hey gang. i'm here to ask you seasoned racers about trail braking. i'm familiar with this but for cars. figuring that applying some brake makes a bike want to stand up a little could certainly change the trail braking technique some what for a motorcylce. so....could someone please enlighten me on the proper way to trail brake? thanks in advance.

I think you've almost answered your own question :-)
What happens in a car when you apply the brake in a turn?
Bikes are essentially the same. Trail braking is trailing the brake into a turn, not applying the brake while in a turn.
I have no idea how to teach it to somebody.
Generally I think you should be avoiding it but there are turns where you need to trail the brake right into the apex - even when your knee is down. As I said, I can't teach you how to but hopefully you have a better idea about it :-)
Be safe,
Larry

I know that some guys in here will trail brake going itno a corner but when Mike Smith was at Jennings i talked to him about this and he said to get all of your braking done before diving into a corner

I can def still be on the brakes all the way to the apex on the TZ, not adviesable on a bigger bike though.

you can get on the rear brake a little bit when leaned over which tightens up your line. i never done it really, normally I can just roll off the throttle a little bit to tighten up, albeit this loads up the front...

ok. sounds like it is pretty much the same. i usually just roll off the throttle as well. i certainly know the consequences if improper trail braking, and that it's not something to take lightly. about applying a little rear brake while leaning...well...i don't know about that one...sounds a little tricky. guess it will come with more time. thanks fellas.

you can get on the rear brake a little bit when leaned over which tightens up your line. i never done it really, normally I can just roll off the throttle a little bit to tighten up, albeit this loads up the front...



I've spoken with a few guys that are able to do this but I've been riding without the rear brake for eighteen years. I'd like to try it out but I don't have the feel for it yet, can't remember to use it and don't think there's much to be gained from it after all these years :-)
I've watched the MotoGP guys. They come in hard on the front brake then, as they come out of the brake and crank into the turn they hit the rear brake just as the rear tyre comes under load again. They hold the rear until they start feeding the throttle back in. Like most GP things though I doubt it's something easily applied to a road based race bike.
Be safe,
Larry

It's not as hard as everyone makes it out to be (that or I just grasped it a lot faster than most). But think of it like this:

You have a finite amount of traction available. Let's make this magic number 100%. Braking uses up traction, cornering uses up traction, acceleration uses it up as well but we're not worried about braking and accelerating at the same time so we won't worry about going faster for now.

When you brake as hard as possible (i.e. either just about stoppieing the bike or skidding the front) you have occupied 100% of your available traction, since you can't do any more braking without causing something bad to happen.

When you are leaned over fully, i.e. any more and you would slide out or drag bike parts (or both), you have also just used up 100% of your available traction.

So trail braking is simply the action of mixing the two. I.e. when you start to corner, you are braking hard but leaning slightly - you still are only using 100% of your traction, just mixing it between the two. At about 50% lean you should have 50% braking power available, and as you approach full lean and your target speed for that lean angle and corner, you will be off the braking as now your traction is heavily lean-biased.

The trick is doing this smoothly, and knowing where you stand in terms of remaining traction at all times. It takes practice. However I do it virtually all the time on street and track and have it down pretty good now.

The advantage to doing it? You carry more speed into the corner because you haven't set up your full-lean speed until you get to full lean, vs setting up before you even start to lean the bike.

This all make sense? http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Now on accelerating it's the same principle - as you start to come out of full lean, you roll on the throttle (note during the period of full lean you are at *CONSTANT* throttle, meaning no increase or decrease - maintain your speed!). The idea is to be back at full acceleration as you come back to vertical. Yes traction affects your speed, your tires spin up a little as you add gas coming out of a lean; too much gas and you lose the bottom out of the bike and crash. The acceleration part is usually easy for people to grasp however, really trail braking is the exact same thing just in reverse. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

Tune in next week when we talk about backing it into corners... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

sweet....thanks PB. that's what i was looking for. that gives me great insight into this technique. thanks again http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

Pb, thats a great way to put it, but you gotta remeber, that turning a bike in also scrubs off a lot of speed, so less brakes needed, cause the act of friction on the turn in slows the bike

Quick Toy said:

Pb, thats a great way to put it, but you gotta remeber, that turning a bike in also scrubs off a lot of speed, so less brakes needed, cause the act of friction on the turn in slows the bike



Well, a car is the same, except more rubber on the ground.

One thing to keep in mind is that the bike is begin to slow down due the lean angle of the bike. The profile of the tire makes for a smaller diameter of tire being used (the edge) and this will automatically slow the bike down (which is the reason you usually want to roll on the gas immediately after turning in)

Quick Toy said:

Pb, thats a great way to put it, but you gotta remeber, that turning a bike in also scrubs off a lot of speed, so less brakes needed, cause the act of friction on the turn in slows the bike



Additional friction used = additional traction used. The point of trail braking remains the same however. Like I said, it takes a lot of practice to get a true "feel" for the variables at play. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PDG said:


Quick Toy said:

Pb, thats a great way to put it, but you gotta remeber, that turning a bike in also scrubs off a lot of speed, so less brakes needed, cause the act of friction on the turn in slows the bike



Well, a car is the same, except more rubber on the ground.

One thing to keep in mind is that the bike is begin to slow down due the lean angle of the bike. The profile of the tire makes for a smaller diameter of tire being used (the edge) and this will automatically slow the bike down (which is the reason you usually want to roll on the gas immediately after turning in)



Absolutely, and you can use this to your advantage - by letting the physics of the tires themselves slow you down you can apply less brakes which loads up the front less, even though the amount of traction you have available remains the same (use less on braking and more on lean). However you don't really think of it since it will always happen and that traction difference becomes a constant for the most part. Also the only time your speed is constant is at full lean anyway (at least when trail braking) so you can ignore this aspect a bit more. If you always set up your speed before you lean in, then you will need to compensate or you will slow down.

We're getting off topic here though. Tire profile will do what it does no matter how you ride. He asked what trail braking was... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I certainly don't recommend you even try to trail brake until you get a feel for the rest of it, but it can be a powerful tool.

Alright I'm tired and I don't even know if I'm making sense anymore. I may edit this tomorrow... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

is that there trail braking u boyz talkin 'bout like in dat dere biker boyz movie where dem boyz is a drag racin on a dirt road or as we call em trails and they brake from over 100 miles peeer hour to nothing in about 10 whole feet??

That trail brakin?

Quick Toy said:

is that there trail braking u boyz talkin 'bout like in dat dere biker boyz movie where dem boyz is a drag racin on a dirt road or as we call em trails and they brake from over 100 miles peeer hour to nothing in about 10 whole feet??

That trail brakin?



http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

BURN RUBBER NOT YOUR SOUL!!! http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/burnout.gif

once again....thanks guys. i certainly don't think that i'll be trying trail braking full-on because your absolutely right about being certain of everything else before getting into "advanced" techniques like that. i'm sure it'll come with time.

NERO said:

once again....thanks guys. i certainly don't think that i'll be trying trail braking full-on because your absolutely right about being certain of everything else before getting into "advanced" techniques like that. i'm sure it'll come with time.



Try it a little. You might like it! http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I'm a rank beginner relative to other track riders, so if I can do it, so can you.

Personally, I think trail braking is easiest learned by accident.

IE--you go into a corner real hot, you are on the brakes but still haven't slowed down to your 'comfortable' speed yet. You begin to tip the bike into the corner and are letting off the brakes, but not completely yet subconsciously hoping you won't tuck the front and at the same time yelling at yourself in your helmet to let off the brake lever.

Do that a couple of times and you can get a feel for the amount of braking and traction you have going into a corner.

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

A great turn to learn to trail break is turn 16 0r 17 at VIR..Its the bottom of the rollercoaster..right hander..If you plan on going into that turn with any front brakes please call me..im in the mood to watch someone tuck the front http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/banana.gif J/K

PDG said:

Personally, I think trail braking is easiest learned by accident.

IE--you go into a corner real hot, you are on the brakes but still haven't slowed down to your 'comfortable' speed yet. You begin to tip the bike into the corner and are letting off the brakes, but not completely yet subconsciously hoping you won't tuck the front and at the same time yelling at yourself in your helmet to let off the brake lever.

Do that a couple of times and you can get a feel for the amount of braking and traction you have going into a corner.

http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif



I agree with this. It is very hard to practice this in the beginning. You usually discover your trail braking limits because you fucked up going in to the corner. But hey, now you know you CAN go into the corner that hot and still make it. This is pretty much how I learned, by accident. And then it was like "Whoa...I can brake that far into a turn?! Sweet!!" And now it is almost second nature to brake that far in, although I'm still ahoping and apraying that my front tire will stick. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PDB said:
...now it is almost second nature to brake that far in, although I'm still ahoping and apraying that my front tire will stick. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif



about that. on my rear tires...i have reached to the edge. but on the front...they're not as scrubbed as they are on the back. is that something to do with my riding style or is that just the way it is because of counter steer?

It means yer going into the corner too slow.

Countersteer has nothing to do with it. The only way a motorcycle CAN turn is from countersteer.

too slow huh? well i am street riding. hhhmmm....maybe i am....actually i probably am. well....i think i need to get my butt to the track so i rcan eally exploit these techniques because i will only go so fast on the street. especially on those blind turns in the canyons where you just never know about traffic. the track is starting to sound more and more like where i should be riding as opposed to the street.

you guys have been very helpful. all of you put together are like an encyclopedia of riding/racing. i love it http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Whoa, disclaimer time... I would ONLY try this stuff on the track!!! If you fuck up, you have runoff or at least a nice big patch of grass on the other side to slide on. The street is no place to be riding like a racer!

You definitely need to get to the track, just be forewarned - it's addictive as hell and you will want nothing else but to do that after you try. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/cheers.gif http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

NERO said:


PDB said:
...now it is almost second nature to brake that far in, although I'm still ahoping and apraying that my front tire will stick. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif



about that. on my rear tires...i have reached to the edge. but on the front...they're not as scrubbed as they are on the back. is that something to do with my riding style or is that just the way it is because of counter steer?



Nah, that usually has to do with tire profiles. Specifically speaking about street riding, on my 208ZRs, the front wasn't even close to the edge. Mounted up the Metzler M1's and I had worn them to the edge on the 2nd day, and I changed absolutely nothing and I wasn't even riding as aggressive as I was on the ZRs. But the lack of wear on front vs back is from tire profile. Granted, if you go to the track, you'll have both front and rear to the edge.

But, just think of it this way: if you are already to the edge on the rear and not the edge on the front...what is the rear like when you get the front to the edge? http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

PDB said:


NERO said:


PDB said:
...now it is almost second nature to brake that far in, although I'm still ahoping and apraying that my front tire will stick. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif



about that. on my rear tires...i have reached to the edge. but on the front...they're not as scrubbed as they are on the back. is that something to do with my riding style or is that just the way it is because of counter steer?



Nah, that usually has to do with tire profiles. Specifically speaking about street riding, on my 208ZRs, the front wasn't even close to the edge. Mounted up the Metzler M1's and I had worn them to the edge on the 2nd day, and I changed absolutely nothing and I wasn't even riding as aggressive as I was on the ZRs. But the lack of wear on front vs back is from tire profile. Granted, if you go to the track, you'll have both front and rear to the edge.

But, just think of it this way: if you are already to the edge on the rear and not the edge on the front...what is the rear like when you get the front to the edge? http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif



you have some good points....and it just so happens that i have 208ZR's on. so it acutally sounds like i am doing ok. thanks again guys...and it looks like i'll be doing some more research as to how much things cost to be going to the track regularly. stuff like tires, fuel, and how it costs to use up some track time. i want to do it...i just hope that the cost doesn't restrict me. i really dont wan to have to be riding my bike only one weekend a month. thanks again.