i am putting my gixxer back to stock (taking out jet kit) is it ok to leave the v&H SS 4-1 full exhaust on or should i look to a stock system also i found a good deal (i think) on a brand new yoshimura 4-1 full system for $215 maybe i should go with that
its a Zyclone round racer system black header and aluminum canister
images/icons/confused.gif

I would think if you are taking out the jet kit that you'd want the stock pipes on there or it won't run right. Maybe we can work out a trade. I have stock pipes in good condition and would like the Yosh 4-1.

how much would you want for the stock header and pipes

The right muffler has some scratches on it. The guy who owned it before went down in a parking lot at low speed, the scratches aren't bad and I just put some hi-temp paint on the headers so they are in good shape. $100? What do you think?

that sounds like a fair price i just want to make sure that i need the stock exhaust cause i thought the vance and hines supersport wasn't much different than stock size diameter other than the fact its 4:1
i am trying to get the best gas mileage and performance out of my gix cuz the jet kit will not work right in it i have messed around with this kit for 8 weeks and can't get it to run right so i am just gonna put it back to stock

p.s do you think it could use a valve adjustment its got 15K miles on it and its been ridden hard

valve adjustment intervals on the old oil cooled gsxr's are supposed to be around every 3000 miles.

if you haven't had the clearances at least checked, i STRONGLY advise you to do so.

if the valves are in bad shape, jetting problems would be the least of your worries.....

thanks for the advise jeff i will check them pronto also what should i do for the above problem and would the valves at all affect my problems i am currently having with jetting because i want to fix this once and for all before its too late to ride this year images/icons/cool.gif

i'd have the valves adjusted first, then do the jetting afterwards. valves can definitely affect the bike's running....not only that, but if the clearances are too tight on the exhaust valves, they could burn the valve seats....

are you running the airbox or individual filters on the carbs?

stock airbox with stock filter most of my problems occur at low rpm's like the bike loads up real bad in town and does die on occasion, when hard on throttle from slow start it puffs some black smoke out i am trying to find someone to work on the valves for me but no shop around here will work on a bike that is over 10 years old
so now i am stuck i have a manual but it doesn't show how to adjust valve clearances just how to tear the head off and take apart the valves images/icons/grin.gif

what manual do you have? the factory service manual and the clymer's manual have instructions on how to adjust the valves.....on your bike, it's a snap. it uses screw type adjusters so all you'll need is a feeler gauge and a tappet wrench set....

do the valve adjust first, and see if that helps the problem......if it doesn't, your bike is running too rich or you have an ignition problem. or you might have a clogged air filter....

Sounds like you should tackle this issue in stages.

1. Adjust valves.
2. Check air filter.
3. Pull carbs and check main jets. With the stock box, and airfilter, I would expect to see 130-132 mains in those carbs, if it were running right - see what you have in there.
4. Coils or black box...?

Mark

main jets are supposed to be 112.5 i have already put brand new ones in there
i have the clymer manual and i didn't see how to adjust the valves

i have had these carbs apart over 10 times and everyhing is set right and all stock except for the fuel/mixture screw the manuel doesn't tell how many turns out so i set it 2 turns out
i have been through this whole manual at least a dozen times and through the carbeurator several and everything is set properly with right size jets and all
the only thing i could thing that would effect the way it is curently running is
A. vance and hines exhaust
B. fuel/mixture screw not set right
C. valves out of adjustment
D. correctors still installed in sliders from jet kit i can't get those out so i bought new ones and they should be in this week

i just want this shit over with so i can enjoy my ride and not have to worry about it dying and running out of gas

my gas milage is avg. 70miles on a full tank
hhhhhheeeellllpppp !!!

images/icons/mad.gif

When you saw the mains are supposed to be 112, you mean with the stock exhaust, don't you? I would have thought that the stock mains would be 112 with stock everything.

Mark

there's something wrong....you should get much more than 70 miles out of a full tank.

hell, i had stage 3's on my old 750's (main jet sizes in the 140's) and i got better mileage than that, and that was for city commuting!

the mixture screw is not going to make that huge of a difference....have you checked float heights? if the fuel level is too high, that could cause the bike to guzzle gas.

the clymer's manual i had for my 86-87 750 had the valve adjustment instructions in it.....you might have to dig around for it, though. it could be after the section that tells you how to reinstall the cams.

how exactly do you check float height i know exactly what u mean but were do you take the actual measurement

also i have tried the full blown stage 3 kit 144 mains and k & n individual filters all the good stuff set perfect to spec and it wouldn't leave the garage without fouling plugs

i have tried every combination of mains vs. clip setting vs. airbox, no airbox you name it i tried it with all the parts available with the jet kit and stock parts i am just tired of it, i feel like i am doing something wrong even with my know how and ability of myself and friends we can't figure this thing out

if you can, tell me the best way this bike will run with what i have or even what i need and i will do it
let me know exactly what size mains and how everthing should be set up i will do what ever has to be done i.e. buy new exhaust, new carbs, new valves, whatever you think i need, just tell me how and in what order i should do this

thanks for any and all help you guys rock

first things first - valve adjust. get that done right, and it just might help quite a bit.

jeff should i buy a new valve cover gasket or wait and replace it later this winter because i did find it in the maintenance section of my manual that shows how to adjust the valves so i am going to buy some new feeler gauges and get this done before i go to peoria ILL this weekend images/icons/grin.gif

Not to step in the way, but the valve cover gasket is reusable, just be careful when reseating the cover - that careful note goes even if you are using a new gasket - get someone to help you guide the cover back in, and lower it on, works much easier with 4 hands.

Mark

yeah, you can reuse the valve cover gasket.....get a set of tappet wrenches, too, i think motion pro makes them.....they make adjusting clearances and tightening the locknuts much easier.

thanks you guys i will keep u updated and then if u would you can tell me what step i should take after each task to get this sucka running right

ok i checked the valves and they were off a tad so i put all of them in spec and went to peoria this weekend but still no change it died twice in peoria and loaded up to the point i almost fouled the plugs luckily i pushed it into a parking spot and made it to the TT race on time anyway i only got 90 miles on a full tank and that was straight highway miles no town, so i still have a problem at hand what now??? images/icons/grin.gif

sounds like you're running way too rich.....you've got 112.5 mains in the carbs? what are your needle and mixture screw settings?

needle is set to second clip position from the top and mixture is app. 1 3/4 out

yeah, check your float heights, they could be too high. i don't know the spec'd heights offhand, though. it'll be in the service manual, or somebody here might know it....

the float height is measured with the float at a position when it's just making contact with the float needle.

there's more detailed info here:

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/float_height_adj_procedure.html

ok jeff thats the goal for tonight i will post further info later

sounds okay.......is your choke closing fully? check the enrichener port in the inside of each carb. make sure that when the choke lever is closed, that the ports are also closed.....otherwise, raw fuel will be dumped into the intake stream.

i am 99% sure they are but i will have to look agin tonight when i get home do you think the the float bowl need to be adjusted and how would they get off spec to begin with

ok jeff i checked them and they were all in spec
next guess??

have you checked the air filter?

since it seems that fuelling appears to be okay, we'll focus on ignition...


what brand and exact type of spark plugs is the bike using?

when it fouls plugs, does it foul all of them at once?

i have only fouled them once but many many many times they will get so soaked in gas that they are on the virge of fouling so i clean them and put them back in when i change the plugs (once a month) they are coated in silky black powder

i have ran stock plugs JR9C and also splitfire plugs SF416D
the splitfires last longer

let me reitterate i don't foul plugs i just get nervous that its about to happen after the bike and loads up very very badly and after 15 min. in town riding its guaranteed to die
i hope this isn't going to be an expenisve fix

it sounds to me like either the carbs are flooding the motor, or your ignition is on its way out.

do you get a very strong smell of raw fuel when the bike starts to load up? maybe even see fuel leaking out of the carbs? if so, that could be the float valves sticking open. remove the float bowls and squirt some aerosol carb cleaner through the float valves, that would dislodge anything that might be causing the valve(s) to stick open. if they still leak, then they'll probably need to be replaced.

i'd also cast a suspicious eye on the ignition. can you maybe borrow a set of known good coils from another bike and try them out on yours? that would help narrow things down. you can use ignition coils from pretty much any bike as long as they are dual output and have 3 ohm primary and 15k-25k ohm (if memory serves me correctly) secondary windings.

no i don't smell raw fuel when it loads up you can just tell the intenisty of fuel loading in the cylinders just choking the engine to death
if in fact coils or any part of the ignition is bad would i still have problems at high rpm's because the bike runs pretty well as long as i'm not sputtering around town or at low speeds 55 or less

if i were to get some of the coils you were talking about would some from a 96 Katana 750 work i know of one with a blown engine and if so, were exactly are they located so i could grab them and how do i change them, is it in my manual

ignition coils can act up in all sorts of weird ways.....but for the moment getting back to fuelling, did you check the size of the pilot jets? maybe the previous owner (if there was one) replaced them with larger ones, or drilled them out.

stock pilots for your bike should be 32.5....the number denotes jet orifice diameter in hundredths of a millimeter, so your pilot jets should have orifices that are right around 1/3 of a millimeter in diameter.

clean the float valves anyway - just in case they're opening enough to flood the cylinders, but not enough to actually cause fuel to overflow out of the carbs....


the ignition coils from a 96 katana will work - they bolt up to the frame.....on your bike, they should be bolted close to the steering neck, in front of the valve cover. the clymer's should show you where they go - it's a very simple swap.

ok jeff i have bugged you enough today i will check the float valves and pilot jets (i pretty sure i checked that already)and hopefully i can get the coils and put those on tonight
more to follow later!!

yes its clean and its brand new (month old)

ok jeff i tried a good set of coils and they didn't help i got the same results
next suggestion

this has been a problem since i bought the bike and the guy before that and the guy before that i think i am the 4th owner, no one can seem to get it running fortunately i don't have a penny in this one (except for my mods)since i traded it straight up for my 88 FZ 600 i can get an ecu from a 96 katana to try is that an easy swap or should i look elsewere for an ecu
and how exactly could the ecu be at fault

has this problem always been happening since you got the bike, or was it a more recent development?

did you get a chance to check the pilot jets and float valves?

it's possible that the ecu is at fault. unfortunately, to test this, you'd need to swap for a known good one.....

you got an 89 gsxr750 for an 88 fz600? that was one helluva deal. images/icons/grin.gif

i don't believe the 96 katana's ecu would plug in, much less work, but i could be wrong. if you could borrow it, it might be worth a shot.

ideally, though, you'd probably want to stick with an 89 750 ecu, although perhaps an 1100 unit might work as well.

ecu's can act up in strange ways.....since your problem is affecting all of your cylinders, it's got to be something that would affect them all at the same time.

also, the process of elimination.....we've already covered jetting, coils, etc., so there's really not that much more left to try....


i might also suspect cam timing (maybe the cams are off a tooth or something), but if that were the case, i'd expect you to lose power up in the rpm range, instead of it running fine...

any idea were to look for an ecu

jeff i have to confess something i didn't check if the choke was working properly i forgot to ask you about how that enrichening port looks like and were its located in the carbs
do you think that would have an effect on all my problems, we have eliminated everything else except ecu and i just can't see that being a problem

i wonder if the choke could be at fault, would my symptoms seem to fit its faulty behavior and if so do i replace it or how do i check it and fix it

tonight i put in stage 3 with 144 mains and it would not even stay running if i let off the throttle,i fouled stock plugs so then i put in the 124 mains (stage 1 with full exhaust) it started and stayed running fine but it poured out black smoke like no tomorrow when i hit the gas and damn near died when u let off the throttle could this be symptoms of the choke images/icons/mad.gif images/icons/mad.gif

the enrichener (choke) port in each carb basically dumps raw fuel into the cylinders.....good for starting a cold motor, not so good at all other times. since your bike seems to be either running really rich (or not sparking properly), enrichener ports that are stuck open are a good possibility.

if i remember correctly, the enrichener ports on your bike's carbs are located underneath the carb tops......you'll need to partially remove the slides and get the diaphragms out of the way to see it. it'll be towards the front (motor side) of the carbs. if you pull the choke lever open, you'll see the enrichener port open.....it should also close when the choke is closed. if not, you've found the problem....

the port is basically just a small hole in the carb body, but when it's closed, there's a gold colored (most likely brass) 'door' there which slides open when the choke rail is pulled open, and allows raw fuel into the carb.

ok there is tonights goal maybe we found the culprit either way more info later
thanks jeff

i just thought of it how do i fix it if thats the problem like if they don't close what should i do i am gonna do this as soon as i get home but i wanna be sure how to remedy this if its the problem

it really depends on why they're not closing.....a few pieces on the choke assembly are available separately from suzuki, but i think the actual 'slides' that open and close are part of the carb assemblies.....

guess what jeff it wasn't the choke i checked it and when you pull it out the ports open and when u close it the ports close so that isn't it do you think its the ecu i don't understand how it would affect the way it runs i figured either it runs or it don't, could it be anything else besides the ecu or is that the only thing left that could be wrong images/icons/mad.gif

let's just quickly run down what's been checked (and were fine):

- jetting
- coils and wires
- plugs
- valve clearances
- float heights
- choke operation
- air filter


the bike runs fine up top but feels like it's loading up down low, right?

is there an ignition advancer on the bike? pull off the signal generator cover (take care not to rip the gasket, so that you can reuse it, otherwise you'll need a replacement) and have a look.....if it's a non-adjustable advancer, it'll have the advance stamped on it somewhere, like +3 or +4. if it's an adjustable one, it'll have like one or two bolts on it that you can loosen and adjust the timing....

i'm thinking possibly an adjustable advancer that's been set to advance the ignition too much.....that'll cause problems with street riding. probably a long shot, though....


i just remembered, there's only one signal pickup on your bike, so if there issues with it, it would affect all four cylinders....(but hell if i know why it would only affect you at lower rpm's)....there should be a testing procedure for the pickup in the service manual.


another possibility: worn emulsion tubes (needle jets).....check out factory pro's tech article on this:

http://www.factorypro.com/tech/needle_jet_Mikuni.html

(i know it says 38mm cv carbs but the 36's on your bike are close enough in design i suppose...)

give the above a try first.....i'd hate for you to pay out the ass for a replacement ecu only to discover that it wasn't the problem...

how's your battery?

check its voltage with the ignition off.....should be around 12.9-13.1 volts for a healthy, fully charged battery.

then start up the bike and rev it up to around 5k rpm.....you should get a voltage no less than 14 and no greater than 15 volts.


just another shot in the dark....

checked that too and battery is only 2 months old

you checked the advancer, pickup, and emulsion tubes for wear?

ecu would pretty much be the only thing left that i can think of.....it controls ignition timing across the rev range. it's possible for it to start acting up and cause running problems only at certain points in the rev range....

whoa three more things ok were is the advancer and pickup located, what should they look like(condition wise), and what is that tube thing and were is it at

shit i didn't see your longer post, (how did i miss it) i will check those components tuesday night and will follow up later
the emulsion tubes are ok though i checked the whole carbs over and over for anything i might have missed i'm rulling out carburation for the time being

the ignition rotor and pickup are behind the small right hand side engine cover....the one right in front of the clutch.

i am sitting here at work looking at my manual for the 225th time

the ignition advancer is the round plate with a sharp point sticking out right?
do they go bad or how can u tell if its not advanced right the manual is very short with explaination obviously it needs to line up with the pickup but thats all it says

the pickup i am assuming its the signal generator right? the manual says how to take it apart and put it back together and how to test it, well thats fine and good but the only thing it says is if the resistance is greator than 130-180 ohms or infinite you should replace it, what it doesn't tell u is the side effect if in fact it is a bad component(i.e. how the bike would run if bad)

my question: what is it that these two parts together do exactly

2nd question: if in fact one of these are at fault should i put a +5 degree advancer on it or replace it with stock parts

my goal is to put the stage 3 jet kit in if all possible if not, fine i be happy to have a bike that runs

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Klipsch_gixxer ]

yes, the round thing with the points sticking out of it is the ignition rotor. since it is mounted on the end of the crankshaft, it sends signals to the ecu....the ecu uses these signals to determine the position of the crankshaft, and thus when to spark the appropriate cylinders according to its built-in ignition timing maps.

if an aftermarket advancer is used instead of the stock rotor, it will typically have the ignition advance stamped on the rotor itself (for example, +5). if it is an adjustable advancer, it will have a bolt or two on it which when loosened would allow the outer 'trigger' section of the rotor to be rotated independently of the center part of the rotor (that's bolted to the crankshaft), and thus allows adjustment of ignition timing.

if the ignition pickup (signal generator) were completely malfunctioning, the bike would not run at all....the ecu depends on the signal from the pickup to determine which cylinders to fire and when.

checking the pickup is just a shot in the dark.....it's probably fine since the bike is running well at higher rpm's.

my concern was that if the ignition were advanced too far (a misadjusted adjustable advancer, or a pickup whose mounting points have been modified so that ignition timing is altered), that could cause running problems....


again, shots in the dark, but we're starting to run out of options......

so basically i should look to see if its aligned properly if so then i am fucked, maybe those emulsion tubes are bad i thought they looked ok but maybe not i can't see that affecting it that much but hay that article was pretty convincing
so tonight i check advancer and pickup, then emulsion tubes again(maybe i should buy a magnifying glass)
if all of these are fine then the only thing left would be ecu right?

oh shit, i just remembered something, when i first got this bike the (i think its a solenoid) kept sticking and the bike would try and start on its own, i mean if you shut it off the bike would keep on turning over, i know its the part under the battery hanging there by a hanger if you tap it it stops and everything is fine. i forgot about that cause it doesn't do it very often anymore???

i have checked all wiring and everything is intact and tight so its not a wiring problem but could a bad solinoid make it run weird if it doesn't work properly


what the fuck is a float bowl vent tube i looked everywere and can't see were the fuck it would be
http://www.thunderslide.com/suzuki/3122.008.pdf

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Klipsch_gixxer ]

a sticking starter solenoid shouldn't make a difference, although obviously it's something you should replace....you don't want your bike starting by itself at inopportune moments (like if it's in gear and on the sidestand)....

the float bowl vents should be between carbs 1&2 and 3&4....it's a t-fitting between the pairs of carbs, if i remember correctly.....

i'd probably expect that the pickup and rotor are okay.....nobody really modifies the pickup to alter ignition timing unless they're really cheap and don't want to spring $40 for an advancer.....it's worth a look, anyway.

after that, i'd suspect the ecu, if only because there's really nothing else left.

have you checked for vacuum leaks? make sure all the caps that are on each carb for synchronizing are in good shape and aren't leaking....also the vacuum line that goes to the petcock....if it's old, it's likely to be cracked and leaking....that would cause poor running at low rpm's....

jeff, you are a god
the gix runs and run it does, i never thought i would see the day it ran like this

i put some new carbs from my buds 96 katana with my jet kit it worked, i about came in my pants at the way it ran last night
never has it ran so good i mean it was smooth response and no loading up, and top end holy shit i didn't know what that was, i thought it was gonna lift off the ground in 3rd

so i guess i should just rebuild my carbs??
new emulsion tubes (i think thats the key)
new pilots
anything else i should replace cause everything else i put in his carbs came from mine, so i see no reason it wouldn't transfer right back to mine if i rebuild them

Jeff, i can't thank you enough for all your help if you are ever in indy give me a shout and i would gladly buy you a round of barley pops
you definitely get some stars images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

ah - so it was a carb issue after all......the katana's carbs are nearly identical to the ones on your bike, so things like jets will swap with no problems.

we'd still have to find out exactly what is wrong with your carbs.....the emulsion tubes could be one culprit....how about the needles? if the ones in your carbs are worn, that could cause issues.....

pretty much....don't forget the air jets, though (the jets screwed into the front of the bellmouths).....

were is a cheap place to get the carb parts i have got a price of $20 for each imulsion tube, thats from bikebandit.com is that a fair price i would think i could find carbs for $60 but then again i may run into the same problem

are you positive it's the emulsion tubes? try swapping all of the other parts from your carbs to the katana carbs.....slides, diaphragms, emulsion tubes, and pilot jets.....to see if the problem appears on the good carbs.

jeff i gotta give those katana carbs back soon so i called around and found a set of good clean carbs for $50 thats minus slides,needles, springs, and caps, so i think i'm gonna get those so i know i will have good emulsion tubes and all tbe bottom end is good so if nothing else i will have quite a few parts to play with if need be, plus i already have extra needles and 6 diffent jet sizes

but yes my slides, springs, needles,and the like are in good shape i have checked those for nics and scratches and they all look fine and fit nicely into place

i have my needles and springs clips jets all of that stuff in his carbs so i think the only thing left in my that could be at fault is the imulsion tubes, and pilot jets right??

if they're in good shape, that's a fair price....

kool,
jeff i think i am good to go now i have learned a lot from your posts and i thank you. thanks for everythig and i would gladly hook you up with a brewski if you come through indianapolis some time

oh just thought about the title of this here thread what are my options for an exhaust got the v&H but who would give me best performanace yosh or who??

dater lude

[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Klipsch_gixxer ]

no problem - let us know how the carbs work out.