WHEN I DOWNSHIFT FROM FROM 2ND TO 1ST I FEEL A VIBRATION THAT FORCES THE GEARS TO PUSH UP VIOLENTLY BACK TO SECOND. I HAVE TO PRESS HARDER TO FALL TO FIRST PASSED THE VIBRATION. THIS ONLY HAPPENS WHILE IN HIGHER SPEEDS WHILE ANTICIPATING A STOP, (WHILE THE CLUTCH IS PULLED IN) IN SLOWER SPEEDS IT SHIFTS PROPERLY. THIS IS A NEW GSXR 600 K4 I DROPPED IT ON ITS RIGHT SIDE AND JUST ENCOUNTED THIS PROBLEM AFTER THE DROP ALTHOUGH THE DROP HAPPENED WHILE MOVING OUT OF THE GARAGE AT A VERY LOW SPEED. IS THERE ANY BODY WITH AN EXPLAINATION!? THE BIKE RUNS SUPERB BUT THIS MINOR FLAW IS GIVING ME CRACK HEAD PARANOIA.

don't shift into first at 60 mph. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/banana.gif
mine doesn't go easily into first above 20, it'll go fine if i hit it hard enough though. not worth it though... i like to be nice to my baby.
wait a few more seconds till you almost stop, then slip her into first, the drop should not affect it.

Yep, the chattering shift lever is just the bike's way of telling you she doesn't wanna go down into first yet so if you want it happen anyway you'll need to put a firm toe on it and shift with authoity.

maybe it's the bike's way of telling you to take your capslock OFF

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

j/k

Why would you downshift to 1st.. just use your brakes at that speed!

try rpm matching sillygoose. If you get teh revs right it will slip in smooth as butter. and generally, unless I am setting up for a 1st gear corner section, I wont hit first over 50 mph

Yo! shut off the caps. Second, are you chopping the throttle and trying to shift into first using engine braking to assist in your stop?

Wrong and wrong......First if it did allow you to shift you would have some major rear wheel hop.

Proper form coming to a stop. Use your brakes to slow you down not the engine. The engine is to help you move forward not slow down. Even racing when you drop a couple gears you try to get your braking done before you down shift, if you hear someone going to the rev limiter to help him slow on the track he is beating the hell out of his engine. Brake pads are cheaper to replace then engines.

So brake leading up to your stop and then before you shift into first blip the throttle a bit to rpm match. This should fix your problem.

Z-man

"The engine is to help you move forward not slow down."

What? http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wtf.gif

While the primary function of the engine is to put the bike in motion, there are forces present that also make it perfectly viable to help slow you down. Motorcycle engines have fairly high compression ratios in comparison to most other vehicles. This compression resists un-throttled rotation of the engine as the pistons rise, compressing the mixture in the cylinders with no throttling. This static resistance (only static while in gear) slows the rpm's of the engine as the momentum energy of the bike is transfered from the chain, to the drive sprocket, the tranny, then the crank then the compressing pistons creating the resistance as the momentum energy is dispersed as heat energy.

Now, don't take this to mean that I am implying you should use engine braking in place of brakes, I am not saying that, just noting that engine braking is a good way to slow down in little amounts, say while in a turn and you need to slow a little...you back off the throttle a little, right?

I use engine braking with the brakes all the time. Front brakes, rear brakes and downshifting..use all three of them and make a habit of using all three so when you have to stop really fast, your reaction is to use all three.

-Jay

Skizit750 said:
"The engine is to help you move forward not slow down."

What? http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wtf.gif

Now, don't take this to mean that I am implying you should use engine braking in place of brakes, I am not saying that, just noting that engine braking is a good way to slow down in little amounts, say while in a turn and you need to slow a little...you back off the throttle a little, right?

I use engine braking with the brakes all the time. Front brakes, rear brakes and downshifting..use all three of them and make a habit of using all three so when you have to stop really fast, your reaction is to use all three.

-Jay



Jay,

Not looking to get into a pissing match on proper form and I'm not trying to flame you. But, just because you do something does not mean that it is correct way to do it. Judging from your avatar, it looks like you've been on the track. Ever see those guys going from a straight away to the next turn drop two gears just about hit the rev limiter and then push the brakes? They are using engine to brake and beating the snot out of their engine. What they should be doing is braking and then downshifting. I'm not saying that through the process you should put the bike in neutral and coast as you brake, but if he is having problems he described downshifting, it probably means he isn't braking enough before he downshifts.

If you need a reference, pick up one of the better motorcycle riding instruction books. I just finished reading The softer side of motorcycle racing by Keith Code and he goes into detail as to why engine braking is bad.

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Z

Christ sake, man, I don't downshift that hard. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I downshift from third through first gradually, maybe getting a 5000 rpm'er once in a while, but I never downshift to make it go higher that 5000 rpms.

Nor in track conditions would I engine brake THAT hard. I prefer smooth transitions between gears, not chaotic rear-end shake/wobble and a nut crunching slide into the gas tank.

I am nice to my bike.

-Jay

I think we are on the same page. I was just at the track today and following a few guys into turns....I'm glad I'm not their engine. It seemed like rather then brake and downshift. It was blip the throttle almost to red line have the engine screaming and then start to brake. Unreal and very bad form.

Z

zman said:
Even racing when you drop a couple gears you try to get your braking done before you down shift, Brake pads are cheaper to replace then engines.

So brake leading up to your stop and then before you shift into first blip the throttle a bit to rpm match. This should fix your problem.

Z-man



On the racing comment, http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wtf.gif. Waiting to hit your downshifts after braking? If you can't hit your downshifts while on the brakes you shouldn't be racing, period. It's not hard to downshifts without reving the hell out of the motor while braking. It's like anything with riding, it just takes practice.

I totally agree with the brake pads are cheaper part and even clutch plates are cheap compared to a rebuild but the motor can be a powerful and effective way to slow down on the track.

I don't see any point in down shifting into 1st gear while coming to a stop while riding the street. 2nd gear I can understand, then pull the clutch or go to neutral to finish the stop. I can't think of one track where using 1st gear was necessary.

Philbie said:

On the racing comment, http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wtf.gif. Waiting to hit your downshifts after braking? If you can't hit your downshifts while on the brakes you shouldn't be racing, period. It's not hard to downshifts without reving the hell out of the motor while braking. It's like anything with riding, it just takes practice.




Maybe a better way to phrase it would be don't downshift before you begin to brake. Begin the braking process before you downshift and downshift as late as you can before letting out the clutch so the majority of your slow down is complete.

Z

I agree. There are very few exceptions and those are the few track situations where braking may not be necessary but a gear change is.

How did you do this weekend Z? You did race correct?

Nope not this weekend, I was at Pocono Speedway with Team Promotion on Thursday just getting a track day in. Saturday and Sunday this week I'm headed down to Summit for a couple days of practice, I'm not quite ready for prime time.

Z

Engine braking is a bad habit. Period. As was said before engine speed can be used to MODULATE speed at the apex of a turn for minor adjustments to lines. However, other techniques should be applied for the majority of braking dutes, the primary option being THE BRAKES. Trailbraking is a much better option to engine braking, since when it is applied correctly will not load up the front end as much as engine braking (even in mid corner)...

So to cover all bases. You CAN use engine braking. But in the majority of cases YOU SHOULD NOT use engine braking...

As for the original post. Squeeze a little harder on the right lever and downshift a little slower. Practice braking, downshifting and rpm matching to make smoother stops.

*nods* Yah blip the throttle.

But only after you turn off your caps lock!! *rubs eyes*

I down shift to slow down WAAAAY more than I brake to slow down if I can help it. Personal prefference.

Maybe old school but last I knew you are looking at doing head gasket damage not braking properly before using some of the engines potential for braking. Be sure the engine is warmed up first.

Head gasket damage?? Interesting. Because my engine does get dirty and I make it a piont to engine brake to slow down instead of braking. Not to the point of the rev limiter but i use it. maybe to like 10 k max. Can anyone who KNOWS add anything to this head gasket thing?

Let's try this for fun. Figure a guy shows up late at a beer bust and wants to get up to speed with his pals who have already drank a 6 pack. He chugs a 6 pack. Does he hold the preasure?

Then two guys who are foot racers see each other with one on foot and the other ridding in a car going the same speed. The guy in the car knows it's a doable speed to run so hops out of the car to get to an instant 25mph. Does he get a fair treatment by the rattle battle of getting up to speed.

Then there is the simple way of figuring. Normal running going up in gears the preasure to the gasket is a pretty stable climb. So many seconds to get the rpms to what ever high mark. Down shifting you are putting that gasket up to the max preasures in less than a second. Everything isn't a take it for granted it's going to hold. We wish but not always so. Newer gaskets are better than the old days but down shifting without proper braking is going to always be the quickest shot at blowing a head gasket that I know of besides probably nitrous. Make sure the engine is all warmed up and you'll have about the most stable seal your gasket and heads can give you to keep from being not quite heated up enough to give as good of a seal as they can. They both expand when heated. Just figure when they both aren't warmed up what is the total binding preasure with out the extra expansion to give that preasure.

I hope it's easy to understand. Even metals have stress limitations. Even thin ones sandwiched between the head and block. Have fun.