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K5 1000 r/r

3K views 39 replies 5 participants last post by  RichardK5 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi fellows,

Well, I thought I cracked the bad and eventually no starting problem I had last week. My stator connector to the R/R white plug had melted. Chopped that and bullet crimped. My starters brushes were very worn I had them replaced and eventually after checking the starter relay, switches etc I narrowed it down to a bad joint on the switched 12V cable from starter relay to the starter.

She ran sweetly for a week until last night. Hopped on the bike and the starter turned over so slowly she wouldn't start.

I forgot too add last week I changed my R/R because it wasn't behaving as per the workshop manual. The voltage across the battery was 14V at idle and at 5000rpm it measured 13.5V.
Not in spec so I replaced it with one from I believe a Honda 750. Parts are pretty much impossible to get here for the gixxers.

I've spent the last few hours swapping back to the original R/R. Double checking and cleaning earths and the cables from the starter solenoid. Also charged the battery.

OK, it burst into life again. I've taken her up to temp and stop started about 2 dozen times. No problems.
I'm still not convinced it's fixed and the problem wont repeat itself.

The R/R is still 14V across the battery at idle and reduces to 13.5V at 5000rpm! The unit gets very hot to touch.

Has anybody experienced this? The workshop manual diode and continuity checks for the R/R are all in spec.

Gentlemen?
 
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#2 ·
The R/R is still 14V across the battery at idle and reduces to 13.5V at 5000rpm! The unit gets very hot to touch.
That the R/R gets hot isn't surprising or abnormal, but I'm not so sure about the voltage drop you describe. Well, according to the manual, your charging voltage is out of spec at 5000rpm so something's wrong, but I'm not so sure what. I won't bore you with the reasoning, but I have a suspicion that this sort of behavior, that is, dropping voltage when revving in idle, might indicate a bad connection between the stator and the R/R specifically. Note here that, due to the generally large currents going through that connection, very small resistances are sufficient to drop enough voltage to prevent charging. Do the crimped connectors get hot?
 
#3 ·
Hi dpapavas
Thank you for your reply.
Yes, I've just re-crimped the stator R/R connections today. I have good bullet crimps and the correct crimping tool. I understand what a bad connection can do as regard to volt drops across a bad connection. V = I x R and all that stuff.

The connections at the Stator/RR don't get hot. That's three times I've re-crimped them now since last week. Next step is perhaps to solder the leads at the wire/crimp but I'm pretty certain this isn't the issue. Every time I've crimped them I've had the same result!

The other regulator I tried acted how it should. About 13V at idle and 13.5V at 5000rpm. And I crimped that in the same way
But the starting still became sluggish after one whole week.

The battery is fairly new. Again it's not a dealer battery but one from a local store here.

A bad connection sounds likely I've just been thrown a bit by reading elsewhere that a lot of Suzuki bike owners report their R/R acting in a similar manner to mine.

Why I'm asking fellow K5 owners if they have the same issue with the R/R.

Please try to help fellows as the local garages are pretty hopeless as far as a gixxer is concerned.



Thanks.
 
#4 ·
Maybe the bullet connectors themselves are unsuitable? If they're not entirely snug, it might be that only a small part of the surface area is making actual contact (because the male part is sitting lopsided inside the female part). Try taking a voltage reading against the same grounding point from both sides of the connector and see if you find a significant voltage drop. Probe as far away from the center of the connector to either side, as you can.

By the way, as you open the throttle and engine speed rises, does the voltage on the battery poles drop rapidly until a certain engine speed (say 3-4k rpm) and then not so much as you rev the engine higher?
 
#5 ·
Hi,

Unsuitable connectors is possible. The standard of electrical components is woeful here.

But I'm sure I used spade connectors last week with same results!
I will check your suggestions and report back.

Took Her 100km tonight. Stopping at various locations and started EVERY time. Hmm
 
#7 ·
The replacement R/R was brand new. I did test it and of course the stator ac voltages. That was in spec.

At first the replacement R/R behaved close to how it should. 13V at idle rising to 13.5V at 5000rpm. The shop I bought it from said it should be around 14V at 5000rpm. Therefore it appears that 0.5V was being shunted elsewhere.

Interestingly after I got it started the other day the measured voltage across the battery was down to 13.25V at 5000rpm from the swapped R/R. Possibly adding to the bad joint getting progressively worse theory!

The crimps I'm using are pretty tight when pushed together. These were recommended by the fellow who sold me the the regulator, to make the connection. In fact so tight some are nearly impossible to pull apart.

Here is the swapped R/R now back off the bike.

I'm going out later to make detailed voltage checks at stator/R/R joins and will upload photos of the voltages across the battery at various engine RPM.
 

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#8 ·
My voltage checks were interrupted by a thunderstorm across the bay here but here's the battery voltage vs engine RPM readings.

1150RPM Idle = 14.06V
2000RPM = 13.70V
3000RPM = 13.60V
4000RPM = 13.55V
5000RPM = 13.52V

Sorry, 13.52V photo missing.

What I did notice when I touched the stator/R/R crimped connections, they are hot. Before I had them wrapped in insulated tape and couldn't feel the heat. I reckon the reason the bullet connectors are near impossible to pull apart is they might be melting, fusing together under the insulation.

When the rain clears I'll remove the R/R and look at replacing these connectors with quality spade connectors I'll solder after crimping.

I'm hopeful this might solve this but the original Suzuki plug melted. If they couldn't get it right, what chance me?
 

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#10 ·
My voltage checks were interrupted by a thunderstorm across the bay here but here's the battery voltage vs engine RPM readings.

1150RPM Idle = 14.06V
2000RPM = 13.70V
3000RPM = 13.60V
4000RPM = 13.55V
5000RPM = 13.52V

[...]

What I did notice when I touched the stator/R/R crimped connections, they are hot.
Both the voltage readings and the fact that the connections get hot seem to agree with my suspicion. Since the stator and R/R itself are ok, the voltage drop is likely due to increased current through a resistive connection. That current draw can either be before or after the R/R. The current drawn past the R/R depends on the load placed on it by the bike's electrics and, as far as I can see, the only reason the load should increase when engine speed increases in neutral, is due to the greater rate of spark events. This draw should be linear in engine speed and should continue to increase (along with the voltage drop) until the limiter.

On the other hand, current before the R/R depends on the generator field (which is constant, since this is a permanent magnet generator) and the stator angular speed (hence engine speed), but here the generator saturates at some point, so after a certain engine speed, the voltage drop should stop increasing. This looks like what you're getting.

I'm not a trained electrical engineer, so take these theories with a pinch of salt. I'm very curious about other explanations for this phenomenon.

I'm hopeful this might solve this but the original Suzuki plug melted. If they couldn't get it right, what chance me?
Well, the OEM plug likely lasted for 10 years or so and you have no idea why/how it failed, so saying they "didn't get it right" is a bit unfair. You should be able to make a good connection that'll last. If you're going to use solder, remember that you want it to permeate the joined wire ends, so as to maximize the contact area. For instance, twisting wires together and applying solder on top is not good practice, as only the periphery of the wires makes contact through the solder and the rest just contacts where the strands happen to cross each other as they're held in place by the solder jacket.

The proper way to solder, is to apply solder to both wire ends, spades etc, heating the wires/spades themselves in order to let the solder permeate the wire or distribute itself and properly adhere on the spade (a.k.a tinning the to-be-joined ends). The ends can then be put together and reheated to allow the solder to join them.
 
#9 ·
Update.

Put new spade crimps on the Stator/R/R join and it's making a better electrical connection as regard to being hot to touch but the readings across the battery are identical.

The bike's still starting but I full well expect it not to in the near future. Can hear it's turning over just a little bit slower.
 
#12 ·
Hi Richard,,,check out eastern beaver he is in Japan...Great products that you need...Order some heavy duty wiring,connections...Get everything going direct to your battery...Speaking of battery ditch what you have order the Shorai...Will solve all your problems...And if you have already done so,I'm late again...
 
#13 ·
In the above vein here's what someone else here did. Seems a bit excessive but it's better than breaking down.

You might try measuring the voltage drop across the contacts under the highest load condition that you can create (headlights on, etc.). Haven't looked into this is any detail but my sense is that it shouldn't be more than around .01 V.

P.S. As I recall, the OEM R/R is a shunt type so the external load may not matter. That is, the current from the stator to the R/R is basically independent of load and primarily determined by RPM. I think that kwaka10r knows more about such things.
 
#14 · (Edited)
Hi BillV and everybody. Thanks for your replies.

So, this is what I know so far.

1. Starter motor brushes were in a terrible way.
2. The switched 12V lead from the starter relay to the starter had a bad join in it.
3. The Stator/R/R plug was fried.

When I replaced the battery I wasn't aware of this and ran a new battery for about 1 Month until the bad starts occurred!

After refurbishing the starter (hope they did a good job) and fixing the Stator/R/R connection and also fixing and eventually replacing the !2V - starter lead the bike ran sweetly for one week. And I put another R/R in.

After the bad and no start was repeated I swapped back to the OEM R/R and for two days it started albeit the weird voltage readings across the battery.

Last night after taking it for a run I stopped at a 7/11 left the bike for 5 minutes and lo and behold it wouldn't turn over:crying:
Waited no more than 10 seconds turned on ignition again and it spun up freely and started.:frown2:

Started again this morning also.

What I'm thinking of doing next is.

1. Measuring the current from the battery when the ignition is switched on. Repeat this a few times to see if there's any noticeable increase in demand at various ignition on times.

2. Back-probing the R/R +V connector to the battery to check for any volt drop in excess of 0.2V according to the fault finding flow chart I posted a link to.

3. Also check that the R/R connectors ground is truly grounded. Might run a lead to battery ground and see how the regulator output behaves.

4. As part of my checks I'll look at the possible resistance points (depending on check 2)
and check the contacts on the 30A starter relay fuse. Fuse box contacts on the 15A fan fuse and 10A fuel fuse. Clean the ignition switch connector. Also clean the fan relay connector.

As far as I can see that about covers potential points which if bad could cause volt drops!

Another terrible day here. Thunder, lightning torrential rain. Going to be tomorrow before I get a chance to look at this.

If I get no joy from the above I'll order a R/R from the UK and try and get a battery with the spec the workshop manual states.

BillV from what I can recall a shunt regulator keeps the output voltage constant by shunting excess current demand to ground using a resistor. And probably a fixed voltage zeiner diode.
The voltage out of the R/R varies depending on load.

Of course if the voltage variation is in spec then the R/R is good.
Sorry to babble on. I forget more than I learned...Lol not as sharp as I used to be. Too many beers and bars around here to stay sane!


Will put my thinking cap on tomorrow and have another look. Cheers. Thanks for you're valued advice.
 
#17 ·
I'm unfamiliar with J.T.M. batteries. The OEM battery was a Furukawa FT12A-BS (made in Japan). The FT9X-BS is a smaller/lower capacity battery that was used to reduce weight before the lithium batteries came out. Furukawa's are hard to come by in the US.

"Last night after taking it for a run I stopped at a 7/11 left the bike for 5 minutes and lo and behold it wouldn't turn over Waited no more than 10 seconds turned on ignition again and it spun up freely and started."
That sounds more like an intermittent problem with the starter switch. It's relatively exposed because of its location and has been known to act up. It can be disassembled to check/clean the contacts.
 
#18 ·
Hi BillV maybe I should clarify that it tried to turn over but very slowly then went dead.

I've already had the starter switch apart and checked continuity when the switch pushed in but at this moment in time I'm scratching for answers I'll look at it again.

The manual calls for a 12V 36.0 kC (10 AH) 10H battery. Unfortunately the one I have is the best available around here.
Found an interesting thread on the forum.
http://www.gixxer.com/forums/80-06-07-gsx-r600-750/242182-correct-battery.html

Anybody that has a GSXR 1000 K5 could you please confirm that the voltages across the battery from idle to 5000RPM I'm measuring are not correct.

Head scratching. Will make a checklist for tomorrow and run through these ideas, suggestions. Take photos and upload.

Love this bike. Why I'm spending so much time on Her. It drives flawlessly apart from the engine breaking herky jerky at low rpm. Going up through the gears there are no stutters or backfire on deceleration. A true powerhouse of a machine.

You're right it acts like an intermittent fault but where the heck is the fault:hammer:grin2:
 
#19 ·
I'm also surprised that the starter brushes were worn out. It would be different if you had 50,000+ miles. But you're at a third of that. At the moment I don't understand that.

There isn't that much to the starter circuit. The cables are the normal source of problems but you seem to have already gone through them. About the only thing that remains is the starter solenoid. It's a fairly common part that is still used on 1000's and was used on 600/750 through 2009. So you might be able to find one cheap. I thought that they were fairly bulletproof.
 
#20 ·
Hi, good morning BillV.

The starter brushes well two of them looked OK but two of them had about 3mm left on them. The starter was full of gunk.

The mileage. The odometer shows 23,800km now. Not miles. Around 14,875 miles!
I doubt whether this mileage is genuine I really do. I have no history on the bike at all apart from the 'green book' that's just the official owners local Thai proof of ownership that has the engine serial number and owner name number plate on it.

I bought the bike for about one third of the local estimated value. Therefore I wasn't under any illusions it was a perfect machine.

I trusted a local bike shop that refurbishes Harleys (swaps parts from various old bikes then re-sells them for $$$) to refurbish the starter motor. This being Thailand though is like trusting a Tiger to babysit your Family. In most occasions they will rip you off. But I'm hoping this is not the case. I need to open the starter to check that the brushes were replaced.

A serious problem here is leaving your bike in garages (not any real garages here. Just a shop front that doubles as one) they will steal good parts from bikes and replace with bad parts. A regular occurrence.

Even if I have a tyre replaced I sit and wait. Never let the bike out of my sight. You have to.

The starter solenoid you mean the starter relay again not available here. A shop in Bangkok called Red Baron can buy them direct from China. Takes one Month they charge fortunes and it's low grade copy parts from China. Think they quoted me about $700 for a copy GSXR 1000 R/R. Why I bought another one and tried that.

The starter relay I think is good. It passes the checks and clicks away even when the battery completely goes completely dead. Constantly switches the +12V out to the starter motor.

Ahh... rains off the Sun's out I've a few things to do then out at the bike. I have the old Battery freshly charged for doing the voltage checks. I'll do these when the bike's cold and after it reaches full running temp.
 
#21 ·
I ran a few voltage checks today. Here's the results.

Battery voltage ignition off = 13.12V
Battery voltage ignition on = 12.59V
Battery cranking voltage = 9.86V

Next I checked for volt drops from the +V R/R output to battery +12V at idle the voltage was 0.056V engine hot, idling.
The flow chart suggests > 0.2V is a fault. Therefore 56mV is well in spec.

Next I checked for volt drop from -V R/R output to battery -V and the volt drop was 0.21V - 0.19V engine hot, idling.
The flow chart suggests >0.2V is a fault. 210mV just over the maximum.

That was as as far as I got today.

Question. Does the R/R casing and bolt/nut act as a ground for the unit?

Tomorrow I plan to connect a lead from the -V battery directly to the -V R/R output and see if this reduces the volt drop on the ground side.

The battery readings at idle through the rpm range same as before.

I experienced one bad start today. Same again left for 10 seconds and she cranked over and started.

Also cleaned the starter relay 30A fuse lugs and insert with fine wet and dry then used contact cleaner. Repeated the same with the fan relay.
 
#22 ·
Your battery seems to be a bit worn, but more or less ok. The voltage drop you've measured doesn't account for two things:
  • There should normally be about 14.5V at the output of the R/R and even with 0.2V of drop, you should be seeing more than 14V at the battery, unless the R/R can't regulate (either due to failure or insufficient input voltage) or voltage is dropped elsewhere.
  • Your battery voltage drops as engine speed rises. Have you checked whether the voltage drop you measured rises with engine speed as well? If not, although it should be addressed, it doesn't account for your problem, at least not fully.
 
#23 ·
Hi dpapavas
I completely agree with you regarding the voltage drops. 0.2V doesn't account for the 'inverted' way the regulator or something is causing it to act.

Well, I checked the volt drop from the positive R/R side to the +V battery. That didn't increase with RPM. But I was interrupted when checking the R/R -V to -V battery. Just looked at my checklist that part isn't filled in. I'll do this in the morning just to make sure. I'm hoping the volt drop does increase it could end this little nightmare:smile:

Just a thought, if tomorrows check comes up blank, could the injectors, or plug coils be causing the voltage to drop at higher RPM? But surely this is where the R/R should do it's job and maintain the output!

I'm going to re-crimp the other R/R tomorrow and try it in again. Just connect it up and take voltages if all else fails. Back of my mind I'm thinking faulty regulator and maybe an under spec battery I put in it.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Hi,

Not quite following you there dpapavas. Both R/R -v are commoned up to various grounds around the bike.

When I had the tank off the other day I noticed there's a single black/white wire on a connector coming off the engine case earth and it looked pretty grubby. I'm suspecting this might be the point of high resistance, causing the bad ground. Will look when I'm in there again.

The connections are all good at the stator/RR. Why am I sure well I've re-crimped them three times now. Checked volt drops at the crimps. Albeit got caught out with local crappy cheap bullet connectors. I know how to solder and use crimps I've spent the last 30 years crimping, soldering, installing electronic, electrical systems from refrigeration units to down hole oil surveying tools.:smile: Never had anything go down because of my connections but hey, there's a first for everything.

Sure, a bad ground and as the flow chart suggests on the bottom of page one

Fault Finding Guide - Motorcycle Electrical Fault Finding Chart - ElectroSport

"best solution fix the R/R ground straight up to the -V battery with an extra lead."

That's a fix for me at this moment in time.

I'm going to try and source a battery with the correct spec for the bike.

I have a Xmas shopping list for Her that's growing and growing.:laugh:

Looking at the battery spec for theK5 bikes it's 10AH and 175 CCA. The last battery I had in was only 8AH and 135 CCA. The current Thai copy will be way lower than that. Need to source a good battery I reckon to have a proper fully functioning charging system.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Yes, thanks. I just checked the other R/R the case is not grounded. Think I've got it figured now but will need a minimum 10AH 175 CCA battery to have a very good reliable starting bike.

I'll be on the phone to Bangkok tomorrow. Isn't going to be cheap and probably a copy.
One of the downsides living here. Even the big department malls as you fellows call them are full of copies. Televisions, phones, clothes, medicines etc. Unfortunately the local bike parts are nearly all copies AFAIK.

Probably parts are the real deal in Bangkok official bike dealers but fortunes compared to the US or UK. And they don't hold stock. They ship in from customer request. I waited 2 Months for a PXC 150 tail light holder. Dear oh dear.
 
#36 ·
Out and about today we went into Town to the biggest parts stockist who import their goods in. First the girl tried to sell me a Forza battery for 3500 Baht.
Not suitable. I asked to speak to the head mechanic in their service shop. Told Him the bike and battery spec He walked into the store room and had them on the shelf.

2700 Baht. Around $77 from Japan I believe is the OEM battery. It's been filled and on charge at the moment.

Let's see if I have a proper charging system on the bike now?
 

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#39 ·
BillV it completely took me by surprise too!

Trust me, parts are darn hard to get here. It's funny how these big service places work over here. You walk in and the girl at reception who really knows nothing, looks up a book or looks at your battery and sexily swaggers out to the 'dealer' stock room. Thought I'd add that bit cause she was pretty.

Anyhow, She produces a Forza battery. Smiles and tries to get me to buy it. No use.

Now, the head mechanic runs His own little business from inside the dealers. He has His own little business going as well. And this boy knows his stuff. He's the only one. Bought from Him before and He knows Suzukis.

It's crazy how it works here. Off topic but just to give you an idea how the most unusual places can be rented. Near high season the well known youtube music Police scam hits the bars. The owners are arrested for putting youtube on the television and taken to the local Police station. The local Police 'rent' part of the station to the fake Police. And supply them uniforms...Lol 100% true.

Hope my battery is genuine. Pretty sure it is. And yes, a good price.
 
#38 ·
@RichardK5 @BillV

Wow, a lot to read here. I was trying to avoid it.

Richard, 13.5V is really marginal for charging the battery. It won't be getting full charge at that voltage. The service manual states 14.0V - 15.5V. Most bikes see around 14.4V.

You may have high resistance in the wiring from the rec/reg to the battery. How you can check this is jumper the +ve and -ve directly from the rec/reg to the battery. If the charging voltage goes up significantly you know you have high resistance in the wiring and/or connections between the re/reg and battery.

If you have excessive load on the electrical system, the rec/reg will not be shunting any excess power, it will all be delivered to the load with a shortfall which may cause your system voltage to drop.

You can determine this easily by disconnecting high load items such as headlights and other high drain accessories. Bear in mind that if you have a lot of losses over the wiring then the reduced load will also cause the voltage to increase (lower IxR drop). The first test will help you determine that.

The temperature of the rec/reg can't be used as an indicator as it generates heat even if all the power is delivered to the load due to the rectifier diodes forward conducting state voltage.

If you determine that the rec/reg is dropping voltage with rpm and no electrical load, then it sounds like it's a faulty rec/reg or that one is not suitable. I can't find data for the SH583D-13.

Not sure if you have used another type.

Make sure your stator is 65V AC no load at 5k rpm on all three phases. So measure between A-B, B-C and C-A. If one phase is out it will behave similar to what you are experiencing.

Sorry didn't have time to read all you posted. So forgive me if I have addressed something you have already checked.
 
#40 ·
Hi kwaka10r

Thanks for that. Got the problem down to a resistive bad ground from the R/R output or probably a ground near the engine casing earth. The voltage was being shunted as a volt drop there.

I spliced in a heavy wire from the R/R -V output to Battery ground and the charging system acted normally.

But the battery in it was a cheap local underspec copy.

Put a dealer battery in after filling and charging. Not taking anything for granted yet I'll keep checking the voltages across the battery to make sure it's charging.

The stator checked out perfect. 65V ac at 5000rpm across the three phases with no load.

I know it's a big read on the thread. Had a few hiccups on the way to trying to find the fault. Thanks to everybody who helped. What a gem this forum is.
It 'appears' to be OK no
 
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