okay first off,
i know its better to slow down before corning... of course =P but say you have to slow down while cornering i mean it does happen

1. i know its best 2 use rear brake, makes sense

but what about using your front brake? any benefits 2 it?

2. or do u just use both brakes?

p.s. i know front brake is where most your breaking comes from not what i meant lol =P

okay you have it backwards....front is more important than rear. on average, 75% of braking (in cars and bikes) is done at the front wheel(s). you can use brakes mid corner but you damn well better be familiar with your brakes and their lockup threshold because that's not the time where you want to lose traction. braking in a corner is something that most pro racers do constantly, it's called trailbraking. you slowly trail off the front brake as you get closer to the apex where you let off the brake completely, get back on the throttle lightly to suppress lean angle and then as you exit, accelerate. not something you want to try as a beginner though. i understand trail braking by concept, but through experience i've only got it right a few times. feels great when you get it right though, it makes everything nice and smooth

okay you have it backwards....front is more important than rear. on average, 75% of braking (in cars and bikes) is done at the front wheel(s). you can use brakes mid corner but you damn well better be familiar with your brakes and their lockup threshold because that's not the time where you want to lose traction. braking in a corner is something that most pro racers do constantly, it's called trailbraking. you slowly trail off the front brake as you get closer to the apex where you let off the brake completely, get back on the throttle lightly to suppress lean angle and then as you exit, accelerate. not something you want to try as a beginner though. i understand trail braking by concept, but through experience i've only got it right a few times. feels great when you get it right though, it makes everything nice and smooth

kk i get ya, but no i know rear brake is more important since it has the most stopping power but was just wondering about corner braking since seems like braking on the rear would make u loose control much easier

but ill def try not to brake while turning till i get good at it by practicing =P not on the road at least

1.You got it wrong front brake is where your best stopping power is.

2.When using the front brake in a corner your bike will want to stand up and go straight, That is a bad thing, so you have to learn to counter that, which takes lots of practice.

3.Using your rear brake is ok dont hammer cause locking the rear in a corner would be bad.

4. Use engine braking in the corner just stay in a low gear.

if you really come in to fast in a corner..just stand the bike up and apply the breaks. (MSF course biatchessss)

kk i get ya, but no i know rear brake is more important since it has the most stopping power but was just wondering about corner braking since seems like braking on the rear would make u loose control much easier


Read what people are saying, front brake is your most important, you could get along fine without the rear, not the front.

Ok so what you guys are saying is... you don't need the front brake right:burnout

You seem to have a lot of questions about riding techniques, best would be MSF Course. If that somehow isn't feasible or even for supplemental reading pick up something likethis book. (http://www.amazon.com/Sport-Riding-Techniques-Develop-Confidence/dp/1893618072) Read it and then go practice.

have you ever even ridden a bike? How could you even think the rear has more stopping poiwer if you've spent even 5 min on a bike?

As was said before take the msf course

1.You got it wrong front brake is where your best stopping power is.

2.When using the front brake in a corner your bike will want to stand up and go straight, That is a bad thing, so you have to learn to counter that, which takes lots of practice.

3.Using your rear brake is ok dont hammer cause locking the rear in a corner would be bad.

4. Use engine braking in the corner just stay in a low gear.

+1 he said the most logical way...

kk i get ya, but no i know rear brake is more important since it has the most stopping power but was just wondering about corner braking since seems like braking on the rear would make u loose control much easier

but ill def try not to brake while turning till i get good at it by practicing =P not on the road at least

You're clueless and you don't need to brake in the corner for next two seasons....... in order to survive!

I rarely use my rear brake unless I come up on some lose rock or something like it, otherwise I use my front

okay first off,
i know its better to slow down before corning... of course =P but say you have to slow down while cornering i mean it does happen

1. i know its best 2 use rear brake, makes sense

but what about using your front brake? any benefits 2 it?

2. or do u just use both brakes?

p.s. i know rear brake is where most your breaking comes from not what i meant lol =P
WRONG!!!
kk i get ya, but no i know rear brake is more important since it has the most stopping power but was just wondering about corner braking since seems like braking on the rear would make u loose control much easier

but ill def try not to brake while turning till i get good at it by practicing =P not on the road at least
WRONG!!!!!
1
2.When using the front brake in a corner your bike will want to stand up and go straight, That is a bad thing, so you have to learn to counter that, which takes lots of practice.


4. Use engine braking in the corner just stay in a low gear.
WRong

if you really come in to fast in a corner..just stand the bike up and apply the breaks. (MSF course biatchessss)

Wrong


First....... as has been said. FRONT brake is most effective, not the rear.


second, if your bike stands up if you DO use the front brake mid corner, you have suspension issues that need settling.

Third if you are too hot, engine braking is the last thing you want. It puts the weight on the front wheel, and can cause it to wash.

Fourth, NEVER give up and stand up and apply the brakes. No matter what happesn, JUST TURN. You stand a much better chance staying on the tarmac, than you do in the dirt.

Turn your head into the corner, open the throttle a bit to get the bike back to neutral weight, and just FUCKING TURN...... you will probably make it.

If you do HAVE to slow down, using the front gingerly, as well as the rear VERY gingerly, will work. But it is a very advanced skill at any decent lean angle.

It seems totally counter intuitive, but believe it or not you need to OPEN the throttle (yes, give it MORE gas) if you are going too fast for a corner that you think you are going to tuck the front.

If you dont think you are about to tuck it, then just fucking turn... the bike can make it.

if you really come in to fast in a corner..just stand the bike up and apply the breaks. (MSF course biatchessss)

worst advice you can possibly give anyone, especially if someone is a public street rider. never ever, stand a bike up going into a corner at too high of speed. 1. if a vehicle is oncoming-most likely you will die. 2. if you re lucky on avoiding oncoming vehicle you still will likely hit a rail, tree, telephone pole, etc. and still most likely die. i use to stand it up as well, this only helps avoiding traction loss, which in most cases your better off having lost traction, and sliding will at least slow down momentem as well. if unespectedly you enter a corner to fast. lay the bike down as fars she'll go and counter steer. if you respond quick enough chance of you getting through in one piece is a lot higher. never ride fast on an unfamiliar road and even on a familiar road only push your luck on the return trip back. And if your a fast street rider, it's slow into a corner and fast out of one, not fast into a corner. best advice anyone can receive is take it slow until you understand cornering limits. oh, it may take some serious road rash and tens of thousands of dollars in new bikes to learn these lessons.:hammer

thank goodness for Moto Joe. i know this was originally posted in Squid Farm, but needed some facts here now that it's been moved...

also don't forget that just the steering input of turning the bike will slow it down. so if you're coming into a corner, thinking you're a bit fast, just remember that as soon as you initiate the turn you will slow down a bit.

rofl sorry everyone i ment to put i know the front brake is stronger than the rear not the other way around fixed that =P sorry bout that and yes im taking the msf course no ive never ridden a bike expect for like a block

im not a completle squid either i know a lot about racing just not as much when it comes to motorcycles ive been driving and track racing my mustang GT since 2005

racing on the track with a sportbike is unlike anyother racing youve done in a car, so dont go into it thinkin your king dick cus youll end up on your ass with a busted bike

racing on the track with a sportbike is unlike anyother racing youve done in a car, so dont go into it thinkin your king dick cus youll end up on your ass with a busted bike

+1 :eek........

Not even the LINES are similar.... really nothing is the same other than the fact that they both go around in a "circle" and have a start finish line... throttle and brakes, and the goal is to make the "circle" in the shortest time.......

racing on the track with a sportbike is unlike anyother racing youve done in a car, so dont go into it thinkin your king dick cus youll end up on your ass with a busted bike

i know that very well im not some cocky idiot thats why im takeing msf course needed courses and extra training courses, thats also why im starting in a ninja 250 rather than 1000 like an idiot or anything i cant handle i know its a huge diffrence all i ment by it, is im not an idiot i know what im getting into

second, if your bike stands up if you DO use the front brake mid corner, you have suspension issues that need settling.


I dont know if I agree with this 100%. Without turning this into a suspension thread there are a couple of thigs to consider. But generally, I agree.

If your on the road, I would rather stability then something that turns in really quick or trail brakes really well. Its all a balance.

On the track, it would depend on the track, how you ride, how quick you are etc etc

But getting back on topic I think you can also use too much brake and it can also want to stand up. If your not locked on or steering properly it can also want to stand up as your not holding enough pressure on the inside bar.

Last weekend, i was working on bike set up and why I was tipping in too early. A sstk racer passed me on the inside, dragged his brake a little too long and I dragged my front brake to avoid hitting him. Realistically, I should have picked it up off my knee and drove around the outside of him and drag raced him to T2.

Point is, sometimes you do the wrong thing even when your riding at 80%

I think a lot of that though, is sub concious. Theoretically if you were to be able to lean a bike over (properly set up) and let go of the bars, it will want to hold its arc if you dont change anything. If you were to then brake, it should not change its arc much, if at all.

BUT we sub conciously stand the bike up some if we brake mid corner :dunno.

At least to my understanding of it all. I know my bike does not stand up if I brake mid corner, but for all I know I also could be steering it to keep its line simultaneously as well :dunno


AS to the post I was refering to, I took it to mean it STOOD UP, not just tried to stand some. And some bikes will do this, but it is usually a suspension issue (stock Buells were BAD about it a few years ago, but they changed the geometry to fix it) applying the brake would cause the front to basically tuck... but if you are not at max lean, and traction is still available it essentially counter steers itself out of the turn. Properly set up it should not do that, unless your "prefered" setup compromises in such a way as to cause that by product.

I think a lot of that though, is sub concious. Theoretically if you were to be able to lean a bike over (properly set up) and let go of the bars, it will want to hold its arc if you dont change anything. If you were to then brake, it should not change its arc much, if at all.
In theory, shouldnt the line tighten up- since your now even lower in the stroke, smaller rake/trail and wheel base?!

In theory, shouldnt the line tighten up- since your now even lower in the stroke, smaller rake/trail and wheel base?!


only if you are braking hard enough to compress the suspension more I guess :dunno..... but since we are talking race theory, you would already be loaded up, and on maint throttle, so the bike wold be sitting really low in its stroke and balanced out, so it should not dive at all really if you are just scrubbing speed...... I dont think :dunno.

Rake trail isnt all that matters either. Like I said earlier in the thread, if you go in hot enough to push the front, the suspension will be compressed nearly fully, but the bike will want to go straight still. If you open the throttle and get the bike off the front wheel it will actually turn tighter, even though it is ass backwards seeming to speed up to make a turn you are going too fast for :lol..... it works.

If you slow acceleration when in a corner, the bike will want to fall over, not straighten out. Anyone that has is comfortable riding larger cc bikes on the track and hits up a 600and redlines it mid corner will tell you its hell on Earth for that second you have to push against the concrete or back off then get on the throttle to blip yourself up again.

Very good points made by everyone, was a very interesting read. One thing not mentioned was the fact that most should ride track w the two fingers covering the brake at all times. this allows quick corrections before/during cornering. You will turn faster w the weight on the rear of the bike but if you're coming in hot and your angle is too wide, maintaining throttle and raking the front brake will allow the suspension to weigh off(compress the front a little) but more importantly, the bike will drop and acceleration can be regained by letting off the brake.

Braking hard while in a corner is a combination for disaster... that unloads the rear and puts all the unstable weight on the front. Wash out.

MSF is a well executed guidline for proper street motorcycle operation. It will not teach advanced moves etc since there isn't anywhere legal to ride at those speeds on the public roadways.

That's the best way I can explain it with my experience. For the street, always brake, roll off then on in each corner and accelerate out of the apex. The backroads aren't made for crashing like a track is. Preserve your life.

To the OP- listen to what Joe is telling you. He will not give you bad advise, only correct advise for a safe ride :cheers

if you really come in to fast in a corner..just stand the bike up and apply the breaks. (MSF course biatchessss)

Stupidest advice ever.

When the MSF course (which isn't even geared towards Sportbikes) and a few trips to Bike Night is all you have under your belt, you need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to telling other people what to do.

Refrain from giving any advice until you know how to ride and/or you know what you are talking about.

To the OP- listen to what Joe is telling you. He will not give you bad advise, only correct advise for a safe ride :cheers

Just don't listen to him when he tells you he needs you to go find some spark plugs for his diesel truck. :shifty

If you're a new rider.... you're not ready to touch any brakes while cornering yet. If you catch yourself going into a corner too hot, ease off the throttle, lean a bit more, and look where you want to go.

FYI most people here will tell you to NEVER touch your rear brake. I never use my rear brake in street nor track riding. It sounds absurd to a new rider, it goes against logic, but if you understand more about riding it is actually very logical.

If you're a new rider.... you're not ready to touch any brakes while cornering yet. If you catch yourself going into a corner too hot, ease off the throttle, lean a bit more, and look where you want to go.

FYI most people here will tell you to NEVER touch your rear brake. I never use my rear brake in street nor track riding. It sounds absurd to a new rider, it goes against logic, but if you understand more about riding it is actually very logical.

it makes sense and to tell you the truth for most part ive always thought the rear brake is a bit stupid since the only thing that keeps you moving is mass and gravity which when your stoping is pushed to the front of the car, of course if yo break with the rear as well it helps but if you put 2 much pressure rear wheels lock up and slide since thats the only thing from keeping your bike steadily and smoothly loosing speed, at least thats what i can tell from observations ive made

If you slow acceleration when in a corner, the bike will want to fall over, not straighten out. Anyone that has is comfortable riding larger cc bikes on the track and hits up a 600and redlines it mid corner will tell you its hell on Earth for that second you have to push against the concrete or back off then get on the throttle to blip yourself up again.

Very good points made by everyone, was a very interesting read. One thing not mentioned was the fact that most should ride track w the two fingers covering the brake at all times. this allows quick corrections before/during cornering. You will turn faster w the weight on the rear of the bike but if you're coming in hot and your angle is too wide, maintaining throttle and raking the front brake will allow the suspension to weigh off(compress the front a little) but more importantly, the bike will drop and acceleration can be regained by letting off the brake.

Braking hard while in a corner is a combination for disaster... that unloads the rear and puts all the unstable weight on the front. Wash out.

MSF is a well executed guidline for proper street motorcycle operation. It will not teach advanced moves etc since there isn't anywhere legal to ride at those speeds on the public roadways.

That's the best way I can explain it with my experience. For the street, always brake, roll off then on in each corner and accelerate out of the apex. The backroads aren't made for crashing like a track is. Preserve your life.

Couldnt agree with you more and as stated by a earlier poster, cornering, braking and traction are a pretty fine balance on these machines and it is all about knowing how to balance these techniques. But going back to the original post, if you dont understand the limits through experienced riding, this guy wants to know how to avoid disaster if coming in too hot and it aint ( yeah aint- its a burgh thing !, lol ! ) standing a bike up nor is it breaking into a corner. However circumstance of a particular instance is always the factor. Example, you come in hot into a hair-pin and you dont have the know how or reaction time to get through turn, well just sometimes, even though its your worst and best option, brake, get the bike down and slow down its momentum. Better be wearing all leathers, cause regardless, at best its gonna sting. This is what less experienced riders need to know. Most importantly they need to know how to avoid coming in too hot, unless you have the "know-how" to make up for your mistake. It aint a matter of just a technical fuck up on a track, a technical fuck up on the street is more likely to cost you your life. If your too hot, its your only option. And yes hard breaking into a corner is a combination for disaster, but we cant teach rooks to take it out of the equation or their be scared to use the last ditch effort that may have saved their life. Not acting like i know it all, but ive been in these situations and once in particular, the last ditch effort (braking hard into a corner) saved my life when a girl talking on a cell, blindly pulled out in front of me on a sharp turn, but understand that its your last option and acquire better techniques for understanding circumstances through talking to more experienced riders on how to better avoid these situations.

wow, there is a lot of myth going on in this thread.

Every one that rides bikes will eventually have to brake whilst they are part way through a bend. An oncoming,overtaking vehicle, livestock on the road and any other unavoidable scenarios, are all going to place you in a situation where you need to stop or at least wash off speed to decrease the impact!
Unless you are already dragging a knee, todays tyres will allow you to brake whilst cornering in dry conditions. And like it or not, the only way to become reasonably proficient at doing this safely, is to practice! In my opinion smooth application of both brakes achieves the best result.

i know that very well im not some cocky idiot thats why im takeing msf course needed courses and extra training courses, thats also why im starting in a ninja 250 rather than 1000 like an idiot or anything i cant handle i know its a huge diffrence all i ment by it, is im not an idiot i know what im getting into

atleast your takin the time to work your way up and not jumpin in all at once like the majority of ppl do, in the long run it will make you a better, faster rider. :punk

The way i have learned how to handle turns is not pushing myself too hard going into a turn as a rookie. I would take a turn at a quick speed (not dangerous) and if I'm comfortable with it I would step it up a little next time. It will help keep you safe if you know what your bike can handle and being comfortable on it. Ive heard waaay to many stories of kids driving off the lot and totaling their bike the same day they bought it if not minutes after leaving. I wouldn't worry about how to take turns at high speeds until you get a lot more experienced with your machine.

wat? this thread is still going...?

i forgot to mention this the first time, and i don't think anyone else did either - that if you're going a bit too hot into a corner a little rear brake will help to turn the bike in and scrub off a little speed.

i'd generally advise that for a newer rider since the rear brake is alot less powerful than the front, alot less chance of locking it up.

and another "no rear brake ever" post? someone had best go and look at the "front brake Vs rear brake" thread again...

if you really come in to fast in a corner..just stand the bike up and apply the breaks. (MSF course biatchessss)

Unless theres a barbed wire fence in front of you>

rofl sorry everyone i ment to put i know the front brake is stronger than the rear not the other way around fixed that =P sorry bout that and yes im taking the msf course no ive never ridden a bike expect for like a block

im not a completle squid either i know a lot about racing just not as much when it comes to motorcycles ive been driving and track racing my mustang GT since 2005

My advice would be to ride your 250R around the streets and don't ride over your head. When the Penguin Race School comes to Homestead go to the school. They have everything from bikes to leathers. Your 250 isn't the bike for Homestead.

I would completely forget about using the rear brake unless you run into gravel, sand, or run off the road.

Join the Florida Sportbikers . They have many members down near you. They are a good bunch of people. They do trackdays and ride together almost everyweek to some destination on good riding roads.

I'm curious about this "doorknob" technicque, i know somebody's got a vid of how this blipping technique is performed.

+1 :eek........

Not even the LINES are similar.... really nothing is the same other than the fact that they both go around in a "circle" and have a start finish line... throttle and brakes, and the goal is to make the "circle" in the shortest time.......

having done both, I would say that there are more similarities than you are letting on, but the differences are massive as well.. for one, YOU are the roll cage on the bike. To me, I guess it wasn't that big of a change from karting and MX, because it is like a higher speed mixture of those two things.

I'm curious about this "doorknob" technicque, i know somebody's got a vid of how this blipping technique is performed.

walk up to a door, and grap the door kob with your right hand.. and twist it counter clockwise.... notice how your elbow doesn't move???? You actuate the throttle by twisting your wrist, not by "folding" it, or by moving your elbow.

walk up to a door, and grap the door kob with your right hand.. and twist it counter clockwise.... notice how your elbow doesn't move???? You actuate the throttle by twisting your wrist, not by "folding" it, or by moving your elbow.


That clears it up fairly well, now I gotta go try it out. Thanks.:cheers Any tips on performing braking, blip, and shift. What I've been doing as I approarch a right handed turn, I apply brake and pull clutch in simulatneously, shift down to next lower gear, then I blip the throttle, release clutch/brake, initiate lean and apply throttle, any suggestions/tips would be apprecitated.

i think the biggest suggestion is just - be smooth.

whatever works for you, just be smooth and you'll be fast.
(or, safer at the very least.)

i think the biggest suggestion is just - be smooth.

whatever works for you, just be smooth and you'll be fast.
(or, safer at the very least.)


Yeah, that is what I've heard, I need to practice.

I'll post up a detailed explanation of the way i do it, then maybe jow or someone can critique / add to it. I'm going to get a christmas tree with the fam right now.

I'll post up a detailed explanation of the way i do it, then maybe jow or someone can critique / add to it. I'm going to get a christmas tree with the fam right now.

Cool, thanks.:cheers

ok, so you are in full tuck, accelerating toward your braking point.. when you get to your braking point, you want to make a smoth but quick transition from throttle to front brake, and as you are doing this, you want to simultaneously "push" your upper body back and up a tad, to brace yourself for the braking forces, and to get your weight back, so you can brake as hard as you can without going into a stoppie. As I am doing this, I am also sliding my butt over to the inside of the seat until I am hanging one cheek off the inside. You should be able to do all of that before the 1st downshift. Everything I described happens in one fluid motion lasting probably about 1/2 of a second.


so, at this moment, you will find your self under full braking, with the front end compressed, and your lower body and inside leg already pretty much in turning positions. At this point, I will execute any downshifts that need to happen.

This is done by blipping the throttle, touching the clutch, and downshifting all at the same time basically. To me, it had become one motion, but I'll try and break it down so you can get the idea. as i begin to downshift, I put some pressure on the shift lever, then just touch the clutch and blip the throttle at the same time. This unloads the transmission, allowing the gear change to happen quickly, and the fact that you blipped the throttle, and that you bike has a slipper clutch will help make the shock to your rear tire me minimal if not completely neglidgable. Once I have executed my downshifts, and I reach the turn in point, I will begin to apply some pressure to the inside bar, and inside footpeg, as I smoothly begin to release pressure on the front brake. also, it is during this moment that I try and move my head into the "kiss the mirror" position, which is in an effort to get my spine paralell with the center line of the bike, and to get my weight as low and inside as possible. I have also found that going back to a tiny bit of throttle during this part helps stabilize the bike, and keep you from tucking the front. From that point, you are basically trying to get back on the gas as soon as you can, getting the best drive off of the corner. when you really start getting back on the gas, you will find that putting some pressure on the outside peg, along with getting your butt back on the seat will help you maximize traction as well.

If you are holding the throttle in the correct "door knob" position during the braking and downshifting portion, you will be able to keep your front brake pressure constant and smooth.. This will take some practice, and I am sure that some of the instructors on here can add to / correct my explanation as well.

good luck.

remember, the key is to be SMOOOOOTH.

Sounds similar enough to what I do other than a few things.

I dont like the description of "pushing" up into the braking position. Handle bars are for steering and controls, nothing more. I use my abdomen and back to sit me up. I also although I am shifted over already, do not rotate my leg out yet. I am using both knees locked into the tank to keepme from sliding forward and to avoid putting pressure on the bars.

Braking and downshifting.........

As I turn in and trail off the brakes I am now rotating knee out and head down. Stepping on inside peg and pushing on bar to initiate turn. Outside knee and foot are "locked in" with the tank and the peg to support my full weight as I hang off. Throttle is opened back up just before knee touches as you said to setle the front and get some weight off of it at apex to avoid a tuck.

so, you are not supporting any of your weight on the bars when you are braking?

I guess I am carrying that over from MX, because when you brake, you are standing up.


I'll work on that next time out.

nope. None of my weight on the bars. That is what knee pockets and stomp grips are for.

Putting pressure on the bars on the brakes makes the bike more prone to trying to endo for one. If you get off the bars, and get your weight back some it helps with not endoing as bad, also getting back some allows your knees to squeeze the tank... you cant squeeze as good up on the tank because then it is with your inner thighs. Another thing it does is it allows the front wheel to track as it wants to. There will always be slight oscillations in the front,and if you are putting weight on the bars, those oscillations are transferred to your body, and to the rest of the chassis. Getting off the bars allows the bike to track more true when you are really hard on the brakes.

Bars are for steering, and controls. Not to hold on to, and not to support any weight.

word...

:cheers

that makes sense. I watched this vid one time where jeff emig was saying that you should hold on tight enough with your legs (mx) that you are only using your arms for control, but I guess some pressure on the bars under braking in MX is inevitable. I know that once I started actively holding on with my legs in MX, I was able to ride faster and safer almost immediatly without getting arm pump.

I can't wait to apply this knowledge next time out.

thanks

you know, thinking back, in the mx days, if there wasn't any braking bumps, I would kinda lock me knees on the tank while braking to help reduce pressure on my arms, but when the braking bumps are 2 feet deep, It seems like you have to go into "man handle" mode.

you know, thinking back, in the mx days, if there wasn't any braking bumps, I would kinda lock me knees on the tank while braking to help reduce pressure on my arms, but when the braking bumps are 2 feet deep, It seems like you have to go into "man handle" mode.


That is probably one of the hardest things to do in MX is to ride WITH the bike, not against it. Guide it where you want it, not put it where you think it needs to be. I used to use grip tape to help me grip the tank and side panels, and help stay off the bars.

The theory is the same for sure. But doing it is that much more challenging. MX is not considered the most physically demanding sport in the world for no reason.... and track riding is probalby the most mentally demanding

yeah, I had skate board grip tape on the insides of my boots, and on the frame above the pegs. It is weird how you can let the bike move around so much, and just kinda "guide" it along. I haven't really reached that point on the sportbike yet, mainly cause I've had only 4 track days, and all of my racing exp is kinda at or below 100 mph (karts and mx), so I am still in that mode of being REAALLY aware of how fast I'm going. I still get an audible giggle laying it into turn one, and turn 6 at jenning, and I haven't even felt the front end wiggle in the slightest. I am getting some slight wiggles on exit, and even spun up the rear coming off 11, but I haven't gotten to that point where I am pushing hard enough on entry and mid corner to really be getting "in the zone" so to speak. having had that feeling on an mx bike and in the karts, I am eager to feel it on the 600.

Thanks for the info grtfast and moto joe, any good practice methods or do I just need to more track time to practice?

track time.... there is simply no substitute for experience.

FWIW, Joe is definitely the one to listen to regarding these issues.. I have a basic understanding, but he is vastly more experience as far as sportbike technique goes.

Thanks for the info, do u know of any other basic track riding techniques that I can practice?

Thanks for the info, do u know of any other basic track riding techniques that I can practice?

just being smooth... when you are on the edge of traction, anything other than smooth = ugly results..

Thanks for the info, do u know of any other basic track riding techniques that I can practice?

all of them. Practice the right way, all the time. If you do so it becomes muscle memory, and you dont have to think about doing it right, you just do.

Take a high performance riding school. Read the twist of the wrist books. Read Total Control by Lee Parks. Read articles on Keith Codes website. Study and practice. That is the only way to improve. Just going out there and winging it might get you faster over time, but it can also instill bad habits that arehard to break.

all of them. Practice the right way, all the time. If you do so it becomes muscle memory, and you dont have to think about doing it right, you just do.

Take a high performance riding school. Read the twist of the wrist books. Read Total Control by Lee Parks. Read articles on Keith Codes website. Study and practice. That is the only way to improve. Just going out there and winging it might get you faster over time, but it can also instill bad habits that arehard to break.

+10000

Also, even at low speeds I would practice these techniques. I don't ride nearly as fast on the street as I do on the track, however I still like to practice body positioning and whatnot so that I can gain that muscle memory even when I'm not on the track. I probably look like a retard going 5mph hanging off the bike (okay so I'm exaggerating...but you get the picture) but it helps so that when I do go to the track, I already am in the habit of using certain techniques. Not all techniques can be practiced on the street though, and the track really is the best place.

Thanks for the inputs, I've been doing some reading and watching a few instructional vids on youtube. Can't wait till spring, got a lot more reading and viewing to do.:cheers:thumbup

+10000

Also, even at low speeds I would practice these techniques. I don't ride nearly as fast on the street as I do on the track, however I still like to practice body positioning and whatnot so that I can gain that muscle memory even when I'm not on the track. I probably look like a retard going 5mph hanging off the bike (okay so I'm exaggerating...but you get the picture) but it helps so that when I do go to the track, I already am in the habit of using certain techniques. Not all techniques can be practiced on the street though, and the track really is the best place.

haha, I am guilty of "race" riding at normal speeds, but the other evening, I hit an unexpected sand patch (effin florida) and the front end scooted out a bit, but because I had my arms bent, without any weight on them (thanks motojoe!), I didn't "fall" as the bars gave way, and I was able to recover easily. The techniques for the track give you the greatest control over the bike at all times.

So from my understanding, while under hard braking, I wanna use my legs to squeeze the tank to prevent me from pushing/putting weight on the handle bars?

cool shit :lmao

You are right, had you been stiff arming them, you would have probably tucked the front.

A bike in motion wants to stay up. If you are relaxed enough to let it work, it more often than not WILL stay up. The gyroscopics of it and the self correcting geometry of the front end ensure it.

If a bike falls down while in motion, we made it crash (outside of catastrophic failure). If a bike could talk, more often than not it would tell us to get the fuck off of it, because we are fucking it up :lol

So from my understanding, while under hard braking, I wanna use my legs to squeeze the tank to prevent me from pushing/putting weight on the handle bars?


Knees, yes. Hard to do with your "legs". You will probably need to slide back a little bit.

Imagine trying to crush an empty can between your thighs. Then try it between your knees........ not litterally though :lol. But obviously you have more strength between your knees than you do your thighs.

And you should always be light on the bars. Not just on the brakes. When hanging off the bike, when on the gas. always. As I said, bars are for steering and a place to put controls, NOT for hanging on to.

haha, I am guilty of "race" riding at normal speeds, but the other evening, I hit an unexpected sand patch (effin florida) and the front end scooted out a bit, but because I had my arms bent, without any weight on them (thanks motojoe!), I didn't "fall" as the bars gave way, and I was able to recover easily. The techniques for the track give you the greatest control over the bike at all times.

:lol I yeah I've lost the front a few times and thanks to a loose grip, things have turned out alright. Once I also hit a pothole mid turn, luckily it was just a slow turn. It launched me up into the air and off the road but luckily I kept my grip loose and let the bike do it's thing. Once it was done bucking and sliding I steered it back onto the road. Those kind of moments, you don't really have time to react and muscle memory can definitely help to avoid a crash.

the other thing that comes to mind......... "fast riders have slow hands"

If your panic reactions are too fast, you fuck it up. You have to actually quell your reactions, so that you let the bike do what it needs to. And all your inputs need to be firm, but controlled. Not jerky. Slow and smooth is fast :punk

Knees, yes. Hard to do with your "legs". You will probably need to slide back a little bit.

Imagine trying to crush an empty can between your thighs. Then try it between your knees........ not litterally though :lol. But obviously you have more strength between your knees than you do your thighs.

And you should always be light on the bars. Not just on the brakes. When hanging off the bike, when on the gas. always. As I said, bars are for steering and a place to put controls, NOT for hanging on to.

I'll have to keep that in mind "slide back a bit and squeeze with the knees".:thumbup I had issues under hard braking, a lot of my weight would transfer to the front end and I would slide fwd. I will remember to correct it next time out. How do I prevent myself from putting the death grip on my handles bars? Thanks for the help.

relax :dunno :lol

the grip talked about earlier helps.

I describe it in my class as gripping the bars like a screw driver, NOT a hammer. Pinch them between index and thumb basically. This turns our elbows out, and prevents the death grip some. Also frees up your wrists when hanging off. Makes it easier to get the upper body off, and allows your arms and upper body to float more, rahter than being ridgid to the bars.

Notice how nickys knuckles are not in line with the bars, but angled to them. He is gripping the bars like you turn a screw driver, not a hammer

http://alpinestarsinc.com/files/images/nickyHaydenMOTOGP2007.1280x1024.jpg

Thanks, another concept I need to practice.:scratch Alright got another question, before I forget, so understand being light on the bars, so what about weight on the pegs and lower body postion? At lean, feels as though I'm gonna fall off so I don't have the confidence to lean the bike over more.

Thanks, another concept I need to practice.:scratch Alright got another question, before I forget, so understand being light on the bars, so what about weight on the pegs and lower body postion? At lean, feels as though I'm gonna fall off so I don't have the confidence to lean the bike over more.

With your outside leg (let's say you're making a left hand turn, your outside leg is your right), push your knee hard into the tank as you're hanging off the bike. This motion will not only tighten up your lower body but your core as well. You will be supporting all of your body weight with your stomach and legs, so your arms and hands are free to relax and be used more precisely on the controls.

Thanks, i'll try that next time out as well. My upper body just seemed too stiff and I just didn't feel relaxed. Slowly but surely it will all come together.:cheers

BTW what part of cen cal are you from?

fresno area, yourself?

Tracy, up by Modesto/Stockton. Where do you usually ride?

I usually ride around the hills towards sierra summit, if your familiar with that area, a lot of good roads that are close by.

Not really familiar with that area. I usually stick to the roads near Santa Cruz and Los Gatos, but I've always wanted to go more into the valley and find some good roads.

I've heard there are some nice roads there in Santra cruz and los gatos. I'm probably gonna stick more to the track next year. I'm gonna cut back on the street riding.

:cheers ride safe man and if you ever come up this way let me know, I'll show you some nice roads in the area.

For sure, can't wait till spring!:thumbup Alright back to topic, any other help would be appreciated? Thanks again fellas.

bump for more knowledge any one?:cheers

Yep. You can brake while you corner, just not as much as hard as you can in a straight line. Basically, you only have so much grip. If 50% is dedicated to cornering, then you can use the other 50 for braking or acceleration. This works pretty well when you know exactly how much grip you have available; if you think you're at 100% when you're really at 60%, you're not likely to grab a handful of brake without freaking out.

There's a few different opinions on this sort of thing. Code says in twist of the wrist II that the best way is still to brake in a straight line. In sport riding techniques, trail braking is talked about a lot. Personally, I think it depends on the corner, and personal riding style. I trail brake quite a bit, but I don't floor my knee at turn in. I'm doing a lot of street/canyon riding, and turning in like that doesn't leave much room for sand/cars/oil/etc.

Another way to look at it is this: Say you have a decreasing radius corner. Now, would you rather keep going straight damn near all the way to the apex, or would you rather brake while you turn, and tighten the corner as you slowly release the brakes? Which one's faster? Most likely it's a mix of both. You can recover (in my experience) from a locked front wheel easier when you're upright, and that adds confidence, which leads to harder braking. At the same time, you'll be losing some time doing all of your braking in a straight line. We're still talking about the deceasing radius corner here. What I end up with is getting is a situation where I do probably 70% of my braking upright, let off a little as I turn in, and hold it until it's time to get back on the gas. Usually just before the apex.

Sometimes though, you fuck it up. You misjudge speed and distance and end up coming into a corner a little bit hotter than you wanted. You know you're in one of these situations when your asshole tightens up, and your eye's double in size. In a scenario like this, brake all the way up to the apex. If you do it without target fixating and crapping your leathers, you'll probably be alright.

Phew.

Also, check out some books. I recommend Twist I and II, Sport Riding Techniques, and The Motorcycle Trackday Handbook.

Cool, i'm gonna have to checkout your referred books.

thank god he only has 250cc anymore cc he would kill has self

Cool, i'm gonna have to checkout your referred books.

Oh! One more thing, Techniques of Motorcycle Road Racing by Kenny Roberts is another awesome book. It's hard as hell to find, and super expensive, but it's totally worth it. I paid $60 for a copy at Powells books in Portland, and I think there's one on amazon right now for 72. I highly recommend it. Another good one is Andrew Trevitts book on sportbike suspension. I learned a lot reading that. While it doesn't directly deal with riding technique, and cornering during braking, it does a lot to explain what the bike is doing underneath you, and how to change it to suit your riding.

Thanks for the inputs, i'll have to check those books out at as well.

This has been discussed at our local forum. i'd mentioned that a charted traction circle showed 30% more G load generated while turning then braking. Some one there asked me where the data regarding the 30% more G load forces generated from turning compared to braking came from.

Here it is. Each dot tracks max G force generated. Up from center is acceleration. Left and right is turning(lateral force). Down is braking. Bullet point #6 touches on the 30% thing. After looking at it and thinking about for awhile, it all makes easy sense.

Very enlightening. I concur when one reflects on how hard one 'actually' can corner while at a true race pace.

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_1001_g_force_plot_motorcycle_chains/index.html

http://image.sportrider.com/f/tech/146_1001_g_force_plot_motorcycle_chains/31476900+pheader_460x1000/146_1001_02_z+ask_the_geek+G-Forces_graph.jpg


""G-Force Plot and Motorcycle Chains - Ask the Geek
Your Abnormal Guide To Things Abnormal
January 01, 2010
By Amee Reehal

I ♥ Acceleration
Re. "The Traction Circle" (RSS, Sept. '09). Andrew, this is a great article which struck at the heart of the matter (pun intended), and possibly uncovered a deeper philosophical reason why we love riding so much-all those 3-dimensional G-forces plotted on a graph form a heart-a sign of love.

Ask The Geek G Forces Graph
Click to View Gallery
As to the technical information, I've been staring at the heart, errr.. graph for some time-slicing, dicing, and comprehending all the love, err.. information coming from it. Some of the conclusions are more important than others, but here is what I derived in no particular order.

1. It seems the riding was done in a clockwise direction at the track resulting in more right turns, hence the density of dots on the graph is noticeably higher on the right side.

2. The rider seems to be a bit more confident in right turns: a) the utmost right edge of the graph is slightly more away from the center compared to the utmost left edge of the graph suggesting more extreme lean angle in right hand turns; b) at partial lean angle (roughly half of maximum G-force), the rider applied both acceleration and braking a bit more aggressively on right hand turns than on left hand turns.

3. Now this is amazing. At decent lean angles (corresponding to 2/3 of maximum G-forces) the rider could use almost 100 percent of acceleration forces and about 1/2 of maximum braking forces! Draw two vertical lines on the graph-one 2/3 the distance to the left of the center and another 2/3 the distance to the right of the center, and see where they cross the higher and lower edges of the graph.

4. In the article, you pointed out that the dip in upright acceleration on top of the graph is caused by the limited motorcycle power not exceeding the traction limits. I think the ability to generate higher G-forces at slight lean angles can be attributed to the reduced effective tire radius at slight lean angles, which in turn shortens the gearing and increases the torque. As the lean angles increases, this effect is being gradually cancelled by less available traction for acceleration-hence the top of the graph in each half slightly peaks at first as we go away from the center, and then drops down.

5. Brakes are the most powerful control. Comparing the distances from the center to the top of the graph with the distance to the bottom of the graph reveals that maximum braking G-forces are about 50 percent stronger than maximum acceleration G-forces.

6. But what is more amazing is that maximum cornering G-forces are about 30 percent bigger than maximum braking G-forces. The former ones correspond to the distance from the center of the graph to the left and right edges. The latter one corresponds to the distance from the center of the graph to the bottom edge.

7. Now, this is questionable, but I swear if I look at the graph upside down, I see a sportbike going left to right. The bike is slightly leaned to the left, with the rear tire closest to the viewer. I think a drink or two would help to see it better.

On a serious note, the following things would be helpful.

a) put the units of measurements on the graph, and provide scale lines every 0.2g b) what bike and what tires were used, and who was riding it for that matter? c) provide us with the graph in the wet as well so we can compare dry vs. wet traction d) When you do tire comparisons, how about comparing different tires and providing two graphs for each tire-dry and wet?
Igor Gershteyn
Long Island, NY

This is an excellent analysis of the G-G plot and shows just how much information is available from a GPS-based data acquisition system. Here is a similar plot to what we ran in the article in question, with the axis labeled. This represents our man Kento riding clockwise at Buttonwillow on a literbike equipped with DOT race tires. G-forces depend not only on the tire characteristics, but also the track-bumps, camber, radius and altitude all affect how much lateral acceleration can be applied and can make the graph lopsided from left to right. Maximum braking is limited by the rear wheel coming off the ground as well as available traction (just as acceleration is limited by the engine's power as much as traction), explaining some of the differences top to bottom. I always have a couple of martinis before looking at data, it definitely helps.""

awesome.. that is a great post!! It confirms what I've said all along.. ^^

First... BAD ASS THREAD!!! I'll be reading this before I go to the track in March. Lots of good points, especially from you Joe. :cool

Turn your head into the corner, open the throttle a bit to get the bike back to neutral weight, and just FUCKING TURN...... you will probably make it.
...
If you dont think you are about to tuck it, then just fucking turn... the bike can make it.

Trail-braking won't make the bike stand up; however, grabbing brake mid-corner will have the same effect as rolling on too much power. It'll stand up like a porn-star's dick after popping a bottle of Cialis. Like Joe and Toe say, at this stage of experience, if you're coming in too hot all you've gotta do is get your ass over in the seat and lean that whore as hard as you can.

These two quotes answer this thread more accurately than any other. In most cases it's the rider thinking he/she can't get through the turn that fucks the whole situation up. A little while back (After rebuilding my Hyo following my freindly nudge with a guard rail :dissapointed) I was riding out in hill country when I came too hot into a turn. In that first mili-second I went into freak out mode. I felt the chassis - in that split second - begin to become unsettled. But I literally said out loud in my helmet, "look through the fucking turn and push the bar, the bike has more than you think". Another milisecond later I was on the throttle, looking far through the turn, my spine lined up with the bike and my right ass cheak off the seat.

Needless to say I made it home in one piece and gained the most important thing I could: Experience. Failure is the root of all success. Slowly push your own limits, finding them, and learning how to surpass them. You'll always find another, but that's the fun in the sport - breaking the limits.





If you want to take it back to the MSF Course, think like this:

Slow: Slow down before the turn as much as you think you should. This is where judgement and experience comes into play. Although it's up for debate, Kieth Code reccomends you get all your braking done before the turn.

Look: Look far through the turn. The closer you look, the faster things are going to move, and that means less time to react. When you speed up the time you have to react, you don't have the "fast riders have slow hands" concept Joe talked about. Look far through the turn.

Press: Press the damn bar! The bike will turn, I promise! Most of the time (we're talking street riding here) you have a lot more lean angle left over that you don't think you have. So push the inside bar and the bike will go.

Lean: Lean off the seat. But don't do it wrong, because that is just as bad as jamming on the brakes. A while back in another thread Joe explained proper body position, and it enlightened me like no other line of text ever had. Lean off the bike perfectly and you will have all the traction you can get out of your tires that you can queeze from BP, and that will leave more for the Oh Shit moments. Lean correctly off the bike.

^Hopefully that brings people back to the basics and helps them understand. The only reason that pro racers like Schwantz, Code, Spies, Hayden, etc are able to go as fast as they do is because they do all the basics perfectly every time and in smooth harmony.

also don't forget that just the steering input of turning the bike will slow it down. so if you're coming into a corner, thinking you're a bit fast, just remember that as soon as you initiate the turn you will slow down a bit.

I always forget this. Then I wonder why I feel like I'm going slow through the turn and have to give it more throttle than I thought I would. You do scrub off alot on entry. That's a very good thing to remember. :thumbup

The rear brake is alot less powerful than the front, alot less chance of locking it up.

I disagree 100% It is sooo much easier to lock up the rear. When you get hard on the brakes, all the wieght is transfered to the front of the bike, leaving ZERO traction in the rear. You either need to use the brake 100% of the time, or 0% of the time. You either use it all the time and know the rear brake as well as the front, or you don't use it at all and concetrate as much as you can on the front brake. Jam on the rear brake in an Oh Shit moment when you're not used to using it and you WILL lock up your rear tire. Now imagine if you have to get off the brakes and steer hard to avoid something when your rear tire is sliding accross the ground. Can anyone say "Highside"?

Also, even at low speeds I would practice these techniques. I don't ride nearly as fast on the street as I do on the track, however I still like to practice body positioning and whatnot so that I can gain that muscle memory even when I'm not on the track. I probably look like a retard going 5mph hanging off the bike (okay so I'm exaggerating...but you get the picture) but it helps so that when I do go to the track, I already am in the habit of using certain techniques. Not all techniques can be practiced on the street though, and the track really is the best place.

Although I need to hurry up and get my ass to the track and quit tooling around in hill country, I practice my [primitive] body position all the time. I get better and better at it, and it has saved my hide quite a few times when rogue San Antonio cagers decide they want my lane in a curve on 281 :scared IMO - If you're always riding with perfect body position, you always have the maximum amount of traction.

If a bike could talk, more often than not it would tell us to get the fuck off of it, because we are fucking it up :lol

:spit :lmao Holy shit that's hilarious! You are forever in my siggy :lmao :spit

New Keith Code DVD...Buy it.

Everything discussed in this thread is in that vid, dissected, explained, and applied.

the rear brake is alot less powerful than the front, alot less chance of locking it up.

I disagree 100% It is sooo much easier to lock up the rear. When you get hard on the brakes, all the wieght is transfered to the front of the bike, leaving ZERO traction in the rear. You either need to use the brake 100% of the time, or 0% of the time. You either use it all the time and know the rear brake as well as the front, or you don't use it at all and concetrate as much as you can on the front brake. Jam on the rear brake in an Oh Shit moment when you're not used to using it and you WILL lock up your rear tire. Now imagine if you have to get off the brakes and steer hard to avoid something when your rear tire is sliding accross the ground. Can anyone say "Highside"?


what? did i really say that? :ohmy

just to clear things up, you gotta take my above comment in it's original context. i was talking about newer riders, on the street and regular daily riding. think for example that you're making a reasonably sharp turn out of a driveway onto a steep street. you turn out and start heading down the hill - if someone suddenly pulls out in front of you or a kid runs out or whatever - the newer rider will have alot more chance of locking the front when they panic and grab a handfull of brakes, compared with stomping on the rear brake lever. the same thing goes for riding in the rain on streets where you're not sure if there could be oil/diesel etc. just around the corner.

Well, when you consider weight transfer, and the fact that most people have better motor skills in their hands (compared to ankles), I would say that it's much Much easier to lock the rear.

It takes quite a bit to lock the front wheel in a straight line; a four finger panic grab is the only way I know to lock it. Well, I guess there is another way; if you bottom the front end under braking, then hit a decent bump, you can lock it up. The tire has to squish a little more than it likes, and when it springs back, your contact patch goes from alaska sized, to hawaii sized and you low side.

Actually, anything that causes the tire to unload could lead to this situation, the example I gave is just what's happened to me in the past. Now, if you're leaned all the way over and you grab a big 0l' handful of brake, you'll be on the ground quicker than you can blink.

A locked rear is usually easier to deal with, but it's not much good for getting the bike stopped, and while a new rider can probably deal with this feeling on a mountain bike, it freaks a lot of people out when it happens on a 400 lb+ motorcycle.

Great thread! Just in time for my questions about body position(noob to sport bikes).
First one. Here's an example. Left hand turn. Right knee is hugging the tank. Left foot is in the middle(or closer to the heal guard) of the foot peg. How much body mass do I have to shift towards the the inside of the turn? In simple terms: how much do I need to get off the seat?
Second. How do you find maximum lean angle?

Great thread! Just in time for my questions about body position(noob to sport bikes).
First one. Here's an example. Left hand turn. Right knee is hugging the tank. Left foot is in the middle(or closer to the heal guard) of the foot peg. How much body mass do I have to shift towards the the inside of the turn? In simple terms: how much do I need to get off the seat?
Second. How do you find maximum lean angle?
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115622&d=1247633308
you dont hang off much. See pic above.
max lean angle is when somethig is tuching the ground. the knee shoud touch first. also see pic above.

Great thread! Just in time for my questions about body position(noob to sport bikes).
First one. Here's an example. Left hand turn. Right knee is hugging the tank. Left foot is in the middle(or closer to the heal guard) of the foot peg. How much body mass do I have to shift towards the the inside of the turn? In simple terms: how much do I need to get off the seat?
Second. How do you find maximum lean angle?


About one full cheek of the seat. Upper body in line with center line of bike.

Imagine a full race tuck (on a straight) slid over one full cheek. That is basically where you want to be. There is a bit more to it than that (hands, feet, hooking your outside leg etc) but that is how far.

As for max lean....... if you fall down you went too far :lol. When the knee touches you are getting close. When the pegs touch you are getting REALLY close. But you can fall down before either touch if you are not smooth. Max lean is dependent on track surface, weather, bike, rider etc. Only you know your max lean

Upper body in line with center line of bike.

So the riders BP pic posted above your post is off?

No, it is right. Parallel to center line of bike would be a better way to put it.

Like I said. Take a full race tuck. slide everything as one unit over till one cheek hangs off, stick knee out........ you have close to textbook body position.

One cheek off. Head behind mirror, Opposite armpit over gas gap. Chest low.

No, it is right. Parallel to center line of bike would be a better way to put it.

Like I said. Take a full race tuck. slide everything as one unit over till one cheek hangs off, stick knee out........ you have close to textbook body position.

One cheek off. Head behind mirror, Opposite armpit over gas gap. Chest low.

like this

128711

Yes, somewhat. He is reaching for the ground though with his elbow.

I way over simplified it too. Also keep in mind it is a goal... ideal. Every persons body type, size, shap, fitness, and the bike play in to varrying it some. I dont get my chest as low as that pic. I probably should get lower than I do though

Yes, somewhat. He is reaching for the ground though with his elbow.

I way over simplified it too. Also keep in mind it is a goal... ideal. Every persons body type, size, shap, fitness, and the bike play in to varrying it some. I dont get my chest as low as that pic. I probably should get lower than I do though

I bet not getting as low as you should is a left over remnant from mx.

No, it is right. Parallel to center line of bike would be a better way to put it.

Like I said. Take a full race tuck. slide everything as one unit over till one cheek hangs off, stick knee out........ you have close to textbook body position.

One cheek off. Head behind mirror, Opposite armpit over gas gap. Chest low.

Like this....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v652/WillWong927/Newtrackphoto.jpg

:biggrin

Like this....



:biggrin
ok ok you have nice pic s too.:lmao

I bet not getting as low as you should is a left over remnant from mx.
without a doubt. My BP used to be HORRIBLE, and it was because of MX, and ATV racing. It still is not ideal, but it is as good as I feel I can comfortably get it for me

without a doubt. My BP used to be HORRIBLE, and it was because of MX, and ATV racing. It still is not ideal, but it is as good as I feel I can comfortably get it for me

I am starting to get more comfy with getting my head low and to the inside, but it still feels weird. I feel like I don't have as good of control, but I think I actually have better control.. I just have to get past that mental block.. I think more speed will come with that as well, i seem to have hit a little wall at around 1:25:500 at jennings.. I think my stock 600 with good track tires should probably be able to go 20's or so, and I think I am giving up some mid corner speed by not getting my upper body down and over. I wasn't even really thinking about BP last time out (last summer), but when I looked at the pics it was obvious that I was way to upright and centered as far as my head was concerned...

practice, practice....

ok ok you have nice pic s too.:lmao

No no not as nice as yours..... elbow dragging is the shizzle. :biggrin

I dont get my chest as low as that pic. I probably should get lower than I do though

+1 also body type like bigger guys with large upper bodies compared to smaller guys play a role as well.

The best advice I got at a track schools was to use the ideal body position as a model and tweak it to what works for your body type without going to far off the ideal body position.

Thanks guys! Got a lot of homework to do for this summer

Amazingly, no mention of "A Twist of the Wrist", by Keith Code. Put it under your pillow.
http://www.keenzo.com/showproduct.asp?ID=2511543

Amazingly, no mention of "A Twist of the Wrist", by Keith Code. Put it under your pillow.
http://www.keenzo.com/showproduct.asp?ID=2511543

Yeah... He's not so up to date on things like BP or trail braking. Some of the things in Twist and even Twist II are a little out dated. I'm sure they teach BP at CSS, but the examples in the books are just Bad.

brakes on !!
http://p1.bikepics.com/pics/2010%5C06%5C07%5Cbikepics-1992370-full.jpg

oh hell yeah!

...

but are you sure you mean "brakes", and not just "brake"?

at the end is the rear but it is starts with full front brakes and then the rear brake "makes" this photo.... :)