the fence and it can help those shops out, maybe. However, being an arogant ass and calling out names and labels while putting themselves on the top of the food chain in terms of so called "book educated" is total bullshit. Again, debate this topic. It's cool. I love reading inputs from both sides. I think anyone with a point has to be open to both sides - just keep personal feelings inside and type your retort; not what you feel about that person.

Comments are inserted below in <<<>>>>>>


<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lizard 1:
Well, there has been some obviously great things brought up here about the whole retail standards deal. Again, I know that Migz is a brain child of marketing and yet seems to not get my point. Above are some killer examples for both sides. What I am trying to say is shown above in both ways.

One, there are guys that will pay a little more for product vs. internet or shopping around because they are loyal to a shop that treats them right. Good shops try to do that. However, Migz doesn't seem in his infinite wisdom about marketing that dealers do not inventory as much product as a catalog/web warehouse does and therefore doesn't buy at such a discount as they get. Thus, they have to get a bit more closer to retail to even make back the costs of shipping.

>>>>>>>Errr....no chit......boy first time I heard of that images/icons/rolleyes.gif <<<<<<<<<<<<<

That M4 exhaust? A dealer pays freight on the one system where a catalog/web site usually buys enough systems to avoid freight. ever paid to ship an exhaust? That $60 over the price of internet is a cost that is closer to MSRP to try and recoupe freight. Freight would be around $30 and in the grand scheme of things, they were really only $30 off and still lost the sale.

>>>>>>>>>Consumers can do this BASIC MATH....$100 bucks plus tax at the shop versus 95 bucks plus shipping elsewhere....which comes out cheaper...or there are the other factors...this is not that hard is it? Consumers need to have a CHOICE<<<<<<

Secondly, there are a bunch of folks here saying that they shop around and don't care how loyal or good a dealer is, they will buy the product they want at the cheapest price they can get. Why have accessories in your shop when no matter how good a customer service you have, you will not get sales unless you pull your pants down.

>>>>>>>>Yes, fair is fair. Consumers have been taking it where the sun don't shine for decades and decades since industrialization - so fair is fair - thank God for the internet.<<<<<<<<<<

Again, Migz spent too much time in marketing classes and not enough time in reading 101.

>>>>Yes I do recall having attended Marketing Classes about 15 years ago.....sorry I'm not a college kid....<<<<<<<<<<

I am not a dealer. NOT is a word used to state I do not have any ties with a dealership other than the one who sponsors me. I just feel that customers sometimes forget that the dealer is the one who can get the product you want,

>>>>>The "dealer can get the product I want?" ... ....I can't get it myself? C'mon man....<<<<<<<<<<<


....help you decide through their experiences whether or not it is a good product,

>>>>>>Help me decide throught their experiences? Oh you mean HALF the time, right? Where the other half can be filled with LIES - because many HAVE NO experience in the product I am looking for, Right? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

help you to get the product installed and will help you at any point you have a problem.

>>>>>>>>Will help me at ANY point? Hm?<<<<<<<<<<


Of course there are terrible shops out there and surely people have a bad taste about shops, but when a shop goes the extra length to cator to the customer evrytime they come in and yet no matter what service they offer AFTER the sale, people will still buy somewhere else to save $50. However, those same people will bitch that the dealer after they have bought a product somewhere else won't help them to install or cover a warranty issue.

>>>>>Are you being "Balanced" here? .... Are you sure about what you are talking about? That's funny, just yesterday my dealer told me that clip-type connectors on O-Ring chains "NEVER COME OFF"....maybe that was just a fluke ? A fluke that can only COST ME MY LIFE right?<<<<<<


They are also the same people who bitch that dealers rape customers on the price of service without knowing why service departments charge what they do and the fact that the service department struggles to break even.

>>>So why stay in Business? ...no wonder they "don't care" MANY times....and no wonder a lot more is done than is SUPPOSED TO BE done...<<<<<<<<<

I think this is a great thread for dealers to read.

>>>>This is a better thread for CONSUMERS to read<<<<<<


There have been great calls from both sides of the fence and it can help those shops out, maybe. However, being an arogant ass and calling out names and labels while putting themselves on the top of the food chain in terms of so called "book educated" is total bullshit. Again, debate this topic. It's cool. I love reading inputs from both sides. I think anyone with a point has to be open to both sides - just keep personal feelings inside and type your retort; not what you feel about that person.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well I'm sorry --- as you can see, I am quite passionate on topics that involve my FREEDOM, my LIFE, my MONEY and the ability to have always have A CHOICE....that is the american way....I am quite certain you would defend those too....I have lived in countries were people DON'T have choices....where markets are manipulated and people are trapped FOR A LIFETIME into paying high prices --- while the U.S. is nowhere near that kind of poverties....I sure wouldn't like to see our freedoms and choices get infringed upon here. I am certain you wouldn't too.

I am thankful for the internet and forums like these....where I can be told I can get "so and so" for "so and so" price...and make sure you "so and so" ..... Because without these communications...advertisements and COMPETITION among retailers... I am sure I would STUCK AT THE MERCY OF THE DEALER for a whole lifetime.....

...That is one thing I am no longer willing to take.

Would you want the same?

Moving to prevent advertising of Better Prices is unamerican and impedes on consumers freedoms of choice<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

<hr></blockquote>

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: migz123 ]</p>

QUOTE:"One, there are guys that will pay a little more for product vs. internet or shopping around because they are loyal to a shop that treats them right. Good shops try to do that. However, Migz doesn't seem in his infinite wisdom about marketing that dealers do not inventory as much product as a catalog/web warehouse does and therefore doesn't buy at such a discount as they get. Thus, they have to get a bit more closer to retail to even make back the costs of shipping.

RESPONSE:>>>>>>>Errr....no chit......boy first time I heard of that <<<<<<<<<<<<<"

What? You are now agreeing that the dealer buys at a higher dealer cost and that is one of the reasons for the closer to retail price???? Why are you arguing here?


QUOTE:"Secondly, there are a bunch of folks here saying that they shop around and don't care how loyal or good a dealer is, they will buy the product they want at the cheapest price they can get. Why have accessories in your shop when no matter how good a customer service you have, you will not get sales unless you pull your pants down.

RESPONSE:>>>>>>>>Yes, fair is fair. Consumers have been taking it where the sun don't shine for decades and decades since industrialization - so fair is fair - thank God for the internet.<<<<<<<<<<"

Dude, you have some serious issues where you must have been burnt by a shop or two. What you think is that all shops rob and rape when in actuality, there are many killer shops around. You just need to sometimes be an educated consumer to avoid some pitfalls and choose the best shop. Sure, there are some bad guys out there, but I really don't see too many. I am sure there are guys/gals on this board that can attest to them having some absolutely great shops around. Quit bashing shops when it's really a situation where you have gotten burnt and can't seem or know what to look for in a good shop.


QUOTE:"I am not a dealer. NOT is a word used to state I do not have any ties with a dealership other than the one who sponsors me. I just feel that customers sometimes forget that the dealer is the one who can get the product you want,

RESPONSE:>>>>>The "dealer can get the product I want?" ... ....I can't get it myself? C'mon man....<<<<<<<<<<<"

Once again, you are using words selectively and not wholly. I went on to add to this sentence that there are things a dealer can give you that you cannot get from the web. It went on from there. I encourage you to let up on you inner rage and read on before you peck at the words to use in your favor. I NEVER said the consumer can't get it themselves. READ.

Migz, you are a very bitter man and it sounds like you have been around the world which leads me to believe you have experienced a ton of stuff. I totally respect that. But, it also sounds as if you might be an older guy who is sorta stuck in his ways. Shops for the most part are honest and try hard to make a buck. The whole Service Dept. arguement you are causing is so packed with the fact you are ill aware. A shop doesn't open for service. They are selling motorcycles, accessories, AND service. It is just that in most shops throughout the US, they have Service Departments that are lucky to break even. Of course, if that's all they did, surely they would have gone out of business or are rapidly approaching that stage. However, most shops recognize that buyers of bikes need service and therefore they have a Service Dept. In the end, they make up for the losses or break evens of the Service Dept. through sales and accessories.

You are arguing just to argue. I agree that we all have the right to shop and buy at the prices we think fair. But, I was just stating that it's too bad **and you are by far one of these people** that there are consumers who don't find a shop they like and if they do, they still show no loyalty to that shop. If the shop rocks and they are super great people, I will buy from them without expecting a discount and will be willing to pay a bit more for things to keep my business there. You're the kinda guy who goes into a shop and while they enter the price, you ask if you can get a better deal. Guess what? Those people who continuously come into shops and buy, will get discounts without even asking. Most shops will enter the good guy customers at employee or just above cost. Guys like you never get to that stage with a shop.

Hell, it is probably your attitude. If you are oozing the fact that you are bitter towards shops when you walk in, you probably already hate it and won't listen to what they say. We race all throughout the US and have on many, many occasions gone into shops. Most are super, but sure, there are many that have sucked. But, there have been maybe two shops we've gone in that suck. I remember going into this super small shop and ended up in there for three hours. It was a KTM only shop and we needed a cable for our pit scooter, so we stopped. This guy was so cool at the counter that he gave a tour, showed us his bikes, looked for a cable, found one that was close, but he told us we would be better off to find another shop that would be more likely to have what we want. He gave us directions and even called!! After we went to the other place which was really cool, we went back and bought a couple of T's for my boy and gave him a couple of passes for the weekend at the track. Sure, that guy was a bit out of the ordinary, but I bet if you went in there, you'd ask for a discount, had a bad attitude and would have been pissed that he wasted your time. Again, you have issues.

I am done here. I hope everyone who reads this understands what I am saying. I will no longer respond to Migzsy here because he's looking for an arguement and is not using thought out information, but rather is twisting words to fuel his inner anger and his passion to rid the world of the deadly "DEALERS".

Also, remember the whole original reason for the thread - Fog City Face Shields are now available in an insert that changes tint when the light changes. Check with your DEALER or scope out the bigger WEB SITES for more info and the BEST PRICES.

....your "bitter old man theory" is wrong (again), and your stories are heartwarming but that's not the issue....

The issue is: People/Dealers/Retailers should be FREE to ADVERTISE LOWER PRICES-- period. Your attempts to prevent this LIMITS OUR CHOICES as consumers.....which in turn PUTS US IN THE MERCY OF A SMALL AMOUNT OF DEALERS...dries up liquidity and access to PRODUCTS IN DEMAND and eventually DRIVES PRICES UP. Eventually everyone suffers, but not before consumers are cleaned out.

That's the issue - and your argument is a weak one.

This is a consumer board....please don't spread that Dealer BS here....you are the weakest link.....GOODBYE.

[ 02-21-2002: Message edited by: migz123 ]</p>

I'm sorry is someone speaking? I thought I heard voices. Must be my stomach growling. Anyone have real input to offer? Anyone? Bueller?

I'll continue buying most of my gear through the internet. Even after buying a $8300 bike from the local dealer he wanted $280 for a set of 207s, that's not including mounting. I can get them online for $200 and pay the dealer just $35 for mounting them. Saving me nearly $100.

I don't see why the dealer can't buy 250 helmets and get the $110 rate. Hell, I'd buy from them in a heartbeat if they offer the same price and actually knew what they were trying to sell. Most local shops in Atlanta, you have to ask 3-4 people there before you find someone who knows their ass from their head. They don't know crap about the bikes there selling, yeah the 02 GSXR 600 is faster than your 01 GSXR 750; I have no clue if Arai uses two different shell designs for the Quantum helmet and I don't have time to find out for you; if you want to try on that new KBC VR1 helmet in the medium size, you're going to have to order and pay for it first (they only had 5 large ones in stock); yeah, the PCII will make 20hp for your bike and you can use it on your buddy's bike as well (removable after tuning bike); these Dunlop 204s are just as good as the 207s (same price too); you're going to need a jet kit for that full exhaust on your 01 GSXR 750 (different dealer); etc.

Yes, dealers are in business to make money, last time I check every business is wanting to make money. I shopped around for months for my 01 750. Local dealers think their shit is made of gold or something. Went to the local dealer, RFM, 3 times and was quoted 10.2 OTD. Last sales person was pissed that I interrupted his lunch while I was shopping. Sent them a nasty email and got $9200 OTD. Talked to the sales manager and he said they were changing the way they do business, they want to sell their bikes cheaper. They are tired of losing business to out of state dealers. His new policy was to sell many bikes for less profit on each bike to make more customers happy. Less profit per bike times more bikes sold = same profit in total as before or more.

I don't see why I have to pay a local dealer $30 for a set of swingarm spools I can easily get online for $15 shipped. I work hard for my money and I'm going to get the most I can for my buck. You're probably getting your gear for near cost since you're a racer and they sponsor you. Try getting hit with full retail and let us know your new feelings. If the dealers are tired of losing money from lack of sales then they should take the imitative and hire competent employees to provide better service and lower their prices (through buying larger quantities). Nothing is keeping them from doing the same thing the mail order companies are doing. In fact, some dealers sell via the internet as well. I would love to buy from a local shop and keep my money locally, but it's not going to happen unless they get their heads out of their ass.

I did the same thing with my car and saved $4000. $4000 is a lot of cash to me. Local dealers wouldn't negotiate, so I went elsewhere. MSRP is BS.

When I hear dealers or others complain how the internet sales are killing the dealers it just makes me sick.

Now, where do I see actual pics of this revolutionary, already over-priced, unavailable, dark shield gadget.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lizard 1:
I'm sorry is someone speaking? I thought I heard voices. Must be my stomach growling. Anyone have real input to offer? Anyone? Bueller?<hr></blockquote>

i definately have some REAL input to offer... all i have to say is, "FUCK suomy!!!!" images/icons/mad.gif

Hey Master, why don't you go to another thread if you don't like something? Dude, your whole "Fuck you" mentality is total Bull Shit. spread it somewhere else. And by the way, Suomy doesn't make the Fog City product. Once again, ignorant people speaking before they check shit out is really getting old. A bit comical, but still very old.

As far as buying internet vs. dealer. I understand that some dealers suck - I was just wanting to state that there are some super great dealers out there that unfortunately cannot buy 250 high end single brand helmets. If a dealer bought 250 Arais, 250 Suomys, and 250 Shoeis, they wouldn't be able to afford anything else in accessories. The hard facts are that most shops buy (for example) 400 Fulmers and 25 high end helmets (Arai, Suomy, Shoei). They do not typically carry 1:1 lower end vs. higher end.

I definately agree that buying where you feel the money is best spent is the thing to do. I just think dealers need to get educated to treat the customers better, but those that do, need to be able to afford to sell stuff to customers on an even key with the web/catalog guys.

Guys like Master and Migz (probably the same guy) probably go into a grocery store and instead of paying for the listed price of say, $1.99, they say "I think you are rippin' me off. The other grocery store downtown sells it for $1.60 - I'll give you $1.25 and that's it." "$3.99 for a McDonald's Big Mac meal? I can get a Big King meal at Burger King for $2.99 -I'll give you $2.00." Yeah, nobody bitches about those damn grocery stores or restaurants not being able to sell at competitors prices. Those Bastards... They funny, those silly guys, they is.

Did we ever get a price for these shields..? in the midst of all the hoopla..???? images/icons/grin.gif

Retails for $29.95. Should be out either now or shortly.

Might as well throw my opinion in here. Isn't capitalism based on general supply and demand principals? Consumers will find the best bang for their buck. I deal with a few of the guys that advertise on this board with excellent customer service, better than I get from most over the counter local dealers. Bottom line is if you cannot be competative you won't be in business. You have to get with the times, if your local dealer is complaining about sales tell him to throw together web site for internet sales to move more volume. I've spent about $35k in the last 4 years on bikes and accessories and usually find what I consider the best value for each one of those goods.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lizard 1:
Hey Master, why don't you go to another thread if you don't like something? Dude, your whole "Fuck you" mentality is total Bull Shit. spread it somewhere else. And by the way, Suomy doesn't make the Fog City product. Once again, ignorant people speaking before they check shit out is really getting old. A bit comical, but still very old.

As far as buying internet vs. dealer. I understand that some dealers suck - I was just wanting to state that there are some super great dealers out there that unfortunately cannot buy 250 high end single brand helmets. If a dealer bought 250 Arais, 250 Suomys, and 250 Shoeis, they wouldn't be able to afford anything else in accessories. The hard facts are that most shops buy (for example) 400 Fulmers and 25 high end helmets (Arai, Suomy, Shoei). They do not typically carry 1:1 lower end vs. higher end.

I definately agree that buying where you feel the money is best spent is the thing to do. I just think dealers need to get educated to treat the customers better, but those that do, need to be able to afford to sell stuff to customers on an even key with the web/catalog guys.

Guys like Master and Migz (probably the same guy) probably go into a grocery store and instead of paying for the listed price of say, $1.99, they say "I think you are rippin' me off. The other grocery store downtown sells it for $1.60 - I'll give you $1.25 and that's it." "$3.99 for a McDonald's Big Mac meal? I can get a Big King meal at Burger King for $2.99 -I'll give you $2.00." Yeah, nobody bitches about those damn grocery stores or restaurants not being able to sell at competitors prices. Those Bastards... They funny, those silly guys, they is.<hr></blockquote>

all i had to say was fuck suomy since YOU work there... i'll be sure to spread the suomy ban in the streets with all the fellow riders...

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lizard 1:
Hey Master, why don't you go to another thread if you don't like something? Dude, your whole "Fuck you" mentality is total Bull Shit. spread it somewhere else. And by the way, Suomy doesn't make the Fog City product. Once again, ignorant people speaking before they check shit out is really getting old. A bit comical, but still very old.

As far as buying internet vs. dealer. I understand that some dealers suck - I was just wanting to state that there are some super great dealers out there that unfortunately cannot buy 250 high end single brand helmets. If a dealer bought 250 Arais, 250 Suomys, and 250 Shoeis, they wouldn't be able to afford anything else in accessories. The hard facts are that most shops buy (for example) 400 Fulmers and 25 high end helmets (Arai, Suomy, Shoei). They do not typically carry 1:1 lower end vs. higher end.

I definately agree that buying where you feel the money is best spent is the thing to do. I just think dealers need to get educated to treat the customers better, but those that do, need to be able to afford to sell stuff to customers on an even key with the web/catalog guys.

Guys like Master and Migz (probably the same guy) probably go into a grocery store and instead of paying for the listed price of say, $1.99, they say "I think you are rippin' me off. The other grocery store downtown sells it for $1.60 - I'll give you $1.25 and that's it." "$3.99 for a McDonald's Big Mac meal? I can get a Big King meal at Burger King for $2.99 -I'll give you $2.00." Yeah, nobody bitches about those damn grocery stores or restaurants not being able to sell at competitors prices. Those Bastards... They funny, those silly guys, they is.<hr></blockquote>

Oh boy, look who is changing his story now....weren't you the one that said advertising lower prices destroys the market for products?

....Now you feel that buying "where you feel the money is best spent is the thing to do..." .... you make me laugh....and will probably continue to do so...

...You are giving me a buncha "keepers" here... graemlins/spit.gif

Oh, yah...thanks for your fast food analysis....boy that was great! ...Can't believe you spent the time to grace us with that well thought out analogy to $400 helmets and CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO ADVERTISE LOWER PRICES....That is definitely going into my collection images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Your public display of BULLSHIT continues to grow.

For the 2 illiterates - here ya go. First, my response about buying where you feel your money is best spent is not saying anything about advertisments pertaining to retail price. Secondly, you once again are twisting words without reading. Picking and choosing words to suit your personal tasks is evident of a lost dibate.

As far as Master saying "F" Suomy because I work there - go ahead. The people that really know me and our team know that I would do anything for anyone and feel I have more friends than enemies. Your group of friends need to realize I don't work at Gearbox nor am I a dealer. Again, knowledge is power and you two guys are a great example of ignorant buyers.

What's your take on Arai pulling from web sites and catalog sales to focus more on dealer relations? Do you think it's bullshit that the #1 company in the helmet industry with the #1 customer satisfaction is full of shit when they decided to stay with dealers vs. catalog/web sites? Are you going to say "F" Arai because I know people there too? Might as well. Might as well say "F" to a lot of companies in the Motorcyle Network, because I know a lot of people there and have heard many concerns pertaining to internet sales vs. the sag in dealer support of their brands. What you guys don't understand is quite large.

What I would suggest is to forget about all the name calling, bashing and word twisting and focus your attention on what matters in your life. Move on and realize you can't grasp what I am saying here. Maybe you do, but you surely have the inability to convey it here.

Why not do a witch hunt somewhere else? You obviously have not addressed the questions nor backed your aguements up. All that you seem to do is get pissed when I respond with factual info. Sure, the restaurant and grocery store scenerio is a little lame, but instead of a good retort, you bash what I say without a good debate. Of course, your response to that is (I'll save you some hunt and peck typing here...) "I am not going to waste my time arguing with you". Rather it would probably go like this:"Go Fuck yourself. That's a good one, I'll add that to my list why you suck. Heh, heh, pass me a beer - I'm going riding to tell the world that Suomy sucks." Whatever.

Just enlighten the board with your wisdom influenced response to the whole Arai deal. What says you about that? Take your time, we'll wait for the response. Of course, don't disappoint by leaving out any bashing and bitching you have towards me. Just leave the whole Suomy shit out and tell us about the Arai opinion. This should be good...

----------What's your take on Arai pulling from web sites and catalog sales to focus more on dealer relations?-----------

It's not going to work. The internet/open market is like a monster you cannot control. That's because both consumers and independent dealers/retailers world-round have an opportunity to get educated & commincate...which leads to price efficiency....the old market's best tool to keep prices high by keeping customers 'dumb' is no more. Arai's recent move to curb internet sales is a sad attempt to look for that control over pricing they once had....surely enough, they are feeling the effects of a new open market system that threatens the wide margins & lifestyles to which they and their wives have become accustomed....sadly enough, just like all preceding entities that have attempted to control price in an open market system, that would be like digging a deeper grave...the corresponding negative effects to such trend-bucking actions has been seen a million times before...as a company finds itself losing grasp of its hold, then rather than going with the flow, they choose to fight it....unfortunately, markets are not forgiving as a movie with a happy ending that we are so used to seeing....as a person in the retail business, you should know this first-hand...hopefully, Suomy (and this is my first comment on Suomy...) does not follow into the same pathetic attempt ....as I do love their helmets and have every intention of ordering the new Goorbergh....but perhaps the biggest reason why I am going with Suomy is a flat-out refusal to participate in Arai's market...it's not very complex....if Gearbox or Suomy has every intention of following in the footsteps of Arai, then unfortunately, I'll take my business elsewhere...maybe I won't buy and be happy with my current equipment....perhaps in another brand or even the used market, where price discovery is better, and buyers at high prices soon realize what price collapse means....eventually, this weakness makes its way right back to the Distributors and Manufacturers....why do you think Arai is acting so stupid? Responding to customer protests with sad little knotes of how a dealer helped his customer get a Medium instead of Large? Helmet fitting is not rocket science....how SAD....to those of us who have spent years studying trends, buyer/seller actions, reactions and psychologies....Arai's attempt to regain control is doomed to fail or eventually hurt them in one way or another, it's just a matter of time...

...If you think that Arai's recent actions are 'smart' being the number one retailer of helmets....you are in for a surprise....why do you think that NONE of the original 30 components of the Dow Jones Industrial Averages are no longer in business...mind you these were 30 of AMERICA's TOP COMPANIES my friend, 10,000 times bigger than Arai...they all have ceased to exist...I wonder why....oh yeah, now I remember...they all had one thing in common.....they didn't go with the tides of change...they fought it....

...Hopefully that is good enough for you...and that you have choked on your popcorn and gotten your fit with lack of homework over with...coz if you hadn't by now....you eventually WILL...if the past can't teach you, then the future will...and that's a guarantee....like I said, it's only a matter of time.

[ 03-04-2002, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: migz123 ]

Originally posted by Hammer 4:
Not to take sides, or throw any bad vibes...I do shop at my local M/C shop..why, cause when I NEED work done, that I'm not capable of performing, I want someone whom I trust, and I know has the knowledge to do good work, as my machanic does..<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thats is the exact same reason why I am willing to pay more for stuff at my dealer... So far, everytime I have needed them for something for my bike that I cant do, the bend over backwards to help me...
I think that that kinda service is worth the extra money that I pay for my oil, oil filter and such that I could get online cheaper...

Originally posted by Lizard 1:
That's right kids, you can now have one shield that will be usable in both sunny and dark conditions.

Fog City has developed a new fog proof insert that has a mild green tint to it that when in brighter light, will turn to a dark cobalt blue in 4 seconds. These new inserts will be called Hyper Optiks. They are photochromatic and will return to original light green tint when removed from light source.

Only available through the creators and distributors at Gearbox, Int'l. Also the exclusive distributors of Suomy. You can call 800-799-9444 and ask for a dealer near you. Tell them the Lizards sent you.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Migz-

My God, he is alive! BRAVO!!! Dude, great response and well said. I too believe Arai is doing too little, too late. However, they are changing and that may possibly strick a spark in their overall sales. You are right that in a nut shell they have let things get out of control and now that they wish to try and hold it where they want it - it could be their downfall.

Internet and low pricing is nothing new in the industry. The motorcycle industry is much different than that of say corp. America. We are far less effected by such things as recession, etc. However, when things do effect the industry, it can be huge. Therefore, I honestly think that more companies are going to change phylosophies and control advertised prices. This may be bad, it may be good. Think of it this way - if you were looking for a set of bodywork from company X and no matter where you look, it is advertised as the same exact price for current year stuff. This prompts the customer to buy where they feel is the best place to spend their money. That could be internet or a good dealer. What happens over a course of time is that maybe these bullshit dealers and lame lying web sites will die off. The industry as a whole becomes stronger and actually is able to focus on what really should matter and that's customer service. Throughout this whole debate, everyone seems to agree on either side that customer service is very important. If it is poor, we say screw the shop, they are ripping us off and if we like a shop and feel we get good service, we will continue to buy there and support them.

Migz, that was what I have been wanting to hear for about a million posts, it seems. I agree except with the corporate America analysis. Our industry is much smaller and has a tighter circle. It is not uncommon to talk with one company that knows someone from another. Therefore, the leading companies in the industry tend to lead others towards changes. That means that if a company like Arai who is the corner stone of the helmet industry decides to control how it is advertised in catalogs and web sites, I won't be surprised to see that trend start with other companies. It is change that is starting and whether good or bad, there are reasons that are not apparent on the surface. What retail customers are not seeing is that these companies are in meetings about the internet all the time and they are well aware of its value as well as its destructive abilities. If dealers go away, the internet will suffer. I know people will argue that's not true, but internet sales are still behind counter sales that occur at a dealership or accessories shop.

The newest trend in the market right now is just that - accessories only shops. No OEM sales, no mechanical services, etc., just accessories. It's here in Ohio at a company called Iron Pony. They are by far out selling any one of the OEM based dealers head to head on accessories. However, there are still a few companies that are buying as big, but they have catalogs or sell via internet. Now, if you take the counter sales away, Iron Pony rules. They will be doing catalog sales, but companies like Shoei, Arai, Suomy and others are inacting set rules to display retail prices only or what Shoei does and list call for prices. Again, this is a trend that seems to be going on and maybe it will work, maybe not.

What if the scenerio occurs that companies like Arai, Shoei, Suomy, HJC, Bell, Fox, Oakley, Joe Rocket, etc. go with advertise via web and catalog at retail only prices? If that occurs, what then? What will the customers do? Will they pursue internet still? I think so. It is still quick and easy and the companies usually have inventory in stock for easy delivery. But, if the dealers focus more on change in customer service and they have the same product at the same price, will people go there considering the only difference is the service?

Arai's doing it, Suomy's doing it, Shoei has been doing it, Oakley does it, Fox does it. These are some major big hitters in the industry. When and if more companies do the same thing, what will the customers do? These companies (Arai, Shoei, Suomy all fight in the same areas) are the top earners in their catagories. Of course, they all allow discounting prices for inventory that has been replaced with new colors and styles, but not otherwise. This change is occuring. Slowly, but surely.

Migz, let's keep the arguement going. Again, if it is a smart debate, I will easily change my mind set. Then again, maybe I will change yours a bit. I am seeing these other people chime in and I am understanding better. If we keep it going, who knows? Just use the same brain that you used in the last response.

Just out of curiousity...
Couldn't Arai have fixed this problem by just charging all thier distributors the same price? If they charge HelmetHarbor $200 for a lid, then charge the local dealership $200 for a lid. No bulk-buying discounts, or anything. Then HH.com would have to raise thier prices or take a hit, or the local dealer could lower thier prices (either way, problem solved). I know everyone says dealerships have to pay rent and all that other crap so they have higher overhead, but IMO they probably don't make that much of thier money selling accessories anyway, they make it by charging squids $100 for an oil change, and $35 to tighten one bolt (no, I'm not making that up, no, I didn't pay it, and no I don't shop at that place anymore images/icons/rolleyes.gif ) But really, do they have to charge 200% over cost? If it was a little more, I'd be happy to buy from them, but when its $150-200 more, that don't work. I can hardly afford new gear as it is, and that $200 is next months car payment images/icons/tongue.gif
I don't buy into the bit about making a relationship with your dealer either, mostly because the only local Suzuki dealership is crap. But thats an entirely different rant.

GSXR_Master, you don't need to bash lizard, he didn't do anything to you. The great thing about this country images/icons/tongue.gif is that he can have an opinion if he wants to, and if its different than yours you don't gotta get personal over it. And anyway, if you really wanna boycott a company just because of what some guy on the 'net says, then you've got some issues... If I said I worked for Suzuki and I pissed you off would you sell your bike? images/icons/confused.gif

[ 03-05-2002, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: Void ]

So, what you're saying is that the helmet manufacturers will become a cartel, artificially keeping prices high to maintain their market position. I'll tell you exactly what will happen. The grey market will emerge. Foreign dealers will be able to get helmets at a reduced rate and will start importing them into the US, outside of the controlled environment the manufacturers are tying to impose. You'll create a split market that will start small, but as word spreads it will threaten the industry as a whole, which will then start dramatic back pedalling.

Now, I'm no scholar of market forces, but I've witnessed it here in the UK. It started with bikes, being parallel imported from Japan and Singapore by a handful of independent dealers, which the industry shrugged off. "Who'd buy a bike from a foreign country, without a manufacturers warranty, even if they do save $2000?" they said. Honda even took several dealers to court to stop them selling Honda products. Honda lost. The market as a whole over the past 4 to 5 years has changed. The retail price of a GSXR600 in 1997 was £7250. Now they go for £5995 in an official Suzuki dealers. And the Grey importers? Thriving.

And this isn't limited to bikes. The pattern repeated. Designer clothes were next, consumer electricals, cars, you name it. One by one, the cartels are being broken down and manufacturers are being forced to respond. And the grey market for clothing (leathers helmets etc) is just starting, with 2 major internet dealers going on line in January.

Of course the UK and US markets are different beasts, but the lesson remain broadly the same.

BTW, off topic, the little red tab has pulled off my Suomy lid (the one that helps undo the strap) is it worth going back to my dealer or do they all do that? It's only 4 months old and I've only worn it about 8 times. And for the record, my dealer is an authorised Suomy dealer and were excellent, but are also cheap because they're a clothing only shop.

I don't like paying for "Perceived values".

Here's an idea, large companies stop gouging us!

Arai is trying to change MSRP to MRP!
As a consumer I don't like absolutism, it dosen't leave me with alternatives.
If all lid companies did the same would it be a cartel?

Geez 'rev you beat me to it!

[ 03-05-2002, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: criminalspeed ]

Notorious-

GSXR Master will probably think I am working for Suomy here and want to start a riot, but try and get the dealer, since they are authorized, and have them try to get it warrantied through Gearbox, Int'l. That's the distributor here in the states. If your dealer gives you a hassle or seems less than happy to help, call Gearbox direct at 800-799-9444 and ask for Chris, Ryan or Don. Tell them your story and see what they can get done for you. They will be away until after Daytona, but I will see them there and can maybe give them a heads up if you want. Let me know what the dealer says and get to me by Wed. night.

Really, the red strap does nothing important, but it is a failure that I am sure can somehow be taken care of. Gearbox is striving to be very accomodating towards warranty issues.

OOPS! See that you are from England. Don't know what to tell you there. Maybe still call here in the States to see.

As far as the Grey Market issue. Your right. Companies must cater to companies that buy more product. Otherwise, you'll get a shop that will only buy 5 helmets and get the same price as the catalog places. Not a fair deal and it would be mostly beneficial to the manufacturer. There has to be bigger quantities equals better dealer costs or it won't work. That's, however, the one reason a dealer cannot sell a product for the same price as the catalogs and internet people.

For example, a shop here in Ohio that is the biggest retailer of a helmet I will leave nameless gets the second to best pricing available due to the fact they buy in at 25 helmets. Now, Chapparel buys in at 250 helmets and gets a price that isn't even listed. To the tune of 15% better margin. If dealer in Ohio buys in at 200$, and the helmet sells for $300, guess what Chappey has in it? They automatically can drop 15% and still maintain a 32-34% margin.

That's the problem. The dealer will not and can't be expected to inventory 250 helmets from only one company. A typical shop will carry 2-3 high end companies, 2 mid grade and 2-3 low end with 2-3 companies that are MX helmets. That's a total of 6-10 companies represented in one shop that would be considered big. They cannot afford to maintain high #'s on high end helmets. Most shops will inventory higher #'s on low end helmets and will have a small selection of high end. It's what the market mandates. Typical customers want a cheap helmet, jackets, gloves, boots, etc. They do not typically buy Vanson jackets, Arai helmets, Alpinestar GP Plus gloves, SIDI boots, etc. So, it's not a warrantable idea to buy in like Chapparel does just to get the margins that allow for deep discounts.

Now, most of the guys here probably want the Arai's, Alpinestars, Vansons, etc., but the majority of the customers that come in shops want a $100 helmet and a cheap coat, etc. It's a fact of life that can be shown in graphs and numbers from companies in the industry. HJC sells the most, yes, but not of just the high end AC-12's. That # of total helmets has a small % of the high end in there. Companies like VEGA helmets are really selling more helmets than you want to believe. There stuff retails for about $100 and they sell like wild fire in shops. It used to be Fulmer, but now the king of crap is Vega.

Originally posted by Lizard 1:
Companies like VEGA helmets are really selling more helmets than you want to believe. There stuff retails for about $100 and they sell like wild fire in shops. It used to be Fulmer, but now the king of crap is Vega.<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ain't that the truth...
I just got rid of my crappy 4 year old Fulmer, UPS man should be bringing my new AGV x-vent in about 45 minutes images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif
Shit though, when you don't know any better and there's noone there to tell you... I thought $125 was a hell of a lot of money to spend on a lid, and before I started reading this board, I would have never even considered wearing a leather jacket and gloves. (maybe that comes from growing up in a state without a helmet law)

first, the lens sounds interesting, have to check it out. but as far as the arguement goes, i have no choice but to get products at the lowest price. for those of us who dont have a lot of "extra" cash, thats our only choice. if i bought at my local dealer just so they can survive, i wouldnt be there very often to buy. unfortunately, thats the story for the average rider. not that anyone cares, just trying to give an "average" riders point of view.

Yeah this reply is super late but.. my .02..

everything is a trade off..

you have a good shop - you get higher prices, and better advice, oh and the ability to try it on and take it home.

you have internet - you get major discounts, no readily available advice (well you can get it as messageboards like this one, which I prefer because you get a variety of opinions instead of 1 or 2) - and you have to wait to get the part.

problem comes in when the dealar has to order it, if I know a dealer has to order something (ie, a headlight bracket for my 98 600) I dont' even waste his time by going in, I get it online. bugs me when people go into a dealership, spend 2 hours there trying things on and talking to salespeople and then they go out and get it somewhere else cheaper (online or otherwise). I personally have ethical issues with that.

For instance, I'm looking for a new jacket, I tried on a few at a dealership here, but just sized them, I didn't sit there and pick the salesmans brains while they could be getting an actual sale from someone else, I'm not about to spend 340 dollars on a last years joe rocket blaster thats all dusty and even looks worn. I'll be spending 360 on a nice new Alpinestars now after the advice I've gotten on the internet.

Times change.. either you change with them, or you go out of business.

If some helmet companies start charging MSRP across the board, guess what, I'll take my business elsewhere. What does Arai think their lids are made of gold? I've got an HJC CL-12 and it works just fine for what I use it for, SNELL and DOT approved, fits well, what else do I need? Knock it all you want for me having a 'cheap' helmet, but I've yet to find anybody that has told me that a Shoei or an Arai is going to protect me any better in a crash than my HJC.

uhh </rant>

- G

I'm on a roll tonight so i'll add my 2 cents here lol I have a Arai I own one for two reasons

1) It fits my head the best

2) I got it for under 400 bucks with two sheilds

I don't make a shitload of money every year and if I had to pay the 500 or 600 bucks that dealers want for an Arai i'd be wearing a HJC or some other pile of shit helmet. I grew up surfing helemts are made of fiberglass (at least all the ones i've seen) that stuff is cheap i've done many a surf board repairs in my garage. Arai's are damm nice but no helmet is worth 600 bucks i've bounced my head off the asphalt at 60 miles an hour and my 250 Shoei work just fine. As for this kid if I can only by an Arai from a Arai dealer whose going to charge me a ridiculous amount i'll take my bizz elsewhere and find a new brand of helmet to wear.

on paying full price graemlins/piss.gif

I have to throw my 2 cents in on this one.

First of all I fully understand that businesses have to make a living and that they have much higher overhead. That said I simply refuse to purchase big ticket items and be gouged! I have been to some bonehead shops that suck images/icons/mad.gif and I simply don't deal with them, regardless of price! A good shop will always get my business if possible. images/icons/grin.gif

Second, I need to make a living just like they do and whenever I pay more to a dealer I expect something in return. That return is service! Of course if you spend a lot on riding gear then that can be a significant amount of money for the "service" portion. Like anything I buy I put a value on the product and if it falls into the acceptable range I buy. My problem with dealers is that many offer you nothing in return for the extra price. At a mail order price I may buy a product on a whim but at 30% more I'm simply not interested.

For instance, I have an Arai Doohan rep lid and from the moment I used it I fell in love with it. I can't imagine going back to Shoei but that quality difference is only worth so much. At a dealers price I don't feel an Arai is valuable, it's still the best but I'd rather buy something close that the price makes more valuable.

Lizard, you refer to the Oakley method and there is some validity in the argument but mostly with poseurs who buy for the brand and not the value. This technique does often work but not to the consumer’s benefit. It’s up to the dealer to perform and prove why they deserve your business and being an authorized dealer alone is not enough reason for me to shop somewhere. As much as I love Arai, I won’t have another if I have to pay full retail. They’re not that good!

My final statement is this. I get to decide where, how, when and what I spend my money on. I'm the one who worked for it! By forcing me to buy at a set rate I had better really value the product, otherwise I will shop elsewhere. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

Arai's plan graemlins/piss.gif

BTW, the tinted shields sound very interesting. graemlins/thumbup.gif

Arai has got the whole "perceived value" concept wrong, at least in my mind. I don't give a rats ass about how much it costs, it's what people say about a product that give it worth. I'm sure some people fall for the "well, its more expensive so it must be a better product." I don't. If I hear from a number of people that have sampled different makers of a product, the product with the most "perceived value" is the product that got the most recommendations. it doesn't matter if that product cost half as much as every other brand.
So Arai has it all wrong in their new method, IMO. I guess I lied earlier when I said I don't give a rats ass about the price, cause I do. I will never pay what Arai "suggests" the retail price of their helmets should be.

Arai helmet not worth it vs. an HJC because no one's told you that an Arai will protect you better than an HJC? Guess what, I'm telling you an Arai will protect you better than an HJC. Want proof?

Talk to Scott Harwell from Archlite and ask him about his Daytona banking crash he had. Split the helmet wide open like an egg. He didn't receive a single amount of head injury including zero concussion.

Second, Aaron and Anthony Gobert's crash on the banking this season at Daytona. If you saw Aaron's helmet, you'd be certain he should have died. Both he and Anthony had nothing but praise for how both helmets protected them - especially Aaron. The Suomy they were wearing did the job to the extent that Aaron had zero head injuries and no concussion.

I have had crashes in Arai's, AGV's and Suomy's. I can find three crashes in all three helmets that were the same impacts and only the AGV gave me a concussion. Actually, I have had 3 concussions while wearing AGV's. The helmet didn't absorb the impact the same as the Arai did or what we currently wear - the Suomy. All crashes were oblique impacts and yet they all weren't the same. I'd wear an Arai if I couldn't wear my Suomy's.

That's proof.

The arguement that product is advertised and consumers buy image is true to an extent, but if you honestly think that Oakley makes a sunglass/RX glass that is the absolute same as cheaper glasses, I can give you not only independant licensed testimony from Optical doctors, but I can give you what materials are used in their glasses to compare vs. others. Again, if you do not educate yourself and you buy based on the fact that "hey, it's a DOT/Snell helmet - it's the same protection I will get from an Arai, Shoei, Suomy, etc. Why pay that price for a name only?" Dude, you are not a serious rider. You don't learn construction techniques and the advantages of things like single layer fiberglass, bag molding, etc. You don't notice the difference in quality of liners. Does your cheek pads snap in or do they have better padding and lock into place via a tab locking set-up?

There's nothing wrong with the likes of HJC or KBC, etc. It's just that if you honestly think they are the same as Arai but cheaper because it doesn't have the name, you're just kidding yourself. Buy your HJC for your own reasons, but don't get on here saying they are the same and no one has told you any different. Don't come on here stating that Arai is the same quality as HJC, but Arai advertises and creates an image that allows them to price their helmets higher when in reality, they should cost the same as HJC. You are comparing apples to oranges.

This topic is a dead horse that keeps getting beat and beat and beat. Die horse, die.

Look on the bright side guys....if we were Harley riders, we'd be doing our best to even get the payment as low as MSRP....!!!! graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif graemlins/laugh.gif

Ok, I have my own feelings on online sales, but I'll try to leave the dead horse alone. I just want one of these hyperoptic visors. Gearbox is on like a two month back order. Lizard do you know where i can get one sooner? I would appreciate the help.

Not to kick the dead horse but there is such a thing as Minimum Advertised Price (MAP) which would've helped Arai instead of cutting the market out all together. I have a shop and the internet is KILLING me on some stuff. Although some of my lines are protected from internet sales. That does help alot. If you want that product you have to come to me. But I'm not gonna charge a ridiculous price for it and i'm not going to give it away at the same time. Both sides give valid points. As a customer I want the cheapest price out there with excellent service. As a retailer I want to be able to stay competative with everyone, BUT my service should make you want to come back to me. If you can put a price on excellent service I would say to the general consumer it would be about $50 - $75. That is where MAP price helps you, you can't advertise lower than that, BUT when working the deal you can throw in some stuff or cut the price during the sale. You can't say you are cheaper than everyone else openly. Ok I'm done I could go one but I won't.

About the visor - Let me know where i can get one.

Thanks for listening.

Yeah, the things took off faster than they anticipated. However, since they are designed by Rick himself, they should be coming soon. I would try Parts Unlimited right now. I know they got a bit from Rick, but I don't know if they are out, as well...

how light/dark do these inserts get? would you happen to have some pictures?

To be quite honest, not as dark as I thought. Tried one at Daytona and thought it could have been darker. But, it does well in acting as an alternative to say a light smoke shield. It doesn't get to the point where you cannot see your face from the outside like a dark smoke sheild does.

But, it is a great alternative. As far as the light when in darker conditions - yes, it is very nice. It ends up being a very light blue tint and does well with glare. Another nice thing vs. a clear shield...

You guys need to take a freakin Valium (or for some of you, a cheap generic knock off that can be purchased on line or with the easy use of a 1-800 number) The dealers need support and that is that. If a dealer is ripping someone off and they are stupid enough to keep going back, then that is on them. The downside to all of the price whoring on the internet is any goon with a lap top can set up an internet shop and undercut anyone. They have no overhead, and many don't even keep stock.

A good dealer needs support, and if you give it to them it will work out in the long run. Will that internet company repair your bike when you loop it doing some moronic phat ass nac nac wheelie. No, you will go to the shop and then they will screw you. You know what, they should because you have not supported them. Both hands wash the other.

As Lizard 1 first started (don't believe his Suomy cult talk, buy Arai) if you want cheap helmets, buy a Vega. Arai helmets are the only hand made helmets on the market and they are not made with some run of the mill products purchased at Home Depot. There is a lot of technology in a helmet, and the reason helmets have gotten so expensive recently is because of the insurance a company has to carry in order to sell a helmet. It's because goons who can barely afford their bike, don't have proper insurance, and whose only riding skill is a stand up wheelie are crashing their brains out and it is never their fault.

Instead of screwing the dealers, why not encourage guys to learn how to ride, save the racing for the track, and skip the extreme crap. If someone is dumb enough to feel cost is more important than protection (regardless of the brand), or even more of a dumbass to not wear a helmet at all, then consider it natural selection at work. Maybe if they survive they can get their work dog to find them a phat ass deals on some 20" rims for their wheelchair on the internet.

Stay away from the light - look away. Say it with me - SUOMY. Arai sucks. Just kiddin' Who's the Squid guy? Christ I hope he doesn't have a finger near the Nuke button. Don't surf angry...

Originally posted by squidward:
A good dealer needs support, and if you give it to them it will work out in the long run. Will that internet company repair your bike when you loop it doing some moronic phat ass nac nac wheelie. No, you will go to the shop and then they will screw you. You know what, they should because you have not supported them. Both hands wash the other. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, this would be a good, except for the fact that the only Suzuki dealership within an hour of here licks hairy donkey balls. Why should I support a shop that can't properly change a tire, a shop that wants almost $9000 for a 4yr old/10k miles TL-R and refuses to budge on the price, and a shop that wanted to charge me $30 to torque one loose nut on my bike? You say both hands wash the other ( graemlins/icon_wtf.gif ), but IMO it goes both ways. If they're gonna provide shitty service then why should I give them my business? I've given that place too many chances and they've screwed me every time.
Oh, FWIW, the only dealer that carries Arai around here is a Duc shop, so they're even more overpriced than anyplace else.
Arai graemlins/piss.gif I'm happy as hell with my AGV