Ok so I think I've hit the wall and I'm just not improving anymore. Yesterday I finally did my first trackday after 9 months of having only had 1 canyon ride. At first I was kinda concerned that I was going to be really rusty, but it actually wasn't that bad. I was up to speed pretty much the first session. But when I checked my lap times throughout the day I only managed a 1:44.

To do a comparison, this is my 5th time at that track. First time I ran a 1:51, second time on street tires I ran a 1:44, third time I ran dot race take offs I ran a 1:42, fourth time I ran some defective slicks and still managed a 1:43, and yesterday I could only muster up a 1:44 with brand new dot race tires.

So essentially I'm back tracking. And my bike has more go-fast parts than when I did my second trackday (quickshifter, dot race tires, brembo MC, vesrah srjl's). This is frustrating because I should be running in the high 1:30's.

How do you guys push through that wall? Do I need a riding school? I don't see more track time helping me any.

you need to analyse where you are losing time compared to faster riders and then work out why.

one thing that becomes increasingly more important as you get faster is your line. very small changes in your line can mean large changes in your off corner drive, and that is where time is made or lost.

But really If you wait 9 months between track days, then you cant really expect too much.

another thing is the temperature.

from day to day the weather has a huge impact on the bikes performance, altitude, humidity temperature, track temp, they all play a roll in how your bike will perform and handle.

from what ive seen in the past (i worked at a drag strip, not the same but same idea performance wise) is that about 65-70 degrees with 60% humidity is where a motor finds it "happy" zone. dont take that as a etching in stone tho, each setup is different as well as each riders technique and style, and that will also have a helping on hurting on how the machine performs from a day to day basis.

More throttle, less brake :thumbup

Race.

Seriously.

You need a reason to change your habits. I would bet that your braking points haven't changed 5-7' in the past 2-3 times you have been there.

TBH, i had gotten lazy with trackdays. I needed a reason to push myself, try harder etc. I just couldnt get motivated for track days.

One time last year me and ChrisOH were doing a track day together at Nashville. We were both WFO on the oval in the 3rd session (granted his WFO was alot faster than mine; he was on his 1k and i was on the ZX6R). But still, we were hauling ass around the track and after he passed me, out of the corner of my eye i saw a guy walking towards the grill with an apron on and cooking tools.

After just being passed at 160mph, i thought to myself "ohhh, i can has cheezburger" and pitted that lap. I just had no motivation to battle because it didnt "matter".

Another example is i had done probably 8-10 track days at a track and was stuck at the same lap time, kinda like you are. In 2 race events at that same track, i picked up 5 seconds per lap because i had a reason to push myself and work harder.

I have never been a good "practice person". Even in sports, i didnt perform well in practice. I NEED competition. If you are the same way, start racing. If you have the skills to race, go for it. I PROMISE you will pick up speed your first race weekend. :thumbup

Race.

Seriously.

You need a reason to change your habits. I would bet that your braking points haven't changed 5-7' in the past 2-3 times you have been there.

TBH, i had gotten lazy with trackdays. I needed a reason to push myself, try harder etc. I just couldnt get motivated for track days.

One time last year me and ChrisOH were doing a track day together at Nashville. We were both WFO on the oval in the 3rd session (granted his WFO was alot faster than mine; he was on his 1k and i was on the ZX6R). But still, we were hauling ass around the track and after he passed me, out of the corner of my eye i saw a guy walking towards the grill with an apron on and cooking tools.

After just being passed at 160mph, i thought to myself "ohhh, i can has cheezburger" and pitted that lap. I just had no motivation to battle because it didnt "matter".

Another example is i had done probably 8-10 track days at a track and was stuck at the same lap time, kinda like you are. In 2 race events at that same track, i picked up 5 seconds per lap because i had a reason to push myself and work harder.

I have never been a good "practice person". Even in sports, i didnt perform well in practice. I NEED competition. If you are the same way, start racing. If you have the skills to race, go for it. I PROMISE you will pick up speed your first race weekend. :thumbup

I thought about that too.... but first of all I'm going to take a riding school first. And in the process I could get my race license at the same time.

I think the thing that lacks for me at the trackday is that lacking sense of competitiveness. We're always told that its not a race, there's no need to push it, and its important to bring the bike home in one piece yada yada yada.

And when I get passed I'm just whatever, or when I am stuck behind someone I don't try to make a pass until its absolutely safe. And I don't go into turns or out of turns aggressive enough because there's no point in pushing.

So you're right, I've been saying I want to get into racing for the longest time now but was held back by lack of time and lack of money. Now I have the time, I just need to get a better job so I can have the money. :burnout

:crying I hit a wall after five track days. Your kidding right? Your going to have a really tough time once you get up to speed and work an entire season or two for a half second with 20 or 30 track days and races per year. More seat time is the way to go faster. Not sure where you are from but if you are on the east coast I'm happy to work with you at a Team Promotion track day. I'll probably coach 20 or so days this year.

Here is what you do. First RELAX don't push so hard, you might be doing more harm than good. For me when I get in a rut I go back to the basics, the stuff I learned on my very first track day.

My first question would be are you turning consistant lap times? Is every lap within a quarter to a half a second within the lap prior? If not you need to start working hard on reference points. Some other things that you probably learned on the first track day.

-Relax on the bars
-look through the turn
-setup for the turn VERY early(get off the bike WAY before you brake)
-use as many reference points as possible this is the only way to get consistant which is the only way to really get fast
-work only on one turn at a time
-have fun this is very important

Don't beat yourself up, track days are rough to get a clean lap and not being on the track for 9 months I'd say you are doing pretty good if you haven't lost much time. I raced Daytona two weeks ago for MotoGT and my times were horrible, it was my first time out for the season, and I was WAY off my normal pace. It sucks my first pro event and I stunk up the track. All you can do is swallow your pride and get back to work to improve your riding, the secret is seat time by the way. A good class will get you pointed in the right direction so you don't have to learn through mistakes and do things right the first time.

Z

:crying I hit a wall after five track days. Your kidding right? Your going to have a really tough time once you get up to speed and work an entire season or two for a half second with 20 or 30 track days and races per year. More seat time is the way to go faster. Not sure where you are from but if you are on the east coast I'm happy to work with you at a Team Promotion track day. I'll probably coach 20 or so days this year.

Here is what you do. First RELAX don't push so hard, you might be doing more harm than good. For me when I get in a rut I go back to the basics, the stuff I learned on my very first track day.

My first question would be are you turning consistant lap times? Is every lap within a quarter to a half a second within the lap prior? If not you need to start working hard on reference points. Some other things that you probably learned on the first track day.

-Relax on the bars
-look through the turn
-setup for the turn VERY early(get off the bike WAY before you brake)
-use as many reference points as possible this is the only way to get consistant which is the only way to really get fast
-work only on one turn at a time
-have fun this is very important

Don't beat yourself up, track days are rough to get a clean lap and not being on the track for 9 months I'd say you are doing pretty good if you haven't lost much time. I raced Daytona two weeks ago for MotoGT and my times were horrible, it was my first time out for the season, and I was WAY off my normal pace. It sucks my first pro event and I stunk up the track. All you can do is swallow your pride and get back to work to improve your riding, the secret is seat time by the way. A good class will get you pointed in the right direction so you don't have to learn through mistakes and do things right the first time.

Z

I'm all the way in SoCal but I think what I really need is one on one coaching. That's why I'm thinking perhaps its time for me to attend a school so I can work on the fundamentals and be more aware of what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. Up until this point I'm just doing everything based off of instincts and what I learned playing video games or watched on tv.

And to answer your question yes I was surprisingly consistent this past trackday. I was completely and utterly out of shape so I didn't even finish the entire sessions but for those couple of laps I turned I would have like a string of 1:46:xx's and that was pretty much my average time that day.

It reminded me why I use to work out so hard for trackdays, I spent most of the time out there just trying to focus so I don't crash and coping with cramps all day long I didn't really get to work on anything. That's why I want to have an all day thing at the track where I'm getting coached.... I go out and do an exercise say on body positioning or reference points or braking or accelerating.

Because I feel like I'm doing all of those things somewhat decent... but there is much much more room for improvement. I feel like I have hit that wall too early, I know I am capable of much more so that's why its frustrating. Right now I'm just contemplating about whether I should take the superbike school or do a trackday next.

Did you read A twist of the Wrist? If not, you need to. Read a chapter or two, then go out and apply/practice it. I read the book and I've never been to a track, but it helped my street riding. I guarentee your lap times will improve by reading the book.

There is also a second book, and I'm sure it gets even more in depth than the first one.

Other than that... just give it more go juice!

Both books are good, but Twist of the Wrist II is more geared towards race 'style' riding.

My first question would be are you turning consistant lap times? Is every lap within a quarter to a half a second within the lap prior? If not you need to start working hard on reference points. Some other things that you probably learned on the first track day.

-Relax on the bars
-look through the turn
-setup for the turn VERY early(get off the bike WAY before you brake)
-use as many reference points as possible this is the only way to get consistant which is the only way to really get fast
-work only on one turn at a time
-have fun this is very important



Good point.

At our level consistency means more than anything. It isn't uncommon to see a guy finish 7th, who had a single fastest lap time .5 or even 1 second faster than the guy who finished 3rd.

If somebody goes out and turns a single fastest lap of :20...but the rest of their laps look like :21, :24:, :22, :23, :21, :25 etc...they will finish far behind somebody that has consistent laps of :22-:22.5.

Keep practicing the basics, using consistent speeds and reference points until all of your laps are within 1 or even 1.5 seconds of each other. Then slowly start creeping your braking markers further (1 turn at a time...and only 5-7' at a time).

Until you are consistant and can replicate the exact same lap over and over, it makes it difficult to figure out if something is working when you change one single thing. If you try to work on more than one single thing it is very difficult to figure out what is working and what isn't.

When you come off the front straight is there any time lapse between the time you stop braking and the time you start to turn the bike and roll on the throttle? If so there is one place you can begin to change your reference point. Move it up a little tiny bit, not enough where if you are wrong you shoot off the track, but a bit more where at worst you would blow the turn.

Don't say there isn't any room for improvement here, because everyone has room for improvement here. You pick up time primarily by going faster in the fast sections then trying to go faster in the slow sections. If you can hold wide open a fraction of a second longer, it can greatly impact your times.

Also if there are two or three slow turns in a row before a short/long straight, remember all turns are not created equal and you should be working to set-up the exit of the last turn because you can only go so fast in these slow sections, but if you can get on the gas earlier in the fast section you can drop a lot of time.

Those are two nuggets for you to think about at your next track day. I am not a big fan of Keith Code's schools but of all the books I have read, his three are the best imho.

Z

some great advice from zman, thanks!

twist of the wrist 1 and 2 and total control by lee parks i believe. dont have to read them from cover to cover but if you need a reference they are great books.

some great advice from zman, thanks!

:(

.

Now that I think back.... the interesting part about this past trackday was that I was VERY consistent with my lines, and my times were also more consistent than before. The only time I ran off the track was when we were going into a turn 3 wide and I wouldn't have made it in without having all 3 of us collide. But then I wasn't braking or accelerating out of turns as fast as usual.

I'm taking the wsmc racing school next month so hopefully I can gain some improvements there. I tried reading that twist of the wrist book but most of the stuff in there I already know.

I got your back toe jam. I like his advice too. Race. I am also a so cal kid and will be dong the Track Daz new racer school April 17. I just rode Big willow springs on monday and it was awesome. only the third time I have ridden out there and my lap times were almost 10 seconds faster than my previous lap times when i rode there last june. i have been riding a lot at Laguna seca because i go to school in monterey and this has helped. Will if you plan on doing this same event we should meet up and try to push each other a little bit so we can go faster. One major deal that i just have had to over come is that its no longer time to be riding in the B group, but time to step up and ride with the big boys in the A group. B group is fun because you don't get passed by many if any people, but you can't learn to go faster without someone else faster than you around.

...
Brake later, gas earlier

B group is fun because you don't get passed by many if any people, but you can't learn to go faster without someone else faster than you around.

Exactly.

Passing everyone is fun, but you aren't improving.

another tip, i don't this this has been mentioned so far - but don't look at your lap times through the day. ;)

maybe take notes of how you felt after each session, and just look at your times at the end of the day. or, if you must, only look at lunch after all the morning sessions are done, and again in the arvo after all the sessions are done.

you have more important things to concentrate on that "oh i've gotta beat 1:44 this lap..."

also as others have said - relax. you'll probably find that your fastest laps dont actually feel like the fastest ones. if you're pushing yourself at a frantic pace you'll be in "above your head" and everything will seem to be happening at a rapid speed, which may seem fast, but in fact the only thing that's happening is there's too much information for you to process at once.

when it all seems like you're just flowing along nicely at a comfortable pace is when you will be smooth and making good times (i'd bet on it at least!)

and yeah 9 months between track time is a fair while. towards the end of last year i did 2 track days in a row. that was fantastic, it helps you get alot more comfortable on the track alot faster, rather than coming back after 9 months and having to come to grips with things again.

One other question for you Will....what other tracks are you doing? I found that just doing one track you definately get stuck at that wall. Two buddies of mine were averaging exactly the same and neither of them were improving, think they were both stuck averaging 49-51's. I finally got one of them to do Streets of Willow with me and our next time out at Fontucky he was immediately in the 47's. I think doing other tracks enables you to see different lines through the same corners you've been doing over and over.

Have you ever had yourself recorded? Get a buddy with a camera and same lap times as you to follow you and record you for a session so you can watch exactly how you are riding. That helped me out at Spring Mountain a few years ago.

On a side note, if you are willing to travel a bit, me and some buddies will be out at Spring Mountain in Pahrump, NV with socaltrackdays.com on April 26th. Its a fun roadcourse with 0 sessions. You get more laps and seat time in before lunch than you do a whole day at Fontana. You can also do one on ones with Dale Keifer there. Think I'll do that myself.

One other question for you Will....what other tracks are you doing? I found that just doing one track you definately get stuck at that wall. Two buddies of mine were averaging exactly the same and neither of them were improving, think they were both stuck averaging 49-51's. I finally got one of them to do Streets of Willow with me and our next time out at Fontucky he was immediately in the 47's. I think doing other tracks enables you to see different lines through the same corners you've been doing over and over.

Have you ever had yourself recorded? Get a buddy with a camera and same lap times as you to follow you and record you for a session so you can watch exactly how you are riding. That helped me out at Spring Mountain a few years ago.

On a side note, if you are willing to travel a bit, me and some buddies will be out at Spring Mountain in Pahrump, NV with socaltrackdays.com on April 26th. Its a fun roadcourse with 0 sessions. You get more laps and seat time in before lunch than you do a whole day at Fontana. You can also do one on ones with Dale Keifer there. Think I'll do that myself.

I've only done big willow once (first trackday) and button willow once, the rest of the trackdays were all at Fontana. I agree with you though I think if I do different tracks it will help me improve on certain areas.

For example Fontucky are mostly all left handers, and I SUCK at right handers. So if I went to a track like big willow or streets I can work on my right handers.

I'm going to big willow for the new racer school and finally starting racing so hopefully that will help me push through that barrier. I heard about Pahrump but May's track schedule is already going to slaughter my bank account so I don't think I can go with you guys.

Another thing I think I need to work on is being more aggressive. I feel like when I'm riding at the track its like a stroll in the park. I can't say that I'm really pushing as hard as I should. I think a large part of that has to do with the organizers beating it into our head that "it is noottt a raceeee", "it is nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooottttt a race".

So I don't ride as aggressive as I should. Not saying I should be out there running everybody off the road and be on the edge of highsiding or lowsiding, but I realized I lost that hunger to ride at or a bit past my limit just that little bit. So essentially I think what I'm doing is I'm constantly riding within my limits, and that in itself is limiting me from improving.

That's why I decided to race.... I need to push myself to and past my limits otherwise I'm just going to stay the way I am.... which is too freakin slow.

Racing will get you faster for sure! If for nothing else you won't be running up on gaggles of slower riders spread out all over the track. For the most part you pass a slower rider once and they are done. Longer races are different but you get the point. You will also begin to push yourself. I personally can run faster when I'm stalking someone than I can if I'm all by myself.

Z

If aggression is an issue then racing is the best thing for you. I remember my first races being tentative about my passes but after getting stuffed a few times by slower riders because i was being too nice. i soon realised that when you are in the pack if you give an inch someone will take it.

racing makes you greedy. You start finding yourself taking all the inches you can and then some.

If aggression is an issue then racing is the best thing for you. I remember my first races being tentative about my passes but after getting stuffed a few times by slower riders because i was being too nice. i soon realised that when you are in the pack if you give an inch someone will take it.

racing makes you greedy. You start finding yourself taking all the inches you can and then some.

you mean kinda like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLbgMu9JRWw) :lmao

you mean kinda like this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLbgMu9JRWw) :lmao

Damn Pedrobot has some skills :punk

Damn Pedrobot has some skills :punk

werd.... not a fan but mos def got respect for his skills