So i just bought my first bike a couple weeks ago and it has 2700 miles on it and ive been wanting to change the oil just so i can keep track of the maintaince on it. ive been reading and reading about what oil and filter to use and i have decided to run amsoil with the stock filter. but my question is what do you guys think about putting the BG moa oil additive in aswell?

So i just bought my first bike a couple weeks ago and it has 2700 miles on it and ive been wanting to change the oil just so i can keep track of the maintaince on it. ive been reading and reading about what oil and filter to use and i have decided to run amsoil with the stock filter. but my question is what do you guys think about putting the BG moa oil additive in aswell?

ABSOLUTELY NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!

AMSOIL, just as other oils are formulated by Lubrication engineers. Use of an additive in oil can adversely effect the oils additive package.

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Bob

I'm not an oil expert but I can see no reason why you would need to run an oil additive ever.

ABSOLUTELY NOT !!!!!!!!!!!!

AMSOIL, just as other oils are formulated by Lubrication engineers. Use of an additive in oil can adversely effect the oils additive package.

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Bob

Do you even know what BG products are?

So i just bought my first bike a couple weeks ago and it has 2700 miles on it and ive been wanting to change the oil just so i can keep track of the maintaince on it. ive been reading and reading about what oil and filter to use and i have decided to run amsoil with the stock filter. but my question is what do you guys think about putting the BG moa oil additive in aswell?

Absolutely you can run MOA, I'd only use 1/2 of a can as 11oz. is too much.

Do you even know what BG products are?

I know BG MOA (motor oil additive) claims to improve TFOUT of a "Major Brand Oil" that they never disclose probably due to fear of a lawsuit.

AMSOIL names the products it tests against and has Since 1972.

Absolutely you can run MOA, I'd only use 1/2 of a can as 11oz. is too much.

It is not recommended to use any additives in an oil as it may upset the delicate balance of the additive packages.

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Bob

I know BG MOA (motor oil additive) claims to improve TFOUT of a "Major Brand Oil" that they never disclose probably due to fear of a lawsuit.

AMSOIL names the products it tests against and has Since 1972.



It is not recommended to use any additives in an oil as it may upset the delicate balance of the additive packages.

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Bob

Probably doesn't disclose due to lawsuit?!? Where do you get this stuff from?

Define delicate balance...

Most companies will not diclose the competitors brand for fear of suit.

All additive packages are not the same. Some companies have proprietary additives in addition. The additives are blended to each companies own formulation to do the job required for their specific stock.

The use of an additive not formulted by the oil companies Chemists can be detrimental to the performance of the oil.

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Bob

Most companies will not diclose the competitors brand for fear of suit.

All additive packages are not the same. Some companies have proprietary additives in addition. The additives are blended to each companies own formulation to do the job required for their specific stock.

The use of an additive not formulted by the oil companies Chemists can be detrimental to the performance of the oil.

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Bob



Spoken like a loyal Party Member.

If you know nothing of BG Products, speak nothing of them.

If you know nothing of BG Products, speak nothing of them.

If you know nothing of an additives performance in oil, don't recommend one.

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Bob

If you know nothing of an additives performance in oil, don't recommend one.

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Bob

Oh, I know a ton of stuff about oil and additives. You regurgitate AMSOIL facts and use it as your own original thoughts. I'm not getting in a pissing match with a multi level marketer. Again, if you don't know, don't say.

Again, if you don't know, don't say.

Heed your own words. I have been selling AMSOIL Since 1984 and have been in business Since 1972.

I have no idea what you are trying to imply and wonder what AMSOIL's Marketing has to do with the facts of this.

Please, piss on... You started it.

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Bob

run motul 300v no additives needed. sorry amsoil guy, my bike lost power with your oil. (bike, didnt say anything bout car, or other stuff i used it in) but EVERYTHING i work on with 2 wheels gets motul. period.

And the 300V is an excellent oil. I know I have never said different.

Curious.... Which AMSOIL product did you use ?

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Bob

10 30 and 10 40 motorcycle synthetic.

run motul 300v no additives needed. sorry amsoil guy, my bike lost power with your oil. (bike, didnt say anything bout car, or other stuff i used it in) but EVERYTHING i work on with 2 wheels gets motul. period.

A trillion people run amsoil in their bike and this is the first thing I've ever heard of a bike loosing power for running amsoil. You must have dyno'd a before and after using Amsoil right?

A trillion people run amsoil in their bike and this is the first thing I've ever heard of a bike loosing power for running amsoil. You must have dyno'd a before and after using Amsoil right?

yep. and its not the first time ive seen it. some bikes just dont like it. most of the drag racers i know arent using it anymore. they use rotella cuz they change it so much. street guys still do though. ive never had a bike shift as good as they do on 300v, and ive never seen a bike lose power on it. and ive never seen 300v aerate. Sometimes you can look in the sight glass after you shut the bike off and see bubbles in the amsoil.

ive never had a bike shift as good as they do on 300v, and ive never seen a bike lose power on it. and ive never seen 300v aerate. Sometimes you can look in the sight glass after you shut the bike off and see bubbles in the amsoil.Strangely enough my old k3 1000 shifted better with liqui-moly synthetic compared to 300v (it was ~10.5k miles on the clock when I sold it).

10W-30 and 10W-40 don't say anything as we have 5 or so different ones. That is why I asked by Product Code.

But regardless, you just said you Dyno'd it before and after.. I will call "Operator Error" as I have seen too many Dyno results to the opposite.

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Bob

I'm going to jump in here just because I haven't pissed anyone off lately. The use of oil additives in an engine in good condition is a waste of money and can possibly create an issue. I DO use oil additives in my 200k mile firebird that burns oil like crazy and has low oil pressure, but that is a completely different scenario and if it blows it blows, I've got backups waiting in the garage. As far as BG products go, there are a dozen other companies claiming they are the best too and I have experience with many of them. And none of them are as spectacular as they claim. All of these companies do NOT sell motor oil, rather they sell a line of additives, flushes, etc.... So of course they are going to make all kinds of crazy claims as they have to sell their product somehow. If you look at all of the marketing done for any product you will see many companies perform a demo using a "leading competitor's" product, but they will not name the brand. That is because if they make such a claim and cannot back it up they can and sometimes do face a lawsuit. You will, on less common occasions, see a comparison where all of the products are named. That is because it is a legitimate test performed and the results can be repeated. Obviously, if you are a company, lets use mobil as an example. And you advertise that your oil (mobil) will make an engine last twive as long as an engine using valvoline. You can be sure that valvoline is going to challenge that statement and if they find it false they will obviously take legal action. So yes, naming the products that are being compared does have significance. I feel that amsoil is a great product and there are others too. I also like mobil products. I have no experience with motul but from what I have seen and heard I'm sure it is a good product too. But, NONE of these products need an additive, nor will using an additive make them better necessarily. Also, I do not know of any motorcycle specific additives. And since our bikes use the engine oil for the clutch and transmission, an oil additive formulated for a car engine may have chemicals in it that may adversely affect the clutch and the transmission. Now, as far as who am I and what makes me so special that my opinion must mean something. I am an ASE master certified auto tech and also have a certification in advanced engine performance as well as a boatload of GM certifications and have more than 10 years experience as a professional technician. And I have experience with BG, JB, WYNNS, and others. There are very few of these products that I will use in my own vehicle. It has also been suspected that one of these products used in automatic transmissions caused a few transmissions to fail at my current dealer and therefore we discontinued the use of the trans treatment with no such failures since.

"If you look at all of the marketing done for any product you will see many companies perform a demo using a "leading competitor's" product, but they will not name the brand. That is because if they make such a claim and cannot back it up they can and sometimes do face a lawsuit. You will, on less common occasions, see a comparison where all of the products are named."

I have also said this before.

Which is why AMSOIL is known in the industry as "The Kings of Comparison".

They have other oils tested and name the competitors.. No law suits.. Why ? Because the other companies use the same Testing Facilities and come up with the same results.

Companies like Royal Purple are famous for the "Among other brands" thing and were served a cease and desist order from BP for false advertising.

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Bob

Oh I know Bob. It's funny you mention Royal Purple as I have used it before on a freshly overhauled engine thinking it was so great because of the huge amount of support they were giving it on spike's powerblock. Then I looked at a few oil studies, one of them yours, and it usually ranked pretty low on the list. Looking back, I'm sure the support they were getting was due to sponsorship reasons and not that it was that good. Getting people to research products and actually pay attention to test results and real world results instead of what they think or feel is very difficult. You always get the guy that says " I used that in my engine for a week and it blew up" or " a friend of mine used that stuff and it caused a major leak". There is almost always an underlying problem, and looking for an answer they blame this product or that product to help understand why this problem occurred. These kind of people almost always then become obsessed with convincing everyone else not to use this product that caused them so much grief thus influencing many others' decisions on what to use. This is something that strikes a nerve with me because you wouldn't believe the amount of repairs that are performed to undo the work of a misguided individual. And yes, I have personally made such mistakes over the years. That is honestly why I do spend time trying to enlighten people about many common "myths".

In the dramatically harsh environment of an engine, there is no such thing as a "delicate balance." However, you can still mess up the chemistry of an oil bath with additives. Proceed with caution, obviously!

Marketers = liars. They get away with the darkest gray claims they can. I never, ever believe a word they say. Remember Slick 50? What a load of crap.

Amsoil is a good product and if used correctly, it's not going to mess up your engines. It just costs too much, in my opinion, for the value received. In other words, it's not THAT good.

Most synthetic oils are also good but again, more pricey than necessary for the value received.

There is no such thing as "motorcycle oil." Stop paying through the nose for that stuff. You can get virtually the same thing from the local auto parts store. "Motorcycle Oil" is just another way to separate you from your money based solely on your fear and ignorance.

My qualifications: Driving for 30 years. At no time did any pricier alternative ever give me any extra value for the extra money paid. Not once.

At one point, I used synthetic oil on the Busa and it made it shift a bit more smoothly. Not nearly enough to justify the cost, though, so I went back to dino oil and have had no problems with it. Before or since. Same thing with the Z-28, the Gixxer 1000, the GMC 3500 and countless other Honda's and Chevy's and Fords and Pontiacs over the years.

Are there shitty oils out there? Probably. But most of the name brands will serve you well. I just buy the least expensive on the shelf when I get to the auto parts store as long as the label has the same indicators that are in the owner's manual. For the bikes, I avoid "friction modifiers" and "fuel efficiency enhancers" like the plague. In fact, I don't use those on the cages either just because I don't want a mixup in the process of changing oil on a bike.

Most claims are hype. Most extra money spent to buy those claims is wasted. True of oil, spark plugs, filters, etc. etc.

That said, it pays to educate oneself. Know what you're doing and you won't get blatantly ripped off and you won't waste money due to your ignorance.

DISCLAIMER: All of the above is based on street use. The track may be a different story but rest assured, before I just go blatantly buy a bunch of stuff for a track day or racing application, I'll know all about it first. The one track day I did do, I still used the dino oil I use on the street but I did change it right before and right after, just in case. What I SHOULD have done, is homework, to find out what I should have done. But $12 of oil and 30 minutes time didn't seem too much to be safe for that one moment in time.

--Wag--

I pretty much stopped reading and skimmed after you said there is no such thing as Motorcycle oil

Tests show otherwise and even Sport Rider Magazine did tests, due to non-belief, and found that there most certainly is a difference. ZDDP just for starters.

If your bike shifted better, there are other things that were probably better but you can't notice them.

To You, AMSOIL may be overpriced, most likely because you don't extend the drain interval which, is a good part of what you are paying for. Not to mention clutch performance additives, anti-rust and corrosion inhibitors and specific anti-wear additives developed just for motorcycles. Please read up before making such a post.

I agree that much of what is out there is hyped up marketing but, there are good products out there as well such as AMSOIL. If there was a better product and a better company, I'd sell it instead.

Companies such as Slick 50, Pro Long, Motorup, Duralube etc.. Have all been sued for false advertising by the FCC and lost. Royal Purple was threatened with suit and pulled their misleading advertising..

Has AMSOIL been sued ? Yes, but not for false advertising. They were sued by Pennzoil for the "Z" so it became AM"S"OIL.

Again... In AMSOIL's testing, the names of the competitors are listed. Anybody that believes the tests were falsified in any way, should also realize that AMSOIL would have been sued out of business many years ago.

Filters... Do make a difference. Ours has a Patented media only available from AMSOIL for auto, light truck and Motorcycles. Even the company we buy the media from cannot make filters for those applications by contract.

You also mention spark plugs. NGK has shown that spark plugs do make a difference on the Dyno. I knew this years ago from our racing days.

I respect your 30 years of driving. I hope you will respect my 39 years in business as a shop owner, Certified Tech and AMSOIL Distributor Since 1984.

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Bob

You stopped reading. Therein lies the problem.

Just sayin.'

--Wag--

I "pretty much stopped" because with that statement you are showing a lack of knowledge and research on the subject.

It is like you are believing in a conspiracy theory.

There is most definitely a difference between auto/diesel oils and Motorcycle oils.

If you have any proof otherwise, please bring it to the table.

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Bob

If oil type didn't matter, auto manufacturers wouldn't be raising their standards for what they consider to be acceptable to not void the factory warranty. Note that many of these standards began being raised around the time that powertrain coverage was increased as were acceptable oil change intervals. 2011 and newer GM's require a minimum of a synthetic blend that meets their standard. And many cadillacs (now all) starting back in 2004, require a full synthetic that also MUST meet their standards in order to not void the factory warranty. It is also worth noting that most, if not all, manufacturers will warn against using any type of additives.

If spark plugs didn't matter, then the auto industry wouldn't have transitioned from standard, to platinum, and now to iridium.

Other examples I can use would be synthetic axle lube and dexron VI trans fluid. All of those items cost the manufacturer a very significant amount of money on a mass production scale. So ask yourself, if they require these things and it costs them more money to use it what does it benefit them ? The answer is nothing. They do not specify any certain brand and many brands meet their standards so nobody can claim corporate conspiracy there.

The fact is that there is proof that types of oil do matter. This applies to motorcycles too as the manufacturers do not profit from you using "motorcycle oil" that is specified for our bikes. The only difference is that they do recommend their brand however they still give you specs for an equivalent to use.

As far as filters go, there aren't any special requirements that I know of to use as a reference. BUT, there are MANY differences in filters, some visible and some not. As far as oil filters go, I tend to stick with the manufacturer brand. I do so just because I know I will be getting something that is the exact replacement for my application. I have seen many cutaways and media samples that give you a very clear example of the differences.

When it comes to air filters, it is widely known that there are differences in quality and performance. One good example would be BMC air filters. They offer 2 different options for their filters, street and race. They will tell you outright that the race filters flow more air, but at the cost of offering less filtration. And for that reason they recommend you only use their race filters for racing. The difference with air filters is that they can only offer better airflow by using a material that has either more surface area or a looser mesh. Obviously, in racing maximum performance is important, but longevity isn't always an issue. Most racing engines are only built to last as long as the intended race. So, things like air filtration can be altered a little.

Please notice that in this post I have not argued in favor of any BRAND of product, just the TYPE of product. I can provide reference material if needed, but I will not enter into a pissing contest with anyone or resort to insults and name-calling. I can also provide proof of my credentials as well just to prove the fact that I have training and experience relating to these matters and that I'm not simply speaking out of my ass and/or basing my statements on sheer opinion or what I read on the internet.

Phil

Great post Phil !

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Bob

Thanks Bob, although, I doubt it will actually make a difference. But hey, keep fighting the good fight, right ? lol.

Honestly, I really don't want to argue with anyone. I simply try to help enlighten people and prevent them from possibly making a costly mistake. Wives-tales and myths spread by the ignorant are a real pet peeve of mine. Don't even get me started on ethanol...........

And by saying ignorant I do not mean it as an insult as the true definition of ignorant is simply a lack of knowledge, training, or information.

I know what you mean Phil.

I try to be informative but then you always get a couple that go on the attack and I try for a while to be diplomatic. Then.... well, I think you know how it goes from there.

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Bob

I know and I will admit that I have lost my temper many times and resorted to insults and name calling, but I actually do try to be civil. Anywho, on a more relevant note I have been working on an article on the basic theory and principles of engine operation off and on for a few years now. It has turned into more of a book than an article because I have tried to cover more topics and be much more thorough than any article I have seen. I have promised tons of people that I would post it on the internet once I finish. It has become a very demanding project so I only write when I get the urge. That way I can avoid skipping or shortcutting anything. I still plan to put it up once I finish it whenever that may be.

I "pretty much stopped" because with that statement you are showing a lack of knowledge and research on the subject.

Though I didn't say it in so many words, I implied exactly that! I'm here to learn and to say what my thoughts are. Your comment that you stopped reading is insulting at best.

That's okay. You have a motive to sell product. I have a motive to know what works for my equipment. What I'm using works. You apparently don't have the motivation to determine how I can make my decisions better because you haven't read what I wrote. Which is to say that you assume much.

Unless you went back and read it later and commented.

It is like you are believing in a conspiracy theory.

Nah. Just human nature.

There is most definitely a difference between auto/diesel oils and Motorcycle oils.

If you have any proof otherwise, please bring it to the table.

I suppose I can give up the difference being the label on the bottle. If you care to actually read what I wrote earlier and address specifics, I'm all ears.

Otherwise, I'm just not convinced.

--Wag--

I suppose I can give up the difference being the label on the bottle. If you care to actually read what I wrote earlier and address specifics, I'm all ears.

Otherwise, I'm just not convinced.

--Wag--


The difference lies within those labels on the bottles. The API ratings are on those labels and those API ratings are based on the intended use of the oil and it's additives such as friction modifiers, detergents, etc..... Just an FYI API stands for American Petroleum Institute which is an independent company that sets standards and tests oils from all manufacturers so that there is a uniform code for identifying oils that are appropriate for your application and that have met the standards for it's intended use. If you look in any owners manual for motorcycles or cars you will find those same API ratings under recommended oils.

Oh, and you guys do realize that we have completely derailed this thread lol.

Derailing is common place with any oil thread. LOL

Phil, one problem is, Most people have no idea what they are looking for and only take out of the Owners Manual (if they even read it) what they choose to.

They will look at the viscosity and use that as Gospel without looking any further. The Manuals are written for minimum petroleum specs and if they see the API where it usually says SG or SG/SH . They look at this and believe that an oil with an SL, SM or anything higher is acceptable where these ratings do not automatically supercede.

In automotive oil, it is virtually impossible to find an oil with SG or SG/SH as these are obsolete ratings pretty much only used in the Power Sports Industry today to identify oils that are wet clutch compatible and also sufficient amounts of ZDDP.

Many people will see the JASO Rating on the bottle and it automatically is "Motorcycle oil" and all it means is wet clutch compatible whether used in a Motorcycle or a clutched drive in rotor.

One thing to remember, they can Always find someone to agree with their side. They will always dig up antiquated information because it is on the net and try to use it to justify their opinion. They will read an article written by an electrical engineer and believe it before they believe what is written by a Lubrication Engineer again, just to support their misguided thoughts because they Can't admit they are wrong.

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Bob

Oh, and you guys do realize that we have completely derailed this thread lol.

Derailing is common place with any oil thread. LOL

We specialize in that at GDC! :lmao

Phil, one problem is, Most people have no idea what they are looking for and only take out of the Owners Manual (if they even read it) what they choose to.

They will look at the viscosity and use that as Gospel without looking any further. The Manuals are written for minimum petroleum specs and if they see the API where it usually says SG or SG/SH . They look at this and believe that an oil with an SL, SM or anything higher is acceptable where these ratings do not automatically supercede.

In automotive oil, it is virtually impossible to find an oil with SG or SG/SH as these are obsolete ratings pretty much only used in the Power Sports Industry today to identify oils that are wet clutch compatible and also sufficient amounts of ZDDP.

Many people will see the JASO Rating on the bottle and it automatically is "Motorcycle oil" and all it means is wet clutch compatible whether used in a Motorcycle or a clutched drive in rotor.

One thing to remember, they can Always find someone to agree with their side. They will always dig up antiquated information because it is on the net and try to use it to justify their opinion. They will read an article written by an electrical engineer and believe it before they believe what is written by a Lubrication Engineer again, just to support their misguided thoughts because they Can't admit they are wrong.

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Bob

Here's the bottom line (for me) which has apparently been missed and not addressed yet by either of you: If I pay double for oil will I get double the performance in gas mileage? Engine life? Speed? Power? ANYTHING?

If I only get 10% improvements by any feature of oil why would I pay double for it? With the exception of engine life, the dollar value of any 10% improvement for street use is not worth paying double for oil or for additives that double my cost for oil changes.

I used to read that using synthetics would allow you to double the time between oil changes but even that mitigation is being dispensed with lately when I read about its use in motorcycles. IOW, we're still told to change oil ever 3,000 miles.

Obviously, what I know about it goes out the window when you're talking track or race use.

So, are you interested in addressing specifics or just dismissing my comments because you think I'm ignorant and you have no interest in correcting any misinformation because so far, you still haven't addressed this primary concern of value.

:dunno

--Wag--

Wag, I just need to jump in on the point of paying double and not getting double. I really don't think that it would ever work that way.

Example only!!
Oil A is $4 per quart, and using this oil gets you 75k miles out of your engine would you keep using it, if based on your logic, Oil B costs $8 per quart and only gets you 125k miles out of your engine?

According to your logic the extra 50k miles wasn't worth the extra $16 per oil change. Where as I think you would spend the $16 per oil change to get 50k miles extra even though it isn't double.

Correct?

This entire post is directed at Wag.

Wag, I think that we are not quite on the same page and that is causing a little bit of confusion. I was making a case for the differences between motorcycle oils and other motor oils and the various different ratings used to distinguish different oils. I did also touch on the subject of differences between between conventional and synthetic, but most of my argument was a reply to you saying there is no such thing as motorcycle oil. So I think that I was a little confused about your argument on value. To me that is a two part argument based on your statements. First would be motorcycle oil vs. "car oil". The second would be conventional vs. synthetic. So my appologies for the confusion as I am more than willing to debate and/or offer up info based on my training, experience, and the information I have at my disposal. I also appreciate you remaining civil and taking the time to actually read what I have to say. That shows that you have a genuine interest in the truth and that you aren't being narrow-minded. To me debating is a good thing vs. just plain arguing. Debating is a great way to exchange info and learn as long as the parties involved are willing to listen and consider the other side of the debate. Now back to the debate at hand.

Even if you use conventional motorcycle oil it only costs about $4 a quart at most parts stores (most motorcycle shops do tend to have inflated prices). Although I prefer and advocate the use of a high quality synthetic, I would recommend at least using the proper oil for your bike. Which was what I was saying in my last post. API ratings don't necessarily coincide with the oil being conventional or synthetic, they just let you know what the oil's intended use is and what oil is recommended for a particular application. As far as value goes, the value in paying $4 a quart vs. the going rate of conventional motor oil ( I dont know because I get mine out of the bulk tank at work at employee cost) is that you are getting the proper engine, clutch, and tranny protection without adversely affecting the clutch.(I think I have adequately illustrated the differences in the chemical makeup of different oils) I know that there are people that claim to have used "car oil" in their motorcycles without any adverse effects on the clutch but luck might also be a factor there as well . You also have to consider the possible long-term adverse effects on the transmission. Also, what you or I may consider proper operation may not be the same as other people. I have seen many vehicles that the owners say are running perfect but I wouldn't trust them to get me out of a parking lot. So, if you take nothing else from this at least consider the value being the assurance that you haven't possibly risked future engine, transmission, or clutch failure. Which the cost to repair those failure definately outweighs the price difference of the oils.

One thing that I do disagree with Bob about is oil change intervals. I still change my oil every 3k even with synthetic, which I use in all of my vehicles. It is not always necessary, but I am a little OCD with the maintenance of my personal vehicles. I do know that you can go longer than 3k under the right circumstances and with the right oil, but not to the extremes that are suggested by some companies these days. Also, you will find that the type of driving has ALWAYS been a factor in recommended oil change intervals in cars but not in motorcycles for reasons that I do not know. The old 3 months/3k miles standard was mainly to avoid confusion. It is also worth noting that the majority of people drive their vehicles under what is considered extreme or harsh operating conditions as defined in the owners manual. If you do a little research (which it appears you already have) you will find an endless amount of different recommended oil change intervals. In the service manual for our bikes the recommended interval is 4k miles which sits fine with me and that is what I would recommend going by as this is coming from the people that built these machines. So in relation to value in intervals synthetic would offer less value solely based on what suzuki recommends. They do not distinguish between conventional or synthetic oil in the service manual and neither do auto manufacturers that to not require synthetic oil. The algorithm in oil life monitor systems doesn't appear to be any different on GM cars regardless of the type of oil required.

I personally see the results of going too long between oil changes and have to make engine repairs as a result on a daily basis. Even though most auto manufacturers are offering powertrain coverage up to 100k, if you cannot produce proof of regular maintenance they do not have to cover needed repairs that are a direct result of abuse or neglect.

On a side note, it is also worth noting that the introduction of oil life monitoring systems and extended oil change intervals by auto manufacturers is largely due to pressure from various agencies to reduce pollution and oil usage/waste. Because of this the oil companies followed suit by producing oils that they claim will offer increased mileage between oil changes. I do have my doubts about these oils marketed as an extended life oil.

That should pretty much cover the value of using motorcycle oil vs. other motor oils among other things. The value there would be something you would only realize on a long-term basis . I will address the difference in value between conventional and synthetic in another post as I know my posts are long-winded to put it mildly and I'm pretty well spent for the day.

I think we have to look at it from this point. Whether Synthetic or Petroleum, all oils are not alike in either category. We should also look at Performance instead of Base Stock comprisal.

Relating to what Phil said, the API says that over 98% of driving is "Severe Service". Therefore if Severe Service intervals are not listed in the manual, the interval listed should be reduced by 50%.

A good part of what you pay for with AMSOIL is the additives to give you 2 times the OEM Interval even in Severe Service. (Stock engines, no mods including air filter).

I don't take what AMSOIL says as Gospel even though they have been shown to be correct.

A guy know in Orlando with a Harley had Syn 3 in it (good oil). At approximately 3250 miles, the oil was sent in for analysis and it came back where it had sheared to a 40 weight and was recommended to change. He install AMSOIL 20W-50, rode around Orlando, rode to Sturgis and back and then Orlando more. 9731 miles and the analysis came back "continue to next regular service interval.

My Harley. I run very heavy towing a trailer loaded with oil, bags and tour pack loaded and riding 2 up. I run in 100 degree heat and never remove the lowers. Oil analysis shows that at 10,000 miles the oil was still serviceable although was starting to gain in viscosity. AMSOIL M/C oils are designed to be shear stable and will actually slightly gain in viscosity where other oils shear out of grade.... My Goldwing was at 18,000, ..... My Yamaha was at about 8000 which was 1 yr.

The other things you pay for, Specific Anti-Wear additives for the tranny, Clutch performance additives to give it an MA 2 Rating, Anti-Rust and corrosion Inhibitors for short and long term storage.

There are other very good oils on the market as well and as I always say: Pick one of the Top 3 oils in our Test Report http://bestoil4you.com/files/MC_Oil_Study.pdf and you will be assured of an Excellent oil.

WAG..... I am passionate about what I do and what I really care about is that people use the proper products in their vehicles whether AMSOIL or another brand and, to dispell myths and misinformation.

I don't say the things I do about AMSOIL to sell it. I sell AMSOIL because of the things I can say about it.

Oil is the Lifeblood of your engine. The oil filter, is the Kidney that keeps it clean.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Wag, I just need to jump in on the point of paying double and not getting double. I really don't think that it would ever work that way.

Example only!!
Oil A is $4 per quart, and using this oil gets you 75k miles out of your engine would you keep using it, if based on your logic, Oil B costs $8 per quart and only gets you 125k miles out of your engine?

According to your logic the extra 50k miles wasn't worth the extra $16 per oil change. Where as I think you would spend the $16 per oil change to get 50k miles extra even though it isn't double.

Correct?

I made an exception for engine life for exactly this reason.

Nothing personal to you, Knight, but I'm starting to think what I write just doesn't get read at all.

So be it.

--Wag--

I made an exception for engine life for exactly this reason.

Nothing personal to you, Knight, but I'm starting to think what I write just doesn't get read at all.

So be it.

--Wag--


I read it, and you do say in the 2nd paragraph "with the exception of engine life", but in the first paragraph you included it. :dunno

I guess my big question would be, do you think that it is better? and if so, how much more would you be willing to pay for the peace of mind? 50%, 75%? We know not 100%.

Thanks for taking the time to write that out and yes, I think I understand where you're coming from.

Some additional comments below:

This entire post is directed at Wag.

Wag, I think that we are not quite on the same page and that is causing a little bit of confusion. I was making a case for the differences between motorcycle oils and other motor oils and the various different ratings used to distinguish different oils. I did also touch on the subject of differences between between conventional and synthetic, but most of my argument was a reply to you saying there is no such thing as motorcycle oil. So I think that I was a little confused about your argument on value. To me that is a two part argument based on your statements. First would be motorcycle oil vs. "car oil". The second would be conventional vs. synthetic. So my appologies for the confusion as I am more than willing to debate and/or offer up info based on my training, experience, and the information I have at my disposal. I also appreciate you remaining civil and taking the time to actually read what I have to say. That shows that you have a genuine interest in the truth and that you aren't being narrow-minded. To me debating is a good thing vs. just plain arguing. Debating is a great way to exchange info and learn as long as the parties involved are willing to listen and consider the other side of the debate. Now back to the debate at hand.

I try to keep debate to the religion/politics forum. :) Here, I like the discussion which educates.

Even if you use conventional motorcycle oil it only costs about $4 a quart at most parts stores (most motorcycle shops do tend to have inflated prices). Although I prefer and advocate the use of a high quality synthetic, I would recommend at least using the proper oil for your bike.

I suppose that "proper" could range all over the place depending on your background, experience, education, etc. What the owner's manual says to use is "proper" within that context, of course. Thus far, experience has indicated that it's working without fail. Additionally, the manual says change the oil every 3,000 miles (unless I fail to remember correctly). For the Camaro, it says every 7,500 miles but I do more stop and go driving and I drive in a dusty environment so I usually change it every 5,000 miles.

I also change filter on every oil change, without fail. Some people only change filter on every other change.

As a result, the Camaro has 212,000 miles. The Busa, 67,000 miles. The Gixxer 1000, 31,000 miles and the GMC 3500 has 105,000 miles. All of them pull hard like they did new. The old 1978 Honda Civic I once had went 325,000miles, give or take a few before it was totaled. The Pontiac Bonneville I had went 100,000 miles or so before my old man drove it into the river (long story for another place! :) ).

Obviously, there's more to maintenance than just oil changes but the type of oils I'm using and the change intervals I use are not causing harm so far. Other people I know do their maintenance similarly and with similar results. It's anecdotal, I'm well aware but it weighs somewhat heavy because it isn't just me.

I'm off track now. Sorry. The point is, though, it was all done with conventional oil which has the API certs as recommended in the owner's manuals for each vehicle.

Which was what I was saying in my last post. API ratings don't necessarily coincide with the oil being conventional or synthetic, they just let you know what the oil's intended use is and what oil is recommended for a particular application.

That, I actually do understand but it's a good point that others should attend to. Just because an oil is synthetic doesn't mean it's suited to a particular application. I hear/read argument on a regular basis about how much better synthetic is than conventional which is probably true in some respects but then the argument talks about other issues which are unrelated and make no sense without a discussion about API.

As far as value goes, the value in paying $4 a quart vs. the going rate of conventional motor oil ( I dont know because I get mine out of the bulk tank at work at employee cost) is that you are getting the proper engine, clutch, and tranny protection without adversely affecting the clutch.

You point is very valid, I agree. It comes under the engine maintenance issue I raised earlier, though. I only mention it as an exception because I have zero experience with an engine actually lasting longer because of using a "motorcycle oil" and getting more life out of it. I also haven't seen any oil-related failures in a motorcycle engine. Lastly, I definitely don't have the facilities to test it personally.

To be fair, the only claims I've encountered about motorcycle specific oils have come from the oil manufacturers themselves so without being overly paranoid about conspiracies (who, me? :dunno), I can't shake the suspicion that there is at least some degree of potential bias in the marketing effort. People have to make a living, of course. But the kicker is, you can get "motorcycle oil" which seems to have the exact same API ratings as conventional oils. :scratch Unless things have changed very recently.

To be additionally fair, I may someday have to eat my words and will cheerfully do so, with my engine/clutch/tranny repair bill for dessert. :lmao

(I think I have adequately illustrated the differences in the chemical makeup of different oils) I know that there are people that claim to have used "car oil" in their motorcycles without any adverse effects on the clutch but luck might also be a factor there as well.

I wouldn't be quite so adamant here if I were the only lucky bastard out there with good results. It's just too many vehicles in my own hands which have had success as listed above. Maybe those extended life cycles would happen with any car, I dunno. I seem to remember a test video on line which showed a Honda motorcycle being run with no oil for several hours with no apparent damage to the engine until they put it to very high RPM's for an extended period of time. Maybe THOSE are the lucky guys!

You also have to consider the possible long-term adverse effects on the transmission. Also, what you or I may consider proper operation may not be the same as other people. I have seen many vehicles that the owners say are running perfect but I wouldn't trust them to get me out of a parking lot.

I can relate. My old man was notorious for letting cars practically fall apart out from underneath his sorry ass!

Nevertheless, I think with the examples I indicated above, I'm doing okay in this regard.

So, if you take nothing else from this at least consider the value being the assurance that you haven't possibly risked future engine, transmission, or clutch failure. Which the cost to repair those failure definately outweighs the price difference of the oils.

It's only partly a cost factor and, of course, if I paid double for oil changes and got 10% longer life from my engine/tranny/clutch, that would make it more worthwhile. I think. The time interval between repairs still has to be considered so if, after 67,000 miles, I have to replace 2nd gear but could have gone 75,000 miles, either way, I still have the same bill in close proximity to when I would have had it anyway. Changing oils might not prevent the bill, only delay it so the question then becomes, "Is the added delay in the repair worth the extra 6,500 miles? 13,000 miles? Doubtful we could even put a number on it, considering all of the additional variables in the equation.

One thing that I do disagree with Bob about is oil change intervals. I still change my oil every 3k even with synthetic, which I use in all of my vehicles. It is not always necessary, but I am a little OCD with the maintenance of my personal vehicles. I do know that you can go longer than 3k under the right circumstances and with the right oil, but not to the extremes that are suggested by some companies these days. Also, you will find that the type of driving has ALWAYS been a factor in recommended oil change intervals in cars but not in motorcycles for reasons that I do not know.

I don't know either. I change the bike oil ever 3,000 miles and it's always pretty black. I know you can't tell just by looking but dang, man! That's pretty nasty. The car, as I mentioned before, recommends 7,500 but I change it much sooner than that.

And always with a filter change in all cases.

The old 3 months/3k miles standard was mainly to avoid confusion. It is also worth noting that the majority of people drive their vehicles under what is considered extreme or harsh operating conditions as defined in the owners manual. If you do a little research (which it appears you already have) you will find an endless amount of different recommended oil change intervals. In the service manual for our bikes the recommended interval is 4k miles which sits fine with me and that is what I would recommend going by as this is coming from the people that built these machines. So in relation to value in intervals synthetic would offer less value solely based on what suzuki recommends. They do not distinguish between conventional or synthetic oil in the service manual and neither do auto manufacturers that to not require synthetic oil. The algorithm in oil life monitor systems doesn't appear to be any different on GM cars regardless of the type of oil required.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to be hearing about newer cars now requiring synthetic oils. Ford trucks, maybe? Anyhoo, it's made me wonder about it in recent months but I haven't looked into it yet.

(continued)

I personally see the results of going too long between oil changes and have to make engine repairs as a result on a daily basis.

You may see me for a lot of things but if it's oil-related, it's for a change only! :D

Even though most auto manufacturers are offering powertrain coverage up to 100k, if you cannot produce proof of regular maintenance they do not have to cover needed repairs that are a direct result of abuse or neglect.

On a side note, it is also worth noting that the introduction of oil life monitoring systems and extended oil change intervals by auto manufacturers is largely due to pressure from various agencies to reduce pollution and oil usage/waste. Because of this the oil companies followed suit by producing oils that they claim will offer increased mileage between oil changes. I do have my doubts about these oils marketed as an extended life oil.

I have doubts too which thus far have not been allayed, particularly with regard to car applications. For motorcycle specific oils, I'm still unresolved.

That should pretty much cover the value of using motorcycle oil vs. other motor oils among other things. The value there would be something you would only realize on a long-term basis . I will address the difference in value between conventional and synthetic in another post as I know my posts are long-winded to put it mildly and I'm pretty well spent for the day.

"Long-term basis" may be another phrase we have to define more precisely. My old man would have thought a car which lasted 50,000 miles was doing well but :dunno Technology was a lot different 40 years ago.

I'm interested in your synthetic vs. conventional discussion, of course. I'm about used up too, though. It can wait a bit. I don't think my tranny is going to blow out on me between now and then! :D

Again, thanks for taking the time to read and to respond.

--Wag--

WAG..... I am passionate about what I do and what I really care about is that people use the proper products in their vehicles whether AMSOIL or another brand and, to dispell myths and misinformation.

I don't say the things I do about AMSOIL to sell it. I sell AMSOIL because of the things I can say about it.

Obviously, you believe in your product and for that, I give you full kudos and admiration.

One thing that is clear to me is that my own resistance to changing oil and my expectations for it has a lot to do with the fact that the practices and habits I have right now are still working for me. To change something that is a recognized problem is easy. The change something that's already working well is a bit more of an issue.

I'm also the first to realize that I'm going to be tough to persuade but, of course, to risk a $12,000 machine or a $2,500 repair bill on a new oil or new change interval is something to ponder. Not that I think using Amsoil (or any other appropriate oil) is going to cause colossal failure but I do tend to get hung up on principle when it comes right down to it. The principle being, of course, Is it really that much different? (In addition to the principle of value given/received, of course.)

I think we have to look at it from this point. Whether Synthetic or Petroleum, all oils are not alike in either category. We should also look at Performance instead of Base Stock comprisal.

Relating to what Phil said, the API says that over 98% of driving is "Severe Service". Therefore if Severe Service intervals are not listed in the manual, the interval listed should be reduced by 50%.

A good part of what you pay for with AMSOIL is the additives to give you 2 times the OEM Interval even in Severe Service. (Stock engines, no mods including air filter).

I don't take what AMSOIL says as Gospel even though they have been shown to be correct.

A guy know in Orlando with a Harley had Syn 3 in it (good oil). At approximately 3250 miles, the oil was sent in for analysis and it came back where it had sheared to a 40 weight and was recommended to change. He install AMSOIL 20W-50, rode around Orlando, rode to Sturgis and back and then Orlando more. 9731 miles and the analysis came back "continue to next regular service interval.

My Harley. I run very heavy towing a trailer loaded with oil, bags and tour pack loaded and riding 2 up. I run in 100 degree heat and never remove the lowers. Oil analysis shows that at 10,000 miles the oil was still serviceable although was starting to gain in viscosity. AMSOIL M/C oils are designed to be shear stable and will actually slightly gain in viscosity where other oils shear out of grade.... My Goldwing was at 18,000, ..... My Yamaha was at about 8000 which was 1 yr.

The other things you pay for, Specific Anti-Wear additives for the tranny, Clutch performance additives to give it an MA 2 Rating, Anti-Rust and corrosion Inhibitors for short and long term storage.

Those are noteworthy examples, very much worth consideration.

This last paragraph, however, is the most interesting because therein lies the true potential for added value of the motorcycle specific product. I'll do some more reading on it.

There are other very good oils on the market as well and as I always say: Pick one of the Top 3 oils in our Test Report http://bestoil4you.com/files/MC_Oil_Study.pdf and you will be assured of an Excellent oil.

WAG..... I am passionate about what I do and what I really care about is that people use the proper products in their vehicles whether AMSOIL or another brand and, to dispell myths and misinformation.

I don't say the things I do about AMSOIL to sell it. I sell AMSOIL because of the things I can say about it.

Oil is the Lifeblood of your engine. The oil filter, is the Kidney that keeps it clean.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Thanks for writing that up.

--Wag--

I read it, and you do say in the 2nd paragraph "with the exception of engine life", but in the first paragraph you included it. :dunno

Maybe a technicality but I was listing possibilities in the first instance which required me to eliminate it in the second. My bad for not be 100% clear.

I guess my big question would be, do you think that it is better? and if so, how much more would you be willing to pay for the peace of mind? 50%, 75%? We know not 100%.

Peace of mind is pretty much what I have now. :D I'm pretty confident that what I'm practicing is working. As I mentioned above, though, it's possible I could eventually eat those words!

--Wag--

As I mentioned above, though, it's possible I could eventually eat those words!

--Wag--

As we all could, as has been mentioned many times, there are no guarantees on anything.

is 300v on the white paper? been a long time since i read it.

Just a quick note to say I have read the above posts but don't have the time to reply at the moment. As soon as I get the chance the next couple of days I will post a reply. I try to give anything that I do my full attention and that includes threads like this that are a little more in-depth.

Thanks,
Phil

Good on ya, Phil.

--Wag--

is 300v on the white paper? been a long time since i read it.

It is on the new White Paper... Click the link in my Sig.

Since the 1st test, other oils have reformulated to do better than 300V.

AMSOIL reformulated after the second tests were performed.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

Good on ya, Phil.

--Wag--

Just didn't want it to look like I "flaked out" and quit replying because I had run out of B.S. to sell. lol

Phil

^^ :lmao

--Wag--

Ok, let me try to get back on track here lol. A lot has been said since my last "technical" post. Firstly, what I was referring to as a "debate" is more of a discussion and a civil one at that (it seems like it is so hard to have a civil discussion like this on the internet lol). But, overall I think we are all on the same page there.

I am also going to be completely honest and say outright that when speaking in terms of engines and such nothing is definite. So many factors affect the longevity of an engine and mechanical failures that nothing is absolute. One can do one's best to properly maintain an engine "perfectly" and still encounter any range of mechanical failures. The fact remains, though, that proper upkeep does help to ensure a better chance of avoiding mechanical failures and an engine lasting longer. It is also true that some engines are more rugged than others and can endure much more mistreatment/neglect/abuse than others.

When it comes to the additives used in motor oils, there is little info to be had on specifics since each manufacturer uses their own proprietary blend. I am not a chemist so I cannot discuss all of the differences in the chemical makeup of different oils. I can. however, discuss things such as detergents, friction modifiers, and ZDDP that have an effect on the oil's use and performance.

It is the presence/absence and amounts of these (and other) different additives that differentiates their applications. I know this point has been mentioned before, but I am going to go a little more in-depth.

ZDDP (Zinc Dialkyldithiophosphate) is an anti-wear compound found in most lubricants in varying amounts. It can also be found in high levels in STP oil treatment and GM EOS assembly lubricant among other products. As far as I know it is found in higher levels in motorcycle oils than car oils and the amount is important. That is important because of many reasons. For one the engines in our motorcycles operate at extreme RPM's and under heavy loads. Also, smaller engines are much more sensitive to clearances so what would be considered little wear in a larger car engine would be extreme wear in a motorcycle engine. And then, there comes the transmission as well. The transmission is mechanically simple enough to understand that anything in the oil to reduce wear as much as possible is necessary.

Friction modifiers are good, but not for a wet clutch as they tend to make them prone to slippage. So it is absent in motorcycle oil or at very low levels from what I understand. I do not know the effects of detergents or the varying levels in different oils. I just pointed out that there are different levels of detergents in different types of oils such as diesel oil and that is also another factor in the oil's API rating.

I hope that this better illustrates the differences in oils and why it is recommended to use the right oil for the application.

Gotta go for now, but I'll get back to the other parts of the topic tomorrow night.

That all makes sense. What gets me is that "motorcycle oil" doesn't really seem to have THAT much more in it, at least, not enough to justify the price differential.

Looking forward to your next post.

--Wag--

ZPPD is not more prevalent in motorcycle oils than it is in automobile oils. It hasn't even been removed from oils like lots of people were led to believe.

API ratings are very thinly veiled. To get an API rating, you have 20 tries to get your oil to pass the minimum. Once you do, you never need to have it retested. That's not to say a good oil won't pass it's muster and stay blended correctly, but there is no enforcement.

I'm still waiting for the name of the elusive motorcycle wet clutch additive, if anyone can name it...I'm all ears.

As far as the "Energy Conserving", the amount of molybdenum is negligible and I haven't seen any modern bikes slipping from oil alone. I run a 0w-30 automobile (GASP) oil in both of my bike, which make well into the 160's for bhp and never had any issue. I'm sure people on here know a guy that knows a guy that's seen a bike slip and can swear to it in court.

That all makes sense. What gets me is that "motorcycle oil" doesn't really seem to have THAT much more in it, at least, not enough to justify the price differential.

Looking forward to your next post.

--Wag--

As with anything, there are a few that are overpriced. The M/C oils do have a higher ZDDP and also have to meet ash limits, some are designed with Clutch Performance additives to give an MA2 Rating, Anti-Rust and corrosion inhibitors and some have specific Anti-wear additives for the tranny. Another thing to look for is Anti-foaming, copper corrosion and shear stability.

The problem comes down to finding out which oil will do these things.

ZPPD is not more prevalent in motorcycle oils than it is in automobile oils. It hasn't even been removed from oils like lots of people were led to believe.

API ratings are very thinly veiled. To get an API rating, you have 20 tries to get your oil to pass the minimum. Once you do, you never need to have it retested. That's not to say a good oil won't pass it's muster and stay blended correctly, but there is no enforcement.

I'm still waiting for the name of the elusive motorcycle wet clutch additive, if anyone can name it...I'm all ears.

As far as the "Energy Conserving", the amount of molybdenum is negligible and I haven't seen any modern bikes slipping from oil alone. I run a 0w-30 automobile (GASP) oil in both of my bike, which make well into the 160's for bhp and never had any issue. I'm sure people on here know a guy that knows a guy that's seen a bike slip and can swear to it in court.

boom, Most M/C oils do have a higher ZDDP Rating, even the Sport Bike Rider article showed this. Most M/C's utilize a flat or bucket style lifter which are prone to higher amounts of wear. Most auto oils and even diesel oils have reduced ZDDP enough to wear a flat cam and Will have problems.

M/C oils use an obsolete API Rating of SG or SG/SH in which those ratings show that they have no friction modifiers to have an adverse effect on wet clutches. It is more than just "tries" to get an API Rating. They must disclose everything that is in the oil and the oils are tested. All to the tune of about $300,000 which they have to recoup in the price of the oil.

I know North Carolina will actually go in on occasion and literally pull oils off the shelf and test them. About 1 in 5 oils were found to meet the specifications on the label.

The API SG or SG/SH is what should be looked at instead of "Energy Conserving" as there are additives that could harm the clutch that are not included in the "Energy Conserving" label. You are correct on Moly, even Honda has oils with and without Moly.

As for your experience with light weight auto oils. This Was even true with AMSOIL in the past but the formulations in the oils changed and were then recommended not to be used in wet clutch applications. Some of the oils were recently reformulated again to meet the new API SN and GM dexos1 classification and should definitely not be used in a M/C application.

Personally, I just don't think it is worth the gamble to use an auto oil unless it has the proper ratings.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

ZPPD is not more prevalent in motorcycle oils than it is in automobile oils. It hasn't even been removed from oils like lots of people were led to believe.

API ratings are very thinly veiled. To get an API rating, you have 20 tries to get your oil to pass the minimum. Once you do, you never need to have it retested. That's not to say a good oil won't pass it's muster and stay blended correctly, but there is no enforcement.

I'm still waiting for the name of the elusive motorcycle wet clutch additive, if anyone can name it...I'm all ears.

As far as the "Energy Conserving", the amount of molybdenum is negligible and I haven't seen any modern bikes slipping from oil alone. I run a 0w-30 automobile (GASP) oil in both of my bike, which make well into the 160's for bhp and never had any issue. I'm sure people on here know a guy that knows a guy that's seen a bike slip and can swear to it in court.


Firstly, even if you check on wikipedia, you will find that ZDDP has all but been removed from regular car oils due to it's adverse affect on catalytic converters. And if you look around there are even car oils made specifically with higher amounts of ZDDP because of that.

Second, you have things backwards with wet clutches. The friction modifiers present in car oils are ABSENT from motorcycle oils. And the name is right there in front of you.....FRICTION MODIFIERS. Friction modifiers can be any of a number of different chemicals that do what the name implies and MODIFY FRICTION. If you don't believe in the effect of friction modifiers on things such as clutches, go find a car with a clutch style limited slip differential. Drain the fluid from it and then fill it with standard gear lube and see what happens. It will eventually begin to chatter like a bitch and if driven long enough (only a few thousand miles) the clutch packs will gall so badly they will have to be replaced. To this day I have to make repairs to such differentials due to the absence or low level of friction modifiers in the gear lube. I have even seen certain GM vehicles that had a pinion seal replaced under a recall that only lost a half quart of fluid or less have such issues. They had the fluid level topped off without adding limited slip additive and shortly returned with a complaint about a grinding sound from the rear when making tight turns. The first repair attempt was to drain the fluid and refill the diff. with new fluid and the proper amount of LSD additive then drive in a number of circle 8's. If that doesn't fix them we have to replace the clutch packs (a similar problem happens with late model corvettes as well). Since only clutch style differentials require such high levels of friction modifiers most gear lubes do not contain enough and a supplemental additive must be used in order for them to operate properly. There are gear lubes out there that already contain the proper amounts of friction modifiers and they will say so on the bottle. That was an extreme example of how friction modifiers affect..... well, friction. The reason clutch style LSD's REQUIRE higher levels of friction modifiers is so that they CAN slip in order to provide smooth operation around corners (hence the name LIMITED slip). It is also important to say that the reason the clutches in LDS's "go bad" when friction modifiers are not present is because they are made out of an aggressive compound that contains a lot of metallics unlike the fiber type clutches in our bikes. Because of the highly metallic compound used they will gall and cause chatter when LSD additive isn't used. The clutch packs still function after galling and do not deteriorate they have to be replaced because once galled they will alvays chatter when slipping. The clutches in our bikes use fiber type clutches and obviously they encounter plenty of slip conditions. But as with any fiber-based wet clutch such as in our bikes and those found in automatic transmissions, when you allow too much slippage you will burn the frictions and ruin them eventually.

That all makes sense. What gets me is that "motorcycle oil" doesn't really seem to have THAT much more in it, at least, not enough to justify the price differential.

Looking forward to your next post.

--Wag--

Obviously ZDDP is only one part of the equation, but it is one of several things that are different. Something interesting that I read in the article that is linked in Bob's sig regarding ZDDP is that just quantity alone is not as important as the quality. But, obviously if the levels are very low even the quality isn't enough to make a difference.

As far as the mileage on your vehicles, your car and truck should be able to go that long even on the "cheap stuff". I personally have an '89 firebird formula with 202k on it and it is my daily driver racking up 100 miles a day. I do use mobil 1 in it now (it's free to me), but I bought the car with 160k on it so the majority of the wear had already taken place. Your bikes are the important factor in this discussion.

The mileages are fairly impressive, but I would like to point out something and also ask something. First, even though you have a decent amount of mileage on them they are capable of higher mileage. We don't see as many bikes with high mileage because most motorcycles just don't last that long due to wrecks or lack of riding. Second, how hard do you really ride your bikes ? To me this is important because these machines were designed to be pushed to the limit continuously. Most of us may push our bikes hard at times, but I would speculate that the majority see a little less abuse regularly. Obviously, if you operate an engine in an environment less harsh than it is intended for then it should last a long time on any motor oil. This is also very true of the clutch and tranny, maybe even more so.

Having stated all of this, I will say that I know that you are not the only person who uses car oil in motorcycles and doesn't seem to have had any negative results. For the most part most modern engines and transmissions (cars, trucks, motorcycles alike) are relatively resillient due to the quality of the materials, machine work, and assembly. That doesn't take away from the fact that using the proper lubricants and maintaining them properly is important to their reliability. And that is my main point of emphasis in this thread. I do have more to say, but I will keep my posts split up due to length. As far as the differences in motor oils goes, I think that we have beat this horse to death lol. So my future posts will focus on conventional vs. synthetic, drain intervals, pour-in additives, etc..... As a matter of fact I am going to make a new thread just so we can start "clean" and people don't have to sift through 50+ posts to get to the heart of this discussion.

Phil

I been running this shit forever and I say probably the best oil out there IMHO!!!!


http://www.oilsandlube.com/images/10w-401.jpg
:cheers

I been running this shit forever and I say probably the best oil out there IMHO!!!!

Good 'nuff.

WHY is it "the best?"

--Wag--

Good 'nuff.

WHY is it "the best?"

--Wag--

because it runs great in my moped thats why........oh wait thats a 2 smoker

:bitchslap

because it runs great in my moped thats why........oh wait thats a 2 smoker

:bitchslap

:facepalm

--Wag--

Good 'nuff.

WHY is it "the best?"

--Wag--

Read the test report in my Sig.

The Best isn't cheap
Cheap isn't The Best

Bob

my 2 cents amsoil been around for a reason. but just run what ever you think is the best or what ever make you happy. it your shit in the end treat it how you want to.