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Crash and suspension

3K views 33 replies 11 participants last post by  Carnage 
#1 ·
Before doing a track day, I highly recommend having someone that knows what they are doing look at your suspension. Two nearly identical crashes going wide followed by adjustment and tighter lines in proof


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#2 ·
Eh. Could have also been technique, poor throttle input, letting off the brakes too soon, etc etc etc. I have probably done 20-30 track days on various bikes with bone stock suspension that wasn't touched by anybody...with no issues.
 
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#5 ·
Suspension has little to do with it.

As an example, thanks to a shitty suspension guy and me not knowing enough, I did 4 race weekends with no fork oil in one leg of my forks. I was chasing suspension problems every weekend, yet still managed to turn some of the fastest amateur lap times every weekend, didn't crash once, and won two championships. Once I got my suspension issues sorted, which unfortunately happened to be my last weekend I actually raced, I started turning expert times as an amateur.

Suspension issues can be ridden around until you get to the sharp end of the expert grip, and rarely cause a crash, unless a suspension component breaks or something.
 
#6 ·
:stupid

I landed on 3 Expert Podiums (out of 4 races) riding the 675 with 0.85 springs in it (it was sprung for somebody who weighed over 100lbs less than I did).

Suspension issues rarely, rarely, rarely ever actually result in a crash. With the exception being a catastrophic failure like a shock coming unbolted or linkage breaking or something.
 
#12 ·
I must respectfully disagree with you, Mr. Chris Broom. (Who by the way has coached me to some of my best lap times around Barber and holds hero status in my book.)
Mr. Broome, you have forgotten yourself. Yeah, you are one of the better club racers in the country and if given a top spec MotoAmerica bike, might be able to put it on the box at the pro level. BUT.... You weren't born that way. Maybe NOW you can go fast on whatever crap is thrown under you but that's only because you've developed the ability to feel the bike, the tires and the track, then ride within the limits of the equation. A newbie hasn't got all that experience. If his bike is on two different gameplans front to rear, it will probably try to kill him. The less experience a rider has, the harder it is to ride around setup issues. Bad stuff is happening down there but the rider doesn't know why, or what will happen next. So with all due respect, Coach Broome, I think you're wrong. Newbies can really benefit from a proper suspension setup, done by a tuner who knows his business.
 
#13 · (Edited)
The less experience a rider has, the harder it is to ride around setup issues. The less experience you have, the less you know what you have to ride around, or what the problem is

Bad stuff is happening down there but the rider doesn't know why, or what will happen next. Even with correct suspension setup, do you think that the new rider knows what will happen next or what is happening? Or better yet do you think the new rider knows how to adopt the correct riding technique, lines, etc to the new suspension setup? It is easier said then done.

Are you saying if I secretly tune the suspension for a new track day rider he will not crash due to him pushing over his limits?
How does he know if he has benefited from tuned suspension and that it stopped him from crashing?
Why do other new track day riders with stock suspension that has not been touched since the bike left the showroom not crash?

Camon mate. Seriously, yes suspension should be tuned, but you cannot blame crashes on hardware unless it malfunctions in terms of seizing forks or something like that.

I now deal with a lot of racers, and you have no idea how much suspension setup differes from one rider to another.
Some have suspension hard as f**k and some have a softer setup. They all do similar lap times. Who is to say now that one setup is wrong compared to the other. Suspension is adopted mainly to rider, track, track temperature and motorcycle characteristics I believe. Unless you have done 10-15 track days a year, you really do not get a chance to utalise or learn much about suspension setup.

Another great excuse new riders use is that their tires were not good enough :)
 
#15 ·
On my old FZR I was following and being followed by my track instructor and he told me the main barrier to my performance were the tires that I had and the loose front suspension on the bike. That was a 26 year old bike, but I could see if you are on the track for the first time to ride your bike with whatever setup you have been riding with and then just compensate for your weight. A big thing is point of reference. If that's all you've ridden, then upgrading the suspension is almost irrelevent. "It's all I know." I suppose there is nothing to lose by updating your suspension but it also isn't going to,just make someone faster

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#16 ·
If you're a first time track rider, you're suspension is the last thing you need to be worried about. Plenty of us here have several racing trophies without even ever touching the suspension clickers. Ride on.
 
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#17 ·
+1

I won my rookie race and an Unlimited GTO on stock suspension that was never adjusted.

Not saying that is the way to go, but for the beginner track rider, suspension isn't something that you need to worry about immediately. Pay your trackside vendor a few dollars, and have them set it to your weight, and go ride.

Worry about line and BP first.

Then worry about going faster more consistently.

Then as you begin to outride what you have, worry about upgrading/adjusting.
 
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#18 ·
Two nearly identical crashes going wide followed by adjustment and tighter lines in proof
A lot of guys hating on suspension in this thread. I have two questions:

1) To those of you who are bragging about having won races at the very start of your career without ever addressing suspension adjustment; are you still riding on whatever, or do you now buy and adjust aftermarket suspension on your own bikes?

2) From the clues given in the quote above, can anyone explain why the OP was crashing and what the tuner did to fix it?
 
#19 · (Edited)
I think you are misunderstanding.

No one is "hating" on suspension. Suspension tuning and upgrading are essential when you get faster. What a lot of us are saying is that too many new riders put emphasis on parts and tuning when the emphasis should be on their riding and analysis of the bike and what it is doing.

Chasing suspension setup will do nothing for a new track rider. Throwing the best Öhlins parts on the bike will do nothing for a new track rider. Putting slicks on the bike for a new track rider will do nothing.

What will do something is asking the new track rider "OK, how did the bike feel that session/lap?" Or "what were you working on in T3?"

What will do something is drilling the race line, and working on good BP over and over until it is second nature. Then, work on corner exit. Get off the corners faster and harder. Then work on corner entry. Brake smoother and later. Begin to trailbrake a bit to get a feel for it.

Once the new rider has done those things, over and over and over, eventually the stock setup will start to show its flaws, and then the rider (who won't be a new track rider at that point) can start chasing suspension setup with the components of their choice.
 
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#20 ·
For the record, I've been coaching for a long, long time. I don't want to start comparing life experience and get int a "who has the bigger ____" contest. But I do know what I'm talking about and I have a valid point to make.

So again I ask:

2) From the clues given in the quote above, can anyone explain why the OP was crashing and what the tuner did to fix it?
 
#21 ·
For the record, I've been coaching for a long, long time. I don't want to start comparing life experience and get int a "who has the bigger ____" contest. But I do know what I'm talking about and I have a valid point to make.
Huh? Where is this coming from? No one is comparing anything. If you have a valid point, make it.

Do you go telling your brand new students that they need full suspension upgrades? Do you have them sit with a suspension tuner and have them explain what the bike is doing so they can have it tweaked for them? No, I doubt it, because that would only confuse them and overwhelm them more.

So again I ask:

2) From the clues given in the quote above, can anyone explain why the OP was crashing and what the tuner did to fix it?
In my opinion, there isn't enough information given to make an accurate guess as to what happened, not nearly enough details given.
 
#22 ·
Yes, no one here was hating on the whole suspension thing. I think the overall message is that for the new track guy there is no need to be concerned with it. You're not going to be fast enough anyway. Not because you're a bad rider, BUT BECAUSE YOU ARE NEW.

Once you get faster (usually when you start racing) there does become a point where you feel like you're completely overwhelming your stock suspension. The bike starts talking to you in ways you've never imagined. It's such a sweet spot to be in and for you track guys reading, you'll know that spot once you get there if you haven't already.
 
#24 ·
You are entitled to your opinion obviously, but it seems you are only seeing it from one side.

I, along with most of the others in here (the racers really), feel you are thinking too much about equipment, and not enough about the rider.

But, there is more than one way to skin a cat, so whatever works for you to make better riders, go for it.

:thumbup
 
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#25 ·
Ant, we probably should leave this alone but since it's Friday afternoon and I have nothing to do we'll entertain.

Damn...we've got at least 5 or 6 racers/ex racers in here saying the same thing and we still can't convince you k3racer guy that sometimes, you just need to ride the fucking bike.

Of course if your preload, compression, and rebound are that far out of wack, you need to make an adjustment. No one is arguing that.

As we have said before, for the beginner track guy they just need to focus on their riding. It is highly unlikely that the beginner shows up with his suspension clickers out of wack. Normally it's going to be a stock setup.

I actually was that poor kid that got pull aside at tech. Not because of any suspension woes, but silly shit like an exhaust hanger I made myself from the hardware store. :lol

True story.

All jokes aside, I don't want any new trackday goers worrying about this. I've told the story a few times here about me bitching to my racing mentor (ex AMA guy) in the pits before a race about my suspension that at the time I thought couldn't keep up with me. Honestly it couldn't.

He grinned at me, said "shut the fuck up and just ride the bike kid."

I won the race that day.
 
#27 ·
:ch

Your fine man. We just don't want to send the message that everything has to be perfect for your trackday/race. Remember there are soon to be track goers reading this. There are also plenty of examples around GDC of folks getting it done with the bare minimum. I might be one of the biggest examples. Making it to the track for me was always an episode. You have no idea.

These assholes at GDC forgot to tell me that you're not supposed to go racing if you don't have any money. :lol

Me and the tech guys got real close over the weekends. Trust me. :lol


BTW...send me an Ohlins shock when you get a chance and if you can some R/T forks. :cheers
 
#29 ·
Yeah, racing is a damn disease. Lately I do it on a vintage slingshot in AHRMA. I was as bad as anyone twenty years ago, riding absolute shitboxes when I started racing. Back then there were no track days. You got your license and jumped in the deep end. No suspension guys, either. Anybody who knew anything was hiding it. When I finally had a pro work on my suspension for the first time, (at least three partial seasons of racing by then) I went from fifth to first, just like that. Amateur, yes, but it felt really good!
 
#31 ·
We need a trackday/racers story thread. I've got a couple of good ones about Jennings GP.

And I know the rest of you guys have plenty of stories to tell. No way to go to the track and not come back without a story. That's impossible. :D
 
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