A couple weeks ago I put an order in with ammunition to go for 1000 rds 9mm ammo from Brown Bear. For those that don't know, it's like Wolf ammo, in it being metal cased. I'm just using it for plinking and at $175 for 1000 rds and 195 total to have it shipped, I couldn't pass it up. Well, i got a confirmation email after I ordered it that it was on backorder, so I'm thinkin damn I'm going to be waiting forever, but I wasn't. I received a another email after a couple days that it was back in stock and shipped out with tracking number. Received it within 4 days and they left it on my doorstep, which I thought was weird for ammo and the state I live in, :scratch. But I was psyched to have a ton of ammo to go burn.
Went to the range today and went through 200 rds in 30 mins. Even less time most likely because I had my gf shooting the .22 so it was a on/off deal. No jams or misfires, in-fact it almost felt better shooting that than the usual cheapest box i buy at the range. Only downside is it was dirty. But that was expected, and who cares when you have an XDM, those things are easy as hell to clean. Was shooting great groups at around 25ft I think. So for anyone thinking of buying some brown bear, go ahead! :cheers

Thx for the heads up on the ammo, I buy 9 in bulk also for teh tec, glock etc.. You cant hardly get any better than that. I've been looking for an alternative to wolf for ahwile and may have just found it:cheers

good to hear. they say on their website that they prefer it over wolf. and I figured it would be a little weak, but it offered a nice kick. i'm def going to pick more up before prices rise.

on a side-note, to high jack my own thread. Anyone know of a place to get parts to tac out a 1911 colt .45? sights, trigger, hammer, beaver tail. Looking to do it myself if it's at all possible. reason is, my dads piece shoots like shit and i think it'd be a great gift.

Yeah go to your local gun store... The reason im sayin is that most of that stuff needs to matched so ask the pro's there... for the money I went with kimber stuff when I upgraded my milspec a1. try Les also they have way nice stuff but there are middle of the road brands--just find your local guy he'll steer you onto what he works with best and I'll bet you he's done more than a few 1911's:cheers

I haven't tried it in 9x19 but my 9x18 guns eat it up. Being Eastern Bloc guns, that's likely all their original owners would have used in them anyway.

A couple weeks ago I put an order in with ammunition to go for 1000 rds 9mm ammo from Brown Bear. For those that don't know, it's like Wolf ammo, in it being metal cased. I'm just using it for plinking and at $175 for 1000 rds and 195 total to have it shipped, I couldn't pass it up. Well, i got a confirmation email after I ordered it that it was on backorder, so I'm thinkin damn I'm going to be waiting forever, but I wasn't. I received a another email after a couple days that it was back in stock and shipped out with tracking number. Received it within 4 days and they left it on my doorstep, which I thought was weird for ammo and the state I live in, :scratch. But I was psyched to have a ton of ammo to go burn.
Went to the range today and went through 200 rds in 30 mins. Even less time most likely because I had my gf shooting the .22 so it was a on/off deal. No jams or misfires, in-fact it almost felt better shooting that than the usual cheapest box i buy at the range. Only downside is it was dirty. But that was expected, and who cares when you have an XDM, those things are easy as hell to clean. Was shooting great groups at around 25ft I think. So for anyone thinking of buying some brown bear, go ahead! :cheers

I will only run wolf, brown bear, silver bear, ect... through my sks. Never through my XDMs, XDs, or any other expensive guns.

I will only run wolf, brown bear, silver bear, ect... through my sks. Never through my XDMs, XDs, or any other expensive guns.

Well, if that's the case I'll only run 93 octane in my k6 600.
Or not, point is, my XDM is not a carry piece. Strictly for target practice and this ammo serves its purpose for the situation. What are the cons? Makes the weapon dirtier? Ok, so I spend a couple extra minutes cleaning it. Not damaging the weapon in any way.

Joker, I will try my local gunsmith then, thanks for the tip.

Well, if that's the case I'll only run 93 octane in my k6 600.
Or not, point is, my XDM is not a carry piece. Strictly for target practice and this ammo serves its purpose for the situation. What are the cons? Makes the weapon dirtier? Ok, so I spend a couple extra minutes cleaning it. Not damaging the weapon in any way.

Joker, I will try my local gunsmith then, thanks for the tip.

Run 93, I don't care. I just stated I won't run dirty shitty ammo through my expensive guns. ESPECIALLY if they are laquer coated, as they were. You can do what you want. Some gun manufacturers will go as far as VOID your warranty for using the ammo. (DPMS is one).

I buy brown bear for my 7.62x54. No problems yet.

Run 93, I don't care. I just stated I won't run dirty shitty ammo through my expensive guns. ESPECIALLY if they are laquer coated, as they were. You can do what you want. Some gun manufacturers will go as far as VOID your warranty for using the ammo. (DPMS is one).

I thought they corrected the laquer coated issue. and wtf is it going to do to the gun anyway??

Primers are highly corrosive on cheap shit--it can eat at the weapon over time but regular maintenance and your fine...

not to rehijack your thread, you did first:lol, you ask the local guys what they like to smith with a 1911? the largest improvement initally is through a full length guide rod/barrel bushing kit, thread unhijacked:chucks

They'll have a brand they work with, trust me:cheers Be careful because upgrading your 1911 is highly addictive:offtopic

I have yet to talk to my local guys but i was sourcing some parts and just wanted to do what work i could myself so i can cut down on costs and learn more about the weapon in general. But i have not taken into account the cost of the gunsmithing tools that might be needed to make parts fit, so i will compare after i chat with the shop.

I thought they corrected the laquer coated issue. and wtf is it going to do to the gun anyway??

It will gum up under fast fire from the heat and cause your gun to malfunction. And they did change it on some of the ammo. But like I said, some gum makers void the warranty if you use it. I just refuse to run it through anything but my sks.

I cant realistically see it causing any damage in what most of us will put through in a range session... less than 500 for sure usually, and usually even less than 250rds.

If you clean your gun properly and thoroughly I cant see an issue with it at all.


As to them voiding your warranty. The burden of proof is on them to PROVE that the ammo caused whatever malfunction caused the failure. It is illegal for them to blanket void your warranty due to a certain ammo.

Heres a link right from DPMS Moderator, Jon F.

http://dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=2918&postRepeater1-p=1#2920

I have yet to talk to my local guys but i was sourcing some parts and just wanted to do what work i could myself so i can cut down on costs and learn more about the weapon in general. But i have not taken into account the cost of the gunsmithing tools that might be needed to make parts fit, so i will compare after i chat with the shop.


It's the parts and the smithing that make the difference on the 1911's--fyi you won't drive tacks without some serious dough

I always clean my weapon right when I return home from the range, so there's no chance for the corrosion to set in even if the ammo was to cause that.

It's the parts and the smithing that make the difference on the 1911's--fyi you won't drive tacks without some serious dough

Yeah, looks like I'm going to have to find a gunsmith in the area that I can entrust with this job. I just hate going to gun shops around here because the staff is always so condescending towards the customers.

Heres a link right from DPMS Moderator, Jon F.

http://dpmsinc.com/forum/posts.aspx?postID=2918&postRepeater1-p=1#2920

And that means absolutely JACK SHIT legally :dunno.

They have a burdon of proof that the ammo caused the failure that is being warrantied legally under the Magnusson Moss Warranty act :thumbup.

At that, they have to prove you used it.

And also at that, they are not singling out wolf or brown bear. They are singling out steel cased ammo. Big difference there.

And that means absolutely JACK SHIT legally :dunno.

They have a burdon of proof that the ammo caused the failure that is being warrantied legally under the Magnusson Moss Warranty act :thumbup.

At that, they have to prove you used it.

And also at that, they are not singling out wolf or brown bear. They are singling out steel cased ammo. Big difference there.

No. Read the wording. It clearly states that Wolf will void the warranty, AS WILL any and all steel cased ammo. So its stating that wolf, no matter the casing, will void the warranty, a will any steel cased ammo. They are singling out BOTH ammos, wolf and any steel cased. By wolf they mean ANY russian ammo I'm guessing. (silver bear, wolf, brown bear, golden bear, ect). I do agree they have the burden of proof, but I think its shit ammo, and won't use it. I have no problems with others using it in their guns.

Wolf is a brand name, and it is in reference to the OP of the thread.

And to my knowledge wolf only makes steel cased ammo. :dunno

I dont see where "wolf" translates to "any russian ammo" :scratch.


You are entitled to your opinion, as is is the moderator of that forum. But Id like to see him void a warranty that was not caused by the ammo and get away with it......... with anyone who is not a complete pussy and just "takes it on the chin"

Know your rights I say.

And I say as long as the stuff is cleaned after every 200 rds (as is actually recommended with most any firearm) and after every outing, there is NOTHING it can do to the gun to hurt it.

If it does hurt a gun, I dont want that gun...... this things are made to contain explosions. If that ammo is enough to hurt it, the gun is a piece of shit, not the ammo.

Not to mention NOTHING is worth a fuck in your opinion but double tap anyway :dunno :wacko :lol

Not to mention NOTHING is worth a fuck in your opinion but double tap anyway :dunno :wacko :lol

Or Winchester, Blazin Brass, Buffalo Bore, Blazer, Remington, Federal, and anything else for target EXCEPT that shitty wolf, silver bear, or any other russian ammo. I only use DT for hunting and carry purposes. So that statement was completely false, which isnt anything new.:biggrin

It wa sa joke fucknuts... lighten up. You just harp in it SOooooooooooooooooooo much (along with Amsoil) that it is enough to laugh when I see it now

I had a smile at the end of my sentence:dunno Chill out big guy.:spit I only harp about quality products. So be prepared to keep laughing.

Sure, they are. But they are not THAT much better than others. :dunno

Like the DT ammo, is a slightly different load with a speer projectile. That MIGHT be better for your gun, but it might not be for others. So it is essentially "equal" with speer at best. And that is not even the case for all Calibers. Certain calibers there are better working projectiles :dunno

Sure, they are. But they are not THAT much better than others. :dunno

Like the DT ammo, is a slightly different load with a speer projectile. That MIGHT be better for your gun, but it might not be for others. So it is essentially "equal" with speer at best. And that is not even the case for all Calibers. Certain calibers there are better working projectiles :dunno

Yeah but remember, I'm a fan boy. And your right, it probably isnt a good load for some guns, as they wouldnt be able to handle the load. But as far as ballistics, I havnt found a better round. And as far as accuracy, my 10mm LOVES the DT ammo. I have nothing against other ammos, I just like to suggest another ammo I like. Just another opinion. Nobody has to use it just because I say its the best. Thats just an Opinion.

It is "fan b0i" :phhht


Even the ballistics. Barrel length and action of the gun come in to play as well. Your glock might like the DT, but another "x caliber" may not. Speaking in general about the brand, not about 10mm here. Just double taps "hot loads" in general.

And yes, some guns might not take the hot loads either. And I bet if you put enough rounds through your 10mm... it wont like them either. My buddy (the guy I talked about in the other thread, who is a "glock guy", firarms instructor, and has put 200k rounds through one of his G19s) was saying the 10mm round by itself was known to destroy guns in its "hay day". Glocks included, and thus it quickly was taken out of service.

But remember, this is the type of guy to put a 500+ rounds through a gun....... per DAY!. I am not sure how much "abuse" it takes for a hot 10mm load to start to do damage, but from his experience with them, it eventually will :dunno, and is why he said most of todays "commercial" rounds are not as hot as they were when the gun was the new big thing.

All second hand info, so take it for what it is worth :dunno

Also, I am infering here, so correct me if I am wrong. It seems your trust in the balistics are based on its speed and ftlbs of impact on a test target.

That is not the end all be all of ballistics. Some rounds (like a 9mm) will take a specific weight, for a given speed, to expand to the desired level on a human target. Faster is not always better, and heavier is not always better. The two have to match, so that the bullet expands properly in a human.

I am sure Speer did tons of research on what speed and weight does best in what caliber with what load:dunno. What makes Double tap think they are smarter than the maker of the bullet? :dunno

It is "fan b0i" :phhht


Even the ballistics. Barrel length and action of the gun come in to play as well. Your glock might like the DT, but another "x caliber" may not. Speaking in general about the brand, not about 10mm here. Just double taps "hot loads" in general.

And yes, some guns might not take the hot loads either. And I bet if you put enough rounds through your 10mm... it wont like them either. My buddy (the guy I talked about in the other thread, who is a "glock guy", firarms instructor, and has put 200k rounds through one of his G19s) was saying the 10mm round by itself was known to destroy guns in its "hay day". Glocks included, and thus it quickly was taken out of service.

But remember, this is the type of guy to put a 500+ rounds through a gun....... per DAY!. I am not sure how much "abuse" it takes for a hot 10mm load to start to do damage, but from his experience with them, it eventually will :dunno, and is why he said most of todays "commercial" rounds are not as hot as they were when the gun was the new big thing.

All second hand info, so take it for what it is worth :dunno

Agreed. Thats why I ONLY have DT ammo in my gun when Hunting or for Personal defense. :cheers

Also, I am infering here, so correct me if I am wrong. It seems your trust in the balistics are based on its speed and ftlbs of impact on a test target.

That is not the end all be all of ballistics. Some rounds (like a 9mm) will take a specific weight, for a given speed, to expand to the desired level on a human target. Faster is not always better, and heavier is not always better. The two have to match, so that the bullet expands properly in a human.

I am sure Speer did tons of research on what speed and weight does best in what caliber with what load:dunno. What makes Double tap think they are smarter than the maker of the bullet? :dunno

When I have a 45 cal bullet (My XD which is my primary carry gun), that size slug (185grain) at that speed with that energy should knock anyone down, IMO. But, to enlighten you, there are alot of gelatin and water jug tests from DT ammo on youtube. (how worthy are those, IDK). I also have 1st hand experience with my 8pt buck this year with my 10m with 165 grain DT rounds. My first shot at a trot was slightly behind, hitting the rear hip, and destroying its ability to walk on its rear legs at all. It actually, at about 50 yards, broke the entire pelvis bone and right hip to peices. My second shot was in the back of the neck, which ripped the throat out through the front from proper expansion. I have plenty of faith in the round.

We can ALL See you have plenty of faith.

But you have suggested them in other calibers.

My 9mm for example. 9mm is a pretty fast bullet, that if not loaded properly for the weight and the way the specific brand projectile is designed to expand, it MIGHT zip right through without expansion. It might fragment instead of expanding. It might peel the jacket off rather than expanding etc. That is what I mean.

Blindly making statements that DT has the best ballistics (based on what appears to me solely the speed and ftlbs) is kind of a fools bet really. Just my opinion.

I have done TONS of research on my two carry rounds (9mm and .38spl) and coincidentally speer is widely shown to expand the best (not in just any grain though, specific grains work best) in tons of scientific tests I can find, from box-o-truth to highly specialized scientific tests, to more real world (animal carcass and such)

But just as specific grain bullets work best, the same can be said for the load I am sure. I feel certain speer loads certain grains certain ways... so it DT is taking the same bullet, and loading it different, they will get different results.

Also that is not to say speer is the best for all calibers either from what I have seen. But across the board, they are usually right up there with the best. Basically it is a safe bet that if you get speer... it will work as designed. But some work better than others :dunno.


My whole point is you seem to just say "DOUBLE TAP FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!!!" blindly for any caliber and round. And I just cant see where that is the case, especially when they seem to only want to offer the fastest thing they can in any round. And that is not the only thing that matters when it comes to stopping power of a caliber :dunno.

Well hopefully I never have to try it out on a human, but its what I will use. It worked excellent on a 220lb deer. Like I said, just as the ammo you use, its going to put them on their back with proper placement. I am just bias toward DT. Its my choice of ammo, and what I will use, no matter what.




DT FTMFW!!!!!!:phhht

Just conversing here man...... :dunno. In your chosen caliber, I dont blame you given the results you have seen.

I just dont understand the blanket trust. In ANY product really. But especially something as important as personal defense ammo....... which is a HIGHLY specific "science" depending on projectile construction, projectile weight, load, barell length, caliber, and specific firearm.

Since I have not actually shot a person........ I trust Speer Gold dot based on what I know from research in a .38 sp at 135gr +p. I also trust it in 9mm at 124gr as a +p ammo, or 147gr as a standard load..... or Golden Saber remington at 124gr +p.

See where I am going... that is pretty damn specific.........


I guess I just cant fathom being that "brand biased" on anything :dunno

geez, will you ladies cool down here? :D I shoot steel cased ammo through the ak and a few older russian guns in the family, they are cheap for one and surplus crap is all you can cheaply find for the russian rifle my stepfather has (cant remember the caliber, it is something old and non-standard)

I bought about 500 rounds of wolf ammo for my glock 19 when it was fairly new and noticed an immediate "polishing" of the loading ramp entering the chamber and quite a bit of steel shavings in the insides of the gun when cleaning. Now, a brand new barrel for a glock 19 is probably $40 and it would take me years and years of 500 round weekends to wear out the barrel. It was just the idea of it.

I found HSM ammo locally, it is brass or nickel-plated brass casings mass reloaded from law enforcement and range ammo. It shoots as good as any other cheap ammo and I actually like it. Before metal skyrocketed in price it was about $.75 to $1.00 more per 50 box than wolf and had clean primers and brass cases.
http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f121/kdj67f/IMAGE_178.jpg

geez, will you ladies cool down here? :D I shoot steel cased ammo through the ak and a few older russian guns in the family, they are cheap for one and surplus crap is all you can cheaply find for the russian rifle my stepfather has (cant remember the caliber, it is something old and non-standard)

I bought about 500 rounds of wolf ammo for my glock 19 when it was fairly new and noticed an immediate "polishing" of the loading ramp entering the chamber and quite a bit of steel shavings in the insides of the gun when cleaning. Now, a brand new barrel for a glock 19 is probably $40 and it would take me years and years of 500 round weekends to wear out the barrel. It was just the idea of it.

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f121/kdj67f/IMAGE_178.jpg


One of my reasons for using it is because while I was waiting for the brown bear ammo to come in, I went to the range and used PMC or some shit and found metal shavings and shrapnel (pretty large pieces) in the chamber and barrel. That pissed me off since it was name brand stuff. The russian stuff def makes the weapon dirtier but there were no shavings or shrapnel in the chamber and I clean it really well. Like he said, barrels are fairly cheap and it would take years upon years to wear it out, so what would be the big deal anyway. Plus as previously stated, this IS NOT a carry piece, its used for target shooting so if it wears it out in a couple years whoopie. Like Joe said, if it can't withstand it, then I don't want it.

This was a review for people that want to buy the russian stuff but weren't sure. Opinions are welcome sure, but thats because its your right to have one, but why in a thread about a specific ammo go on about some higher priced brand shit. Even at that, through a different weapon all together, a rifle. the opinion might be relevant if you said my XDM 9mm i shot russian ammo through, the barrel exploded and the slide flew off while the mag fell on the floor. just try to keep the brand bias where it belongs, the amsoil thread..

Your welcome.

One of my reasons for using it is because while I was waiting for the brown bear ammo to come in, I went to the range and used PMC or some shit and found metal shavings and shrapnel (pretty large pieces) in the chamber and barrel. That pissed me off since it was name brand stuff. The russian stuff def makes the weapon dirtier but there were no shavings or shrapnel in the chamber and I clean it really well. Like he said, barrels are fairly cheap and it would take years upon years to wear it out, so what would be the big deal anyway. Plus as previously stated, this IS NOT a carry piece, its used for target shooting so if it wears it out in a couple years whoopie. Like Joe said, if it can't withstand it, then I don't want it.

This was a review for people that want to buy the russian stuff but weren't sure. Opinions are welcome sure, but thats because its your right to have one, but why in a thread about a specific ammo go on about some higher priced brand shit. Even at that, through a different weapon all together, a rifle. the opinion might be relevant if you said my XDM 9mm i shot russian ammo through, the barrel exploded and the slide flew off while the mag fell on the floor. just try to keep the brand bias where it belongs, the amsoil thread..

The brand bias will be where we want it to be.:shifty

Deal with it:biggrin

Primers are highly corrosive on cheap shit--it can eat at the weapon over time but regular maintenance and your fine...

All current modern ammo is and has been loaded only with non-corrosive primers, that includes wolf, golden tiger, silver and brown bear, barnaul etc. The use of mercury fulminate in the primers (which creates the corrosive salts that eat shit up) has been discontinued for quite some time. However...there is still some old stuff still available from russia and yugoslavia and other european countries that do have corrosive primers, but most of that stuff is from the '60s and older, so it is hard to come by anymore. As long as you stay with any modern ammo you are good to go. I still have about 10,000 rounds of steel core 7.62 x 39 ammo that is corrosive but it is no problem to use as long as you clean your weapon when done. The thing most people do that gets them in trouble is forgetting to take apart the entire gas piston assembly, that is where the corrosion usually starts. They will clean the barrel good, but forget about the rest! However if you have any old steel core corrosive stuff, keep it, it is worth 3 times what the modern ammo is worth, and the shelf life of corrosive ammo is actually better than non-corrosive. 50 years is no problem as long as it is kept cool and dry! :punk

just a small update, i've run about 1000 rounds through the gun with the brown bear and i've had NO jams, but I did have one misfire. Didn't bother me that much, could've been a shitty round or primer that can happen with any manufactuer. I went to buy more, but they don't even list it anymore, I saw another thread on here about where did all the ammo go? I'd like to know, I need more bulk 9 ammo, and cheap. Anyone think the suppliers will get more stock in and prices will lower? i'm kicking myself for not buying 2k rounds now.

I just bought 500 rds of silver bear 7.62X39 from my local dealer, they were out of 9mm, but I have just over 1000 rds of that also.

I bought a few hundred rounds of Brown Bear .223 and put them through my M4, I had no problems, although it did leave my rifle filthy