at least the way these bikes were designed to be riden that is... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

yeah i got one.... why are you such a pansie?????? oh wait that is a different topic and forum, nevermind.... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/bounce.gif

lol... bring on the 16's this weekend.(please no rain)

and sure enough 16's were brought... and i was only kidding (have i mentioned i was running a spent front tire already. lol)

I'll ask a question. Rebound dampening in the rear. Explain what to look for while the bike is stationary and what it should feel like while riding. This is a track oriented question but has a street application also. Mainly what it should feel like entering and exiting a corner.

I guess I've got one...

I know there are tons of write ups about how to lean into turns and stuff, and I've read all of them, but none really seem to mention how you get *INTO* the right position!

Worst of all, every time I watch a race on SPEED, I figure maybe I can catch a glimpse of one of the riders from behind as he goes from upright to leaning over - and be able to see what he does and when, but those friggin cameras always switch to a front view when they enter a damned turn!

I'm not anywhere near doing a track day yet (need more confidence in my riding first), but we have some decent on/off ramps here that I have practiced on. So far I have only tried leaning out once or twice (like you're doing in your sig pic bmfgsxr), but it felt so odd and my turning actually was worse than when I just stayed straight and brought the bike over with me.

I haven't come close to scraping anything on the bike, and I'm going about 20-35km/hr slower than my friends who lean over and scrape their pegs and can in the same turns. My turning is OK I think, and of course more practice can't hurt. I wore my rear tire down to about just over 1cm worth of chicken strip left to get an idea of how far I was over.

I'd really like to know how you get from a vertical sitting position to the leaned over position - what body parts you move and in what order, where to shift weight etc... I really want to get it right to begin with so I don't develop any bad habits, only to be told to break them when I finally go for take a racing course in another year or so.

So far, all I've been told is point your leading foot into the turn to get the knee out - but I've tried it and it just feels weird and I think I'm doing it wrong. I'm 6'2" and I can't touch my toes when sitting down with my legs out without killing my legs (couldn't even do that when I was in perfect shape playing soccer years back - just not flexible enough) if that affects any feedback.

Maybe a video of someone doing turns properly from behind would really help to see what moves to do on the bike?

Well, here's part of my answer!

http://images.motograndprix.com/multimedia2/247/247619.wmv

I watched that about 3 times through and it looks like they must armor-all their seats or something, because I can't slide that easy from side to side. Do they do it with just leg muscles lifting their ass off a bit and moving, or do they use their arms? Or is it really just a slippy slidey seat they have?

I also noticed that they do put their toe out in the direction of the turn - is it to feel the ground? Cause they seem to have both their toe and knee sliders touching just barely, then once they feel the first contact they know how much they can bring their knee in to have the bike at more of a lean.

Oh and HOLY SHIT I don't think I'll ever have my bike over *THAT* far. Crazy, just crazy http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

nutbar said:
Well, here's part of my answer!

http://images.motograndprix.com/multimedia2/247/247619.wmv

I watched that about 3 times through and it looks like they must armor-all their seats or something, because I can't slide that easy from side to side. Do they do it with just leg muscles lifting their ass off a bit and moving, or do they use their arms? Or is it really just a slippy slidey seat they have?

I also noticed that they do put their toe out in the direction of the turn - is it to feel the ground? Cause they seem to have both their toe and knee sliders touching just barely, then once they feel the first contact they know how much they can bring their knee in to have the bike at more of a lean.

Oh and HOLY SHIT I don't think I'll ever have my bike over *THAT* far. Crazy, just crazy http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif



If your having problems sliding off the seat...then you have to much of your weight on the seat, support your weight with your legs, so that you can raise above the seat just enough to make the transition smoothly, this and all of your braking, and down shifting should be done Before entering a turn..Also, the amount of lean you see in MotoGP, will NEVER be duplicted on the street, and trying to do so, will only cause you to crash...Oh, and you can make your seat a bit more slippry, by putting some baby powder on it..

As for their toes...Don't do that...you should position your inside foot so that the balls of your foot are on the peg, and point your foot parellel with the bike, this is keep from dragging your toes as much as possible..although when you get to the point where you can lean it a fair amount, you prolly will drag your toes..as a side note, take off the peg feelers, and if you own a Honda, get some rearsets, cause the pegs are fairly low on Hondas..

I think to explain the turning process, you should read Keith Codes, twist of the wrist I and II..It tell about counter steering, and weighting your pegs, for example to start the turn, you weight the inside peg, but once that done, then you weight the outside peg, and this is purely a personal choice, but do read those books, they will help you to understand the technical aspect of it better than we could explain it, plus you can go over the material for review...

Hm, good idea - better straight from the horses mouth so as to avoid any confusion http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I've heard people say weight the outside then inside, etc...

I had read #1 a long time ago, but most of it didn't make sense to me then. I should pick up #1 and #2 for sure now. Can't believe I forgot completely about those books!

Thanks!

I just got the Twist the Wrist II for christmas... excellent book. Read the thing cover to cover the same day. Can't wait til spring to put it into practice. It was pretty freaky, actually. Got a VHS movie called Superbikes for Christmas too, with bike mounted cameras on old slabsides, and there was a portion showing Keith Code (TtW author) teaching at the Superbike School... this tape's a real dated thing, late 80s, I believe... but it was fun to watch. Too bad the thing was only 30 minutes long.

On that getting into the position thing, I read a decent blurb from a 'kneedragging thread' in the mods & howtos section. UKLee describes how to get the knee down, where the toes should be, etc... really informative. He mentions how to achieve the 'right' position. Maybe this is sorta the question you're wondering? If you haven't read it, here's the link. kneedragging thread (http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=683230&page=13&view=coll apsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

It's about halfway down the thread, and even though it's devoted to finally getting that knee down, it also talks about the correct position, a thing you can practice while on the sidestand in the garage, (Using your outside leg to support you.)

Rob

Yep, that was something I was looking for, although explained most of what I knew already.

I think the picture posted by Flesh helped more with my questions though:

http://www.jontflesh.com/Picts/mladin2.jpg

However, now I'm wondering another thing - the guy on the kawi is all tucked in and close to the bike, and the guy to his left is more upright and sticking out more. What would those 2 different positions do when taking a turn like that? Is tucking in going to make the profile of the bike & rider smaller and mean your COG is going to be lower, or would it be higher? Same for the other position - and ultimately, which would be best? (I'm sure this is all answered in Twist of the Wrist, but alas, I don't have a copy yet http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Not having a wider picture of that to look at, the one rider could be getting ready to straighten up outta the turn (you know those telephoto lenses compress the depth)... or, everybody has a slightly different style to hanging off, whatever's comfortable to them. Unclear.

Yeah, good idea to pick up the Twist the Wrist, and if you only get one at first, get the second one. Excellent read on the 'dynamics' of cornering.

Rob

The easiest way to find out about different techniuqes, is to attend a school...check with MC shops/dealers in your area to see what's available...you'll get hands on instruction...Actually, each rider has their own style,i.e., some riders keep their knees tight to the fairings, some stick their knee out further..ect., but there are things(techniuqes) that do work, and leaning a bike over really isn't that hard...Saddle time at a track is a good start..

A good idea, and something to consider when the weather gets a little better. I've got a track at Shubie' (near Halifax) where this is probably offered. Only thing is, during the winter months, I (won't speak for Nutbar in Ottawa) can only read about (and discuss) this whilst there's a good foot or more of that white powder on the ground. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/cry.gif The only time I'll be getting a knee down is when I slip on some ice hidden underneath while running the snow blower. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Rob

Haha, yeah ditto here. Not so much snow this year, but the -45deg celcius with the wind slightly deters me from getting on my bike right now http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

We've got a track somewhat close-ish here - the FAST course is held on it, but of course that thing books so fast (the course) that you have to book about 6 months in advance. This is only going to be my 2nd season, and so I want more street time before I hop on a track. So yeah, right now I'm just chatting about it, thinking about how I'll get my courage up to hang my ass off the bike and try to nibble pavement without crashing http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Come spring/summer, then I can actually try it http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

nutbar said:
Haha, yeah ditto here. Not so much snow this year, but the -45deg celcius with the wind slightly deters me from getting on my bike right now http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

We've got a track somewhat close-ish here - the FAST course is held on it, but of course that thing books so fast (the course) that you have to book about 6 months in advance. This is only going to be my 2nd season, and so I want more street time before I hop on a track. So yeah, right now I'm just chatting about it, thinking about how I'll get my courage up to hang my ass off the bike and try to nibble pavement without crashing http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif Come spring/summer, then I can actually try it http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif



I knew you guys were snow bound..my suggestion was meant for when it gets warm.. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

After 2 seasons you should be o.k....If your comfortable riding on a freeway, or hwy at 65 mph + you'll do fine, not all track day riders are fast, and as long as your not a danger to others in the beginer class/group...you'll be o.k. You should see some of the Slow riders at track days...just because the track is fast, doesn't mean you have to ride flatout, as there aren't any trohpies given out..Plus, most track day orgs. offer some type of instruction included for the price...And, it's MUCH safer to learn new things on a track as opossed to the street, trust me on this one, I've crashed 4 times on the street, although I've never crashed on a track.. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif Check ou the thread...Is ti woth it, in the Track Day forum.. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif

http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthreads/showfla...;o=&fpart=1 (http://www.gixxer.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=829874&page=0&view=collap sed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1)

About the toe and kneesliders.. i do use them both and you saw right. they do too. but if you are still finding the limits of your bike, donīt think about putting your toes into the ground, you just focus on your bike, your bodypossition and countersteering, Mr. hammer obviously knows what he is talking about! and he makes a good pointers for us all! expert as well as novice riders.

thank you hammer for good tips.
i would be counted as expert rider, but you always seem to make really good and valid pointers! thanks!!!!

gsx1127R said:
About the toe and kneesliders.. i do use them both and you saw right. they do too. but if you are still finding the limits of your bike, donīt think about putting your toes into the ground, you just focus on your bike, your bodypossition and countersteering, Mr. hammer obviously knows what he is talking about! and he makes a good pointers for us all! expert as well as novice riders.

thank you hammer for good tips.
i would be counted as expert rider, but you always seem to make really good and valid pointers! thanks!!!!



Thanks....I'm always willing to help when I can...but being old, and slow...I'm still learning new things as well... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/thumb.gif K...back to my nap.. http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/sleep.gif

I would like to say something about dragging your knee and toe sliders. Dragging through a corner is definately enjoyable. However, replacing knee sliders often can become rather expensive over time.
My suggestion is this, use the knee slider as a gauge for how far the bike is leaned over. Don't try to drive your knee into the ground throughout the corner. Personally it makes me run wide on the exit. As you approach a corner you do your braking, downshifts, and start to tip it in. When you start to drag, you're about where you and the bike should be. Let your knee lightly skip over the asphalt.
As far as toe dragging goes. To each their own. Personally don't do it but have a friend who goes through a set of toe sliders each trackday. Sometimes getting into the boot. The last time he had to have them repaired. This can get very expensive. I think I've drug my toe 5-6 times in roughly 20 trackday or raceweekends. Spooks the hell out of me but I ride with my inside foot tight to bike and on the ball.
And don't be stiff on the bike. Riding loose and relaxed will really help the bike do what you want it to do and not wear you out as quickly. Just my opinions.

Hey Hammer, I'll should be out at Streets in April for a CCS weekend. Never been on the track. Need lots of help. Maybe we can get hooked up?

Philbie said:
I would like to say something about dragging your knee and toe sliders. Dragging through a corner is definately enjoyable. However, replacing knee sliders often can become rather expensive over time.
My suggestion is this, use the knee slider as a gauge for how far the bike is leaned over. Don't try to drive your knee into the ground throughout the corner. Personally it makes me run wide on the exit. As you approach a corner you do your braking, downshifts, and start to tip it in. When you start to drag, you're about where you and the bike should be. Let your knee lightly skip over the asphalt.
As far as toe dragging goes. To each their own. Personally don't do it but have a friend who goes through a set of toe sliders each trackday. Sometimes getting into the boot. The last time he had to have them repaired. This can get very expensive. I think I've drug my toe 5-6 times in roughly 20 trackday or raceweekends. Spooks the hell out of me but I ride with my inside foot tight to bike and on the ball.
And don't be stiff on the bike. Riding loose and relaxed will really help the bike do what you want it to do and not wear you out as quickly. Just my opinions.

Hey Hammer, I'll should be out at Streets in April for a CCS weekend. Never been on the track. Need lots of help. Maybe we can get hooked up?



I'm always up for goin to a race.... http://www.gixxer.com/forums/images/graemlins/banana.gif I don't know if I can be of any help to ya though...If you need some tips on the track layout, I can give ya some links that show the Streets of Willow real good..keep in mind, the track has recently been repaved, but with the cars on there, things will prolly change by April, anyway, shoot me a PM, and I'll give ya all the info. I have.

Here's a link to some good footage of the Streets.. http://www.trackcam.com/video.htm

Thank you Hammer. I didn't realize it was just repaved/surfaced.

I like giving a bit of presure on the knee slider...makes it easier to pull the front back in if/when it tries to tuck under.
as far as how to transition from side to side, and when to start hanging off...that's a very personal thing... some like to be haning off as they enter the brake zone, others like to start hanging off just as the start countersteering.
get on the track and develope your OWN style. not everything works for everyone. (I am 6'2" and raced a GS500 of all things...MY technique was not the same as a short guy on a 93 750!)