I recently had a conversation with one of my riding buddies and he told me from what he read in twist of the wrist is that you should try to take the tightest line possible and progressively increase your throttle so that you're "forced" to use up the whole track instead of "taking that line" even if you don't have to.

My last time on the track I hit every apex with ease and never ran wide. Does that mean I'm not carrying enough corner speed? I'm already trailbraking into corners and I feel like that's the fastest I can enter a corner without running wide. And I'm back on the throttle once I'm at the apex.

Is there another method for me to go into a turn even faster carrying more corner speed to the point that it pushes me outwards as I'm exiting?

The trick is to try and get back on the throttle before you get to the apex.

^ yeah true.... but if you're getting through a corner with plenty of room to either side of you you probably could have gone a bit faster

my first day at BW i wasn't using the whole track for any of the turns, but by the second day there were two or three that i was cruising through using most of the track.... also good even if you're not going THAT fast cuz it'll make people have to work to pass you

^ yeah true.... but if you're getting through a corner with plenty of room to either side of you you probably could have gone a bit faster

He's on a 600 so he may already be WOT coming out of the turn. Will is the quickest guy I ride with. I know the last few times I went riding I made a conscious effort to pick up the throttle before I got to the apex. I could feel the difference in exit speed.

oh dude i meant the second part for Will, i completely agree with you.... more throttle the better:cheers

He's on a 600 so he may already be WOT coming out of the turn. Will is the quickest guy I ride with. I know the last few times I went riding I made a conscious effort to pick up the throttle before I got to the apex. I could feel the difference in exit speed.

That makes sense..... I think my entry speed is too fast because I'm still slightly on the brakes by the time I hit the apex. I'm using the point and shoot technique better suited for 1k's. Good thing is that nobody has outbraked me going into turns even in the race group, but I feel like I'm not carrying the maximum corner speed that my bike and tires are capable of.

I'm going to try your method Mike..... go slower into the turns and get on the throttle early before I hit the apex. I'll see how that works for me for next Sunday's trackday :cheers

oh dude i meant the second part for Will, i completely agree with you.... more throttle the better:cheers

If you ever watch a NASCAR race you'll see exactly what I mean. When they have an onboard camera and they show the throttle display you can see how they drive it in to the apex. A tight car will pick up the throttle past the apex but a loose car will be on the throttle prior to the apex.

go slower into the turns and get on the throttle early before I hit the apex

maybe not slower, just start your turn in a little earlier while feeding the gas waiting for that thing to start coming back upright

That makes sense..... I think my entry speed is too fast because I'm still slightly on the brakes by the time I hit the apex. I'm using the point and shoot technique better suited for 1k's. Good thing is that nobody has outbraked me going into turns even in the race group, but I feel like I'm not carrying the maximum corner speed that my bike and tires are capable of.

I'm going to try your method Mike..... go slower into the turns and get on the throttle early before I hit the apex. I'll see how that works for me for next Sunday's trackday :cheers
Yep slower in faster out.:cheers Will just imagine if we could ride GMR using both lanes.:punk The wider the arc the higher the speed.

maybe not slower, just start your turn in a little earlier while feeding the gas waiting for that thing to start coming back upright

That too! I have eight 20 minute sessions so I have plenty of time to experiment. After riding with some really fast people I realized my corner speed is shit. I'm great entering into corners and I'm great at romping on the gas exiting. But I could definitely use some faster cornering speed. I might even try not dragging knee, because I realized that once my knee touches down I'm less agressive on the gas.

maybe not slower, just start your turn in a little earlier while feeding the gas waiting for that thing to start coming back upright

this isnt the right approach. you have to reduce the amount of time your are at full lean not increase it. your approach to the corner should be dictated by your exit line. and usually that means delaying tipping the bike in until after you might think you should. particularly in tight turns. dont dilly dally in the tip in either go in hard and fast right to full lean. leaving it later will allow you to drive a later and straighter apex and therefore be on the gas sooner.

the problem with late braking, as you are finding out, is that you arent riding for your exit line, but rather your entry, and the exit is something that happens after that, reverse your thinking and you will shed seconds. and the other problem is of course it is hard to arrive at a good corner speed safely because inevitably you are overloading the front, so over braking is common.

this isnt the right approach. you have to reduce the amount of time your are at full lean not increase it. your approach to the corner should be dictated by your exit line. and usually that means delaying tipping the bike in until after you might think you should. particularly in tight turns. dont dilly dally in the tip in either go in hard and fast right to full lean. leaving it later will allow you to drive a later and straighter apex and therefore be on the gas sooner.

the problem with late braking, as you are finding out, is that you arent riding for your exit line, but rather your entry, and the exit is something that happens after that, reverse your thinking and you will shed seconds. and the other problem is of course it is hard to arrive at a good corner speed safely because inevitably you are overloading the front, so over braking is common.

What you're saying is that I should change my arch to a tighter arch to shoot for an exit line? I do that for really tight turns, doing the quick dip.

But how do you do that for faster turns? Wouldn't it require me to slow down too much mid corner?

no what im saying is you should probably be delaying when you initially tip the bike in. that will in effect, lengthen your brake zone, shorten your time at full lean and allow you a straighter exit. all things that will make you faster.

your best bet is to get behind someone fast. do what they do. dont try and out brake them, stay on their ass going in and try and stay with them on the exit. and i dont mean intermediate group fast, i mean race group fast. you may only get a corner or two, but pay attention to where they start their turns. seeing as you are on a 600 you would be better to be mainly paying attention to the fast 600 guys as the 1000s have a slightly tighter line.

no what im saying is you should probably be delaying when you initially tip the bike in. that will in effect, lengthen your brake zone, shorten your time at full lean and allow you a straighter exit. all things that will make you faster.

your best bet is to get behind someone fast. do what they do. dont try and out brake them, stay on their ass going in and try and stay with them on the exit. and i dont mean intermediate group fast, i mean race group fast. you may only get a corner or two, but pay attention to where they start their turns. seeing as you are on a 600 you would be better to be mainly paying attention to the fast 600 guys as the 1000s have a slightly tighter line.

Alright I'll try both methods :cheers

My friend who is riding a 1000 race bike is also riding race group, but he's got 70 more hp than I do so even though we're running similar lap times its hard for me to follow him. I'll try to make friends with a 600 rider that day :chucks

Wuzup Will! Hey man i wish i could hit up calspeedway with you guys on sunday but i probably gonna miss this months track day. Anyway ill keep this simple "if it aint broke dont fix it!". Basically if your going to track days and youve ridin with the race group id say just keep riding the way youve been riding and youll get alot faster eventually! Changing your style could probably result in laying your bike down. In response to antf's advice "watch some fast 1000 or 600 guy and ride on his ass and try to do their lines into turns" is not a good way to get faster. You might already know this but taking a turn at someone elses speed-which you think you could handle might take you in way too hot and youll definetely run wide(hopefully not laying your bike down!). Im just letting you know whats worked with me over the years and which method made me faster!

OH YEAH one more thing Will i think it was mentioned to try not going into the turn and all the way to the apex without braking??? IF YOUR A FAST RIDER YOU ALMOST ALWAYS ALWAYS ENTER ABOUT 95% OF THE TIME INTO THE TURN AND ALL THE WAY TO THE APEX WITH SOMETYPE OF BRAKING BEING ENGAGED! Unless the other 5% of the time your entering a 100+mph turn when you hardly never get on the brakes before or during your lean approach. All im saying Will is based on your previous explanation of the way you enter a turn it doesnt sound like you need to try to change anything...JUST RIDE AND WORK A LITTLE HARDER IN GOING FASTER AND YOU WILL! TRY NOT TO MAKE IT TOO "TECHNICAL"!!!

Wuzup Will! Hey man i wish i could hit up calspeedway with you guys on sunday but i probably gonna miss this months track day. Anyway ill keep this simple "if it aint broke dont fix it!". Basically if your going to track days and youve ridin with the race group id say just keep riding the way youve been riding and youll get alot faster eventually! Changing your style could probably result in laying your bike down. In response to antf's advice "watch some fast 1000 or 600 guy and ride on his ass and try to do their lines into turns" is not a good way to get faster. You might already know this but taking a turn at someone elses speed-which you think you could handle might take you in way too hot and youll definetely run wide(hopefully not laying your bike down!). Im just letting you know whats worked with me over the years and which method made me faster!

Hey what's up Jason :cheers

Thanks for the advice, I just figured there must be something I can do different to shave a couple more seconds off my time. I've been thinking a lot and it seems that my riding isn't really fully extracting the capabilities of a 600. I'm fast in fast out, but in between I'm most likely going slooowwww since I'm hitting the apex so easily and on exit I'm not being pushed out of turns. I'm running d209's with warmers this time so hopefully that will enable to me get on the gas a lot earlier.

As you already know my bike has already been laid down once, and at this point I'm willing to lay it down again if it means going that much faster. Crashing is a part of going fast.... I feel like I'm not pushing it hard enough on the track. But we'll see how it goes. I might be going again on May 11th would you be able to make it out?

i heard there was one in april sometime. If i dont go to april ill go to the may 11th one. But for sure ill be going to a track day soon. i was supposed to go to this months but things came up. Well goodluck on your session sunday!!!Have fun and like others have recommended to you b4 try not to think too much of the "how to's" in entering/exiting a turn. Oh by the way which group you going to ride with this time?

i heard there was one in april sometime. If i dont go to april ill go to the may 11th one. But for sure ill be going to a track day soon. i was supposed to go to this months but things came up. Well goodluck on your session sunday!!!Have fun and like others have recommended to you b4 try not to think too much of the "how to's" in entering/exiting a turn. Oh by the way which group you going to ride with this time?

A fellow GDC member sent me twist of the wrist 2 and I've been reading it for the past hour. It really helped a lot, especially the 40/60 thing where we aren't really rolling on the throttle as hard as we think we are. Or shall I say we aren't rolling on as hard as we really should. And rolling on the throttle as early as possible like what Mike said earlier.

I'm going with SCARS, there's about 8 of us riding that day. If you have time you should drop by and hang out.

ill try but it would be just a tease if i go and just watch you guys have fun on the track. Are you going in L2 or L3?

ill try but it would be just a tease if i go and just watch you guys have fun on the track. Are you going in L2 or L3?

L3 sir

anyone from scars going to L3?

anyone from scars going to L3?

My twin... Duc Will. The rest are all doing L1.

ill try to make it! Confirming sunday right?

ill try to make it! Confirming sunday right?

Yup 3/30 Sunday..... I'm going to try to make it out there at the butt crack of dawn so I can get the garage where the bathroom is at. Hope to see you there mang :biggrin

Ssssweeet! MUST BE NICE!! OK WILL LATES!

Some good info here...

I would probably say go to a specific school, race school, cornering school etc.

Having the attitude of "im not crashing, so I can go harder" is old school. Im not saying you have that attitude exactly, but there are cheaper ways to find time around the track. Crashing hurts and can break bones, shatter confidence etc.

Maybe even invest in a video camera so you can review the day, look at where your tipping in and your speed, where your cracking maintanace, your apex speed and where your rolling on.

Some good info here...

I would probably say go to a specific school, race school, cornering school etc.

Having the attitude of "im not crashing, so I can go harder" is old school. Im not saying you have that attitude exactly, but there are cheaper ways to find time around the track. Crashing hurts and can break bones, shatter confidence etc.

Maybe even invest in a video camera so you can review the day, look at where your tipping in and your speed, where your cracking maintanace, your apex speed and where your rolling on.

Well from what I heard in the past by much faster guys is that crashing is a part of going fast. Of course I'd prefer not to crash but I certainly don't mind because that's just a part of riding. All I can do is wear good gear and hope for the best.

And I agree that there are cheaper ways.... that's why I read the twist of the wrist 2. Most of the things I knew already but there were a couple of things that might help me shave some time. Like getting on the throttle ASAP progressively, and also tipping the bike in later. I think my problem is that I tip it in too early.... I would be leaned over in some cases before I even hit the corner. And instead of opening the throttle early and progressively I have the tendency to whack it hard and I tend to wait until I'm fairly upright.

And about the racing school or riding school thing I think I'm going to ride until my speed/skill pleateaus.... and I'll attend a school when I feel like I've hit my personal limit. As for the video taping I got a new camera so I'll be recording the action this time around. :burnout

Crashings a part of riding in general.

But my point is, if you have the mindset of "Oh, I crashed, I cant go any faster" and you crash, then you wont go any faster. If your doing everything right and everything on your bikes right, and you crash, yes, your probably going as fast as the current conditions/bike allow.

Probably should have explained a bit better..

I like the vid idea, after suggesting it to you, im going to do it myself!

you have to plan for the exit not the entry. If you fill that you are slow on the exit means that you got the entry wrong even if you just overtook rossi on the entry.
Your plan is to have max speed on the exit.

you have to plan for the exit not the entry. If you fill that you are slow on the exit means that you got the entry wrong even if you just overtook rossi on the entry.
Your plan is to have max speed on the exit.

Not the fastest guy out there by any means, and most of my racing experience is in the four wheel category. I hope to ad some constructive thougts anway however. T

The idea with slow in and fast out is great on a big power bike or in moto gp, but on lighter less tourqy bikes the only way to have a fast exit is sometimes to maintain speed through the turn. Mind you this all depends on the turn itself. The best testing to do is to see what approach at the turn gives you the highest speed down the oncoming straight. If you note what speed you have before hitting the next braking point to what technique you used in the turn with entry speeds and line variations as your variables you can find out what works and what does not. Sometimes because of your gearing or powerband you might be faster going against the consensus of "best practice"

I was not trying to say slow in fast out. This advice is very good for new riders. For advanced riders this term does not apply.
I will try to explain the whole theory.

Facts:
1.You will be faster if you have more corner speed at the apex.
2. you will be faster if you late brake for that corner speed
3. you will be faster the earlier you accelerate in the corner
4. You will be faster if you have more corner speed at the exit

Theory:
1. The theory is that if you are faster on the exit of a turn by 2mph you will be faster by 2 mph for the whole next straight. This is a long distance so if you out brake a bike and loose 2mph on the apex, the bike you just overtook will pass you on the next straight.
2. our brain can calculate speed with big accuracy. I would say by 1 mph. check your lap times and find out what is the difference in average speed not in seconds and you will see.
The problem thou is that this 1mph can be calculated if there are not big changes in speed. This is where slow in and fast out comes to play. Coz you are going slow your brain can calculate the max apex speed very precisely, leading to max speed for the corner and the next straight. If you decelerate from 140mph to 60mph in a very short distance its hard to hit the 60mph.
Conclusion
You will be faster if you find the latest spot where you brake and carry the max speed on the turn.
What willgoesboing is doing is late braking beyond the point where his brain can calculate the max speed at the apex. This is leading to have less speed at the apex and exit. Thus this thread. He may overtake everybody in the brakes but he is loosing speed. Late braking and trail braking is a skill but you have to use it properly lets say when overtaking. When not overtaking you have to back off a little bit just for your brain to calculate the max speed.
:scratch:scratch

^^^ That's good advice..... next time I'll try braking a tad earlier. From what I read in the twist of the wrist 2 is that I should be starting to roll on the throttle before I hit the apex. I think my problem is that I'm holding the throttle steady through the whole corner. And I take too long to really get hard on the throttle. That might be the culprit behind my lack of corner speed. According to the book you are actually losing speed as you're cornering, and you need to roll on the throttle to even maintain speed..... so you actually need to roll on the throttle pretty aggressively to increase speed while leaned over.

That is good advice, sometimes you need to slow down in general to find time. It allows you to think clearer. I.e back to basic's. As opposed to trying to keep the bike off its side. I even do a no brakes drill on the last session but im changing that to the first session when my mind is clearer.

Braking to the apex is one thing, but when I do it stuffing it up the inside of someone its either just on the brink on balancing brake and corner speed and the bike trying to tuck or its skipping around. I dont try and do it every lap as it canes tyres and I feel one wrong move and its going down! Not only that, I feel you cant flick it in as fast while on the brakes. I might speak to the fast guys and see if they do it every lap. I might even speak to someone I passed- they might give me FB on apex speeds as usually I feel like they can start to creep up as they are on the gas sooner or have kept more momentum.

Mind you, my forks has been specifically set up to do this as I was used to dragging some sort of brake to keep the front end set in stock form.

I took out a school bike (K6 600) on Monday to show lines (I didnt have my bike there) and while the suspension is OK for a stock bike, its NOT what im used to. It was sliding under brakes even at moderate lean where I can go deep to where its on my knee up to the apex and im still modulating the brake. It made me appreciate how far my bike has come- I can feel every slip, bump and carcass flex when the fronts loaded up!

MT in riding in general should be ASAP. After you tip in, after you get off the brakes etc... ASAP!

The book says a lot of things, and it is a very good book. Nothing beats being explained in detail and someone showing you the drills and seeing why/how they work in the next session. Pretty much every person I know has come back and said its a massive eye opener. It might not make you faster straight away, but what I noticed is I can do the same pace, easier. This allowed me to use more of my brain to think about other things

The only thing with leaving it is, the longer you leave it, the longer you could be practicing bad technique or making habits, then trying to break those habits is a challenge.

I haven't read all the post, but I am reading that book also I think the whole point that is trying to be made is that you want to take the turn as tight as you can so you will be able to take it faster each time with out running out of track. If you use the whole track to take the turn the first time and you are not going as fast as possible you will never go any faster through it because you do not have the room to.

I haven't read all the post, but I am reading that book also I think the whole point that is trying to be made is that you want to take the turn as tight as you can so you will be able to take it faster each time with out running out of track. If you use the whole track to take the turn the first time and you are not going as fast as possible you will never go any faster through it because you do not have the room to.

Not me. The quickest way between two points is a straight line. The wider the arc the straighter the turn. Hence the faster you can go provided it doesn't mess up the next turn. The apex is the center of the turn. The point I was trying to make is to pick up the throttle prior to hitting the apex instead of right at the apex.:cheers

my first day at BW i wasn't using the whole track for any of the turns, but by the second day there were two or three that i was cruising through using most of the track.... also good even if you're not going THAT fast cuz it'll make people have to work to pass you

Track days are not supposed to be race events, you should not be worried about stopping other riders from passing you. :nono

yeah but it sure does feel good to win the trackday..... :rolleyes

Will how did it go?

Will how did it go?

Could've been better.... it was showering early morning, then dried up but turned super windy. The bike's handling was 100% perfect, thanks to the suspension guy that adjusted it the day before and d209 with warmers. But my riding sucked balls, I was rusty and wasn't up to par. Only managed a best of 1:42. :banghead

There's a pic here:

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=178015

Looked good though. Did you try anything different?

Looked good though. Did you try anything different?

I made a conscious effort to roll on the throttle and the dot race tires and warmers made that really easy. But I definitely could've been a lot more aggressive with it though. Oh well maybe next time :chucks

I made a conscious effort to roll on the throttle and the dot race tires and warmers made that really easy. But I definitely could've been a lot more aggressive with it though. Oh well maybe next time :chucks

I was just curious. How quick have you been before?

I was just curious. How quick have you been before?

Last time I was there my best lap was a 1:44. I'm definitely quicker this time but that's because I'm equipped with a quickshifter, dot race tires w/ warmers and my lines were a bit better. But I wasn't braking as late/hard this time and wasn't as smooth.

Last time I was there my best lap was a 1:44. I'm definitely quicker this time but that's because I'm equipped with a quickshifter, dot race tires w/ warmers and my lines were a bit better. But I wasn't braking as late/hard this time and wasn't as smooth.

OIC. I have been working on being smooth up at GMR. It's kind of wierd but I seem to have a better feel for the rear tire now.:dunno

OIC. I have been working on being smooth up at GMR. It's kind of wierd but I seem to have a better feel for the rear tire now.:dunno

Try riding in 1 gear.... and in a gear too high for the conditions.... and don't use the brakes. That will force you to be smooth.

Try riding in 1 gear.... and in a gear too high for the conditions.... and don't use the brakes. That will force you to be smooth.

I run GMR in 2nd gear all the way except for the straights. That's the reason for a 46T sprocket.:biggrin I use the brakes but I know I don't hit them as hard as I used to. Can't recall the last time I used two fingers.:cheers

Just wanted to ad that using the whole track is probably the number one way to improve lap times. It might be obvious to the level of rider that posted here, but for any oobs reading this post utilizing the whole with of the track is key. I keep seeing guys pulling in waay to early before a turn...... Stay close to the grass as long as possible before turning in and aim for the grass on the outside even if you feel you can run a tighter line. This saves on tires and allows you to get harder on the throttle because the bike is more upright puttin more tire on the ground.

you are right..... but it can be hazardous and is rather inpolite if you are slow in a fast group to be riding like that.

i had a guy the other day, who for some unknown reason had nominated himself into the racer group. he rode like that but extremely slow, so coming up on him at pace he looked like he was going take a wide line but then he would jam it across right onto the inside rumble strip and right to the outside. he got the finger from me as we came within a whisker of rubbing fairings.

no what im saying is you should probably be delaying when you initially tip the bike in. that will in effect, lengthen your brake zone, shorten your time at full lean and allow you a straighter exit. all things that will make you faster.

your best bet is to get behind someone fast. do what they do. dont try and out brake them, stay on their ass going in and try and stay with them on the exit. and i dont mean intermediate group fast, i mean race group fast. you may only get a corner or two, but pay attention to where they start their turns. seeing as you are on a 600 you would be better to be mainly paying attention to the fast 600 guys as the 1000s have a slightly tighter line.


GREAT advice. I am going to try that as well. I am having the same issue. I turn in to quickly.

GREAT advice. I am going to try that as well. I am having the same issue. I turn in to quickly.

use referense points.

I made a conscious effort to roll on the throttle and the dot race tires and warmers made that really easy. But I definitely could've been a lot more aggressive with it though. Oh well maybe next time :chucks

Sounds to me like you had a very good outing. Sounds like you may have shedded some "hacky" tendencies and went faster as a result.

.

Sounds to me like you had a very good outing. Sounds like you may have shedded some "hacky" tendencies and went faster as a result.

.

I improved on my lines and had better tires but I was more timid in braking and acceleration. I haven't learned what the limit is of how much and how early I can open up the throttle with super sticky tires. I'm going back to that track in 3 weeks and I will be more aggressive this time. :chucks

I step up my carry-in speed by hanging as far out of a turn as possible. Say were are about to 90 degree right. WOT I like to do is stay has high left as possible. When I hear reflectors under my tires from that yellow line (streets meaning), I'm on that ragged edge left and ready for more carry-in speed.

I am not in middle or three quarters track somewhere off center. I want to use all that carry-in throttle speed and while we are braking for the same corner, you are going to arch out once you hit the apex. Your arch out is to the left once you kill the apex.

Here I am taking all that speed farther up the track and now the arc in is to say right side track and kiss a late apex. Here you are on the brakes at the two third track width. I am full track line left and being that high and away from the apex, I can drive it in faster and then use that right lane as more straightaway where I am full left farther away from you by a third of that many feet used to extend my entry speed faster into the turn using more track and a sooner throttle app than your exit point and where you begin to throttle up....

I think I got you covered!

no what im saying is you should probably be delaying when you initially tip the bike in. that will in effect, lengthen your brake zone, shorten your time at full lean and allow you a straighter exit. all things that will make you faster.

your best bet is to get behind someone fast. do what they do. dont try and out brake them, stay on their ass going in and try and stay with them on the exit. and i dont mean intermediate group fast, i mean race group fast. you may only get a corner or two, but pay attention to where they start their turns. seeing as you are on a 600 you would be better to be mainly paying attention to the fast 600 guys as the 1000s have a slightly tighter line.


that is called squaring up the corner. works in all types of racing. Jeremy Mcgrath was the king of doing it on flat corners in outdoor mx. If you do it right, and in the right place, you can make big gains, and it is safer as you are not leaning as much on exit when trying to pick up the throttle.