Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit... - Page 2 - Suzuki GSX-R Motorcycle Forums Gixxer.com
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post #21 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-06-2016, 05:06 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

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still have my 1971 TVR Vixen. every time I drive it / it causes wrecks.
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post #22 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 06:55 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

It would be interesting to see the percentage of "New Rider" deaths that have occurred on different displacement bikes, that would probably tell a lot, but that data would be extremely hard to gather.
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post #23 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 08:23 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

One can draw some conclusions from the (outdated, but likely still relevant) HURT report. For instance in section 11.9, one can see, that experience, both total and (especially) on the current motorcycle is a very significant factor in accidents. If we take "inexperienced" to mean "less than two years of riding experience", then "inexperienced" riders make up for slightly more than 42% of total cases. If we assume that someone with less than two years experience on his/her current machine is also "inexperienced" (which presumably includes new riders with experience on only one machine), then the representation of "inexperienced" riders in accidents rises to more than 86%! (Edit: The numbers quoted here, although accurate, are misleading. See my next post for clarifications.)

I suppose that new riders, with little experience both on their current machine and in general, would score even higher than 86%. So new riders are significantly overrepresented in accidents involing street motorcycles, irrespective of the motorcycle displacement and orientation (race, touring, commute, etc.)

(An interesting side-note here is that accidents seem to be less likely to happen for someone with 7-12 months of experience compared to the first 6 months, and the second year. I suppose the latter half of the first year or riding corresponds to the "Hey, I really got the hang of this; I'm invincible!" stage of riding.)

I couldn't find anything in the report combining both experience and displacement (there's no special treatment of sportsbikes in the report; all street-going motorcycles are lumped together). One can see though, in section 6.1 and the tables contained therein that:

Quote:
the large motorcycles (750~ and above) represent approximately one-third of all the accidents but are involved in approximately one-half of these fatal accidents.
This can be taken to mean, that crashes on large-displacement motorcycles are more likely to be more violent (which in this case means terminal).

So combining these two conclusions (which is statistically wrong, but can't be helped without access to the original data and a lot of work), one might say that rookies are way more likely to crash anyway and if they crash on a big motorcycle, they're quite a bit more likely to die (or presumably sustain serious injuries). This is more or less what most people here are saying, but I have a feeling that my backing their case with data, isn't going to be of much help...

Last edited by dpapavas; 01-07-2016 at 10:31 AM.
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post #24 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 09:12 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

Is that sportbike data, cruiser data or does it encompass all riders?
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post #25 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 10:29 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

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Is that sportbike data, cruiser data or does it encompass all riders?
The data regarding the significance of rider experience in accidents, considers the experience with "street bikes" and "dirt bikes". In the first case, many stages of the first four years of riding are considered separately, but for dirt bikes only the presence or absence of experience is considered.

As I said, all street-going motocycles are lumped together as "street bikes" but table 6.1.4 on page 72 lists the composition of types in the sample data, where though still no distinction is made between race replicas, sportsbikes, nakeds etc. Most of the motorcycles in the sample (about 70%) are "Street OEM" (meaning not dirtbikes, choppers, cafe-racers, etc.)

My argument regarding the representation of inexperienced riders in accidents (reaching up to 86% or more) is a bit deceptive though. One has to factor in the relative density of experienced and inexperienced riders in the streets that make up the accident sites. The report did that of course, but I was careless enough not to give it proper consideration.

Looking at table 11.9.1 on page 391, from which I've been quoting, one can see that inexperienced riders (see "Exposure Data"), make up the largest part of the riders that are on the street at any one time, so it's reasonable to expect them to be overrepresented in accidents too. Still one can see that inexperienced riders have more accidents than what would be expected by their numbers alone, while experienced riders (with more than 4 years riding experience) tend to have less accidents than one would expect by their numbers. To quote the report:

Quote:
The conclusions are concise. Inexperience is excessively associated with accident involvement: and inexperience is best measured by the subject motorcycle. High levels of experience are underrepresented in accidents, but how is that considerable experience obtained without exposure to accidents? In these data shown, experience levels between seven months and four years does not clearly distinguish that experience as beneficial. Only when the experience is much greater than four years is there a significant benefit demonstrated.
Also one should keep in mind that the report was based on research carried out in 1975-1980, around specific locations (Los Angeles) and probably only included reported accidents.
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post #26 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 10:46 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

Good info in that report. Just started reading it. Something to consider also, bikes have only gotten faster, whether that just means down low grunt, or high end speed. One wrong move on current machines vs. the ones from the 70's and 80's could mean two very different things. I'd be curious to see this report redone today.

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post #27 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-08-2016, 10:03 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

Some stuff from the UK:

UK motor bike accident statistics for types of motorcycle accident age ranges

"Larger-engine machines are increasingly being involved in accidents which peak at summer weekends when recreational use is at its highest. This is perhaps not surprising when one considers that machines over 500cc have trebled in number over the last 15 years and now account for over half the motorcycles on the UKs roads.

Elliot et al (2003) showed that almost two-thirds of the riders killed on non-built-up roads were aged over 30 and were riding bikes with an engine capacity greater than 500cc.
"
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post #28 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-08-2016, 01:42 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

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Originally Posted by nismos14 View Post
Good info in that report. Just started reading it. Something to consider also, bikes have only gotten faster, weather that just means down low grunt, or high end speed. One wrong move on current machines vs. the ones from the 70's and 80's could mean two very different things. I'd be curious to see this report redone today.
Good point. I learned on a CRB900RR in 1995. Rode that bike all summer. Didn't touch a bike until I bought my 600 in 2005. Granted that's a long time, but I'd swear that the 600 was a measure above that 900 in all respects.
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post #29 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-08-2016, 04:18 PM
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Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

Training, training and more training. Simple.

That people will think nothing of throwing continuous wads of cash on bike performance add-on's and never see the real value in upgrading themselves...

You get what you pay for.
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Last edited by DamianW; 01-08-2016 at 04:23 PM.
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post #30 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-08-2016, 05:55 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

I've read through a lot of this thread.
Respectively I am a new rider. I ride with a lot of long time and very good riders. I've only ridden for a shy under 2.5 years. First bike was a 2003 GSXR 600. the day I first got it running, threw a battery in it and took it around the block. I wasnt 100 from my drive way and my first thought (having ridden dirt 20 years ago) was this sure aint no dirt bike. My first few rides were always with a respected rider. I did what I was told and listened to what was said. I listened to everything tried everything told and took and used what I felt worked for me. I have found 300-600cc to be the range for a first rider. the smaller bikes under 300 dont give you the power respect, and dont have the power either to make you respect it. I have known a few to buy some 250, and get to school and work which is a great idea. BUT then they get out there and think they have power at highway speed. go to pass and get into trouble. Which has multiple issues in itself.

Our group now has some new riders both to us and to a bike. Some are thinking Im an experienced rider and am "nuts" I ride well within my ability, and is shown when out top 2 riders leave me hanging, and are eventually seen at road side waiting for me. They know I will eventually catch up cause Im not going to try and "keep up" depsite I get razzed about being in the back. I dont let that get to my ego. which also seems to be a problem with some. We have one new rider who was braggin how dad bought him some big yamaha 750 cruise when he was 15, but he sold it. blah blah he'd be leading the pack. Well first ride out, even I had to stop and wait for him. Well one day coming home there is one corner the lead in is straight with a rise up then to a hard 90 right where the road cambers up a bit. So as your cornering (speed limit 50kms) the road kinda drops away from you. i've got that dialed in now. well I come through that corner and take a glance in the mirror to see him "keeping up". well good thing there were no parked cars on the right cause he was off the road in the gravel. It was close but he didnt go down. told him again when we go to his place... dont keep up. Most of the advice we give he takes, doesnt really use it, but hopefully I dont have to see him go down let alone "wreck".

we have ridden with a few that after one ride none of us want to ride with that person again cause of their bad habits and actions so we just lose their number. And we dont ride in large groups usually try to keep it about 4-6 of us. if there is more its segmented out with group leaders and you ride in your group. then if something happens is easier to react. such as the initial story of the group being told someone was missing. If Im riding with 2 new members and I go through the corners come out and only see one, Im probably turning around to check.

Dont put weak riders to the back either. I suck it up and generally I ride in the back to eyeball new riders to pinpoint their techniques and flaws, offer suggestions about riding. The odd time I get in front have fun through a few corners, sandbag it and wait for them to catch up, if not im going back to check.

We have a new rider first street bike is a 98 ZX9R. He was like why are all you guys on 600's? we were like why are you on a 1000. The bikes are shorter lighter and I can keep up on the 1000 if I have my game face on easier. our long time 1000 riders are jealous as hell cause "our ass isn't even out of the seat". im constantly telling out one rider, stop shifting so much, we all run this road in generally 1 gear. You have 16000rpm to use. use it. Every time you shift its a chance of a mishap, or as some have said, catch the wrong gear.

But anyways slow day at work and now im rambling.
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post #31 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-08-2016, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

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Originally Posted by GunMetal81 View Post
I've read through a lot of this thread.
Respectively I am a new rider. I ride with a lot of long time and very good riders. I've only ridden for a shy under 2.5 years. First bike was a 2003 GSXR 600. the day I first got it running, threw a battery in it and took it around the block. I wasnt 100 from my drive way and my first thought (having ridden dirt 20 years ago) was this sure aint no dirt bike. My first few rides were always with a respected rider. I did what I was told and listened to what was said. I listened to everything tried everything told and took and used what I felt worked for me. I have found 300-600cc to be the range for a first rider. the smaller bikes under 300 dont give you the power respect, and dont have the power either to make you respect it. I have known a few to buy some 250, and get to school and work which is a great idea. BUT then they get out there and think they have power at highway speed. go to pass and get into trouble. Which has multiple issues in itself.

Our group now has some new riders both to us and to a bike. Some are thinking Im an experienced rider and am "nuts" I ride well within my ability, and is shown when out top 2 riders leave me hanging, and are eventually seen at road side waiting for me. They know I will eventually catch up cause Im not going to try and "keep up" depsite I get razzed about being in the back. I dont let that get to my ego. which also seems to be a problem with some. We have one new rider who was braggin how dad bought him some big yamaha 750 cruise when he was 15, but he sold it. blah blah he'd be leading the pack. Well first ride out, even I had to stop and wait for him. Well one day coming home there is one corner the lead in is straight with a rise up then to a hard 90 right where the road cambers up a bit. So as your cornering (speed limit 50kms) the road kinda drops away from you. i've got that dialed in now. well I come through that corner and take a glance in the mirror to see him "keeping up". well good thing there were no parked cars on the right cause he was off the road in the gravel. It was close but he didnt go down. told him again when we go to his place... dont keep up. Most of the advice we give he takes, doesnt really use it, but hopefully I dont have to see him go down let alone "wreck".

we have ridden with a few that after one ride none of us want to ride with that person again cause of their bad habits and actions so we just lose their number. And we dont ride in large groups usually try to keep it about 4-6 of us. if there is more its segmented out with group leaders and you ride in your group. then if something happens is easier to react. such as the initial story of the group being told someone was missing. If Im riding with 2 new members and I go through the corners come out and only see one, Im probably turning around to check.

Dont put weak riders to the back either. I suck it up and generally I ride in the back to eyeball new riders to pinpoint their techniques and flaws, offer suggestions about riding. The odd time I get in front have fun through a few corners, sandbag it and wait for them to catch up, if not im going back to check.

We have a new rider first street bike is a 98 ZX9R. He was like why are all you guys on 600's? we were like why are you on a 1000. The bikes are shorter lighter and I can keep up on the 1000 if I have my game face on easier. our long time 1000 riders are jealous as hell cause "our ass isn't even out of the seat". im constantly telling out one rider, stop shifting so much, we all run this road in generally 1 gear. You have 16000rpm to use. use it. Every time you shift its a chance of a mishap, or as some have said, catch the wrong gear.

But anyways slow day at work and now im rambling.
This is a 250... Against 1000's. Think again when you say it doesn't have passing speed power. It has plenty of power to pass passenger cars/trucks/whatever in the right hands.

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post #32 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-08-2016, 07:37 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

I also think this point is validated towards people who are used to other styles of bikes (mostly cruiser-type) coming to supersports.

A peer in my shop who just bought his first bike, a 1300cc Honda cruiser, stated that his next bike will be either an R1 or a Hayabusa. I tried explaining the differences to him, but he outranked me, and I think the fact that I'm a female trying to explain things pertaining to a male dominated sport to a male made him ignorant and arrogant towards what I was trying to tell him. I'm not sure what to say to people when I get this reaction, so I just stopped talking.

About a year ago, I went on a ride with a guy who had been riding Harley's (not sure which model in particular) for somewhere in the 2-4 year range when he got the itch to get a supersport. It was a rather long ride, through twisty canyon road where the majority of us had completed this a number of times before and had a bit more experience. He ended up crashing his brand new R6 straight into a guard rail trying to follow one of my friends through a turn. Same thing, long tire mark on the pavement where he locked up his rear, target fixated and that was all. Completely demolished the bike, no reusable part on it as it had flipped over the guard rail and rolled over the rocky edge. He had to be airlifted to a hospital as the bike shoved him into the guard rail before flipping over it. We always brief to ride your own ride, its not a race and no one will get a trophy for getting to the end first.

The people that I have come across don't take this matter as seriously as I do. Like the guy in my shop, he figures that since he owns a 1300cc cruiser he can easily handle a Hayabusa.

I started on a 600 SS, and would start on something smaller if I could redo it. I recently bought a dirt bike, and I have more fun on that going around than my SS on the street.

Pain is inevitable, Suffering is Optional
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post #33 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-09-2016, 02:06 AM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

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Originally Posted by Anthony D View Post
So we hear this phrase all the time, used mostly when people want to buy their first bike, and don't want to listen to advice given by more experienced riders, which is to start small, like on the Yamaha R3 or Kawasaki Ninja 300.

They will say, "Oh, I will be ok on a 600/750/1000/Busa because I will just respect the throttle, and that the bike is only as fast as your right hand makes it.

Bullshit.

The biggest determining factor in getting a first bike is what will happen when you fuck up, which you will. Making a mistake on a bike you should not be on will result in very bad things happening to you and the bike and possibly people around you.

Let me give you some examples.

1. I was riding back in 2005, and was leading a group ride. A new rider joined us, and said he would stay at the back, keep it slow, and respect the bike. He was on a brand new Kawasaki ZX-10R. He did what he said, stayed slow, and thought he was respecting the bike. However, he hit a pothole. The bump from the pothole caused the rider to grab a handful of throttle, which made the rear tire spin up. He didn't know what to do, and closed the throttle. Doing so proceeded to highside him into a tree. Had he been on a smaller-cc/less powerful bike, the rear tire wouldn't have spun. Had he been more experienced, he would have known not to close the throttle, and just ride it out. So he wound up in the hospital, with a destroyed bike.

2. Was riding with a new rider, attempting to help him learn the ropes a bit. He was on a K6 750 at the time. We were riding down a rural street, doing about 35mph. He thought he was in thrid, when he was actually in second. He grabbed a downshift, and instead of hitting second, he drops into first and the bike lofts the wheel. He panics, keeps the throttle open, and loops a wheelie. All he was wearing was a tank top and jeans. He didn't have collision insurance either. As the bike loops over, and lands on top of him, it hits the pavement and cracks the stator cover, spilling hot oil on him. So he is now covered in hot oil, sliding down the pavement, with a bike on top of him. I have never heard a grown man scream and cry like I did that day, especially when they took the wire brush to his road rash at the hospital. Bike was destroyed.

Those are just two examples. There are plenty more, I just don't feel like typing them. Maybe others will chime in.

I just hope that this whole "respect the bike" bullshit goes away. You can't respect a bike enough not to make mistakes on it. That goes for anyone, whether it is me, Marc Marquez, or a new rider. We all make mistakes. It is the bike we are on and our relative experience levels that determine what those mistakes do to us.

Start small. Take the MSF courses. Take track schools once you have the basics of riding down.

Hope this helps.

I think your just bad luck to ride with!


I agree the motorcycle safety course teaches new riders a lot. Lucky in the state of PA it was offered to me for free when I started riding. I think all states should offer it for free in order to motivate young guys to check it out.
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post #34 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-09-2016, 02:23 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

[/QUOTE]


Somehow, this seems to be the go to video in recent years to prove a small bike can be just as fast. I agree that it's good for these arguments and I also think a 250/300 can be outright brillant in the right hands. There are lots of lap times from your favorite tracks around the country to support that not to mention videos like this one. The problem I have with that video is that it shows a very talented rider doing a trackday (not a race) up against some less than talented liter bike riders clearly cherry picking. You have to wonder if .....I don't know. Take someone else with the same level of talent, with the same level of understanding of his particular machine (regardless of displacement), and put him on the same racetrack. The 250 get's left behind easily. I don't think there are too many tracks around the world where the smaller bike holds the lap record. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
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post #35 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-09-2016, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnage
Somehow, this seems to be the go to video in recent years to prove a small bike can be just as fast. I agree that it's good for these arguments and I also 250/300 can outright brillant in the right hands. There are lots of lap times from your favorite tracks around the country to prove it. The problem I have with that video is that it shows a very talented rider doing a trackday (not a race) up against some less than talented liter bike riders clearly cherry picking. You have to wonder if .....I don't know. Take the same someone with the same level of talent, with the same level of understanding of his particular machine (regardless of displacement), and put him on the same racetrack. The 250 get's left behind easily.
You are correct in saying equally skilled riders will go faster on bigger bikes, but don't forget the discussion is about new, unskilled riders saying a 250/300 can't be fast enough. And as the video shows, in the right hands, it can be plenty fast. That is the point I was making. I was not saying anything about skilled riders.
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post #36 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-09-2016, 02:45 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

I gotcha Ant. I had some of the most fun on my wife's 08' Ninja 250 years ago so any newjack who doesn't think the smaller bikes are still a blast (even for skilled riders) is misinformed. That video alone takes the cake.
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post #37 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-09-2016, 03:39 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

You can show the bike all the respect you want, just know that it doesn't give two fucks about you.
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post #38 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-10-2016, 08:24 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

I have been riding now for about a year and a half my first bike was a sv650 and I spent all my time canyon riding . After six months of having it I brought a 1300cc cruiser went on cruiser rides and the first thing I notice cruiser guys can't corner the riders in those groups thought I had been riding for years because the way I handle it

During the next few months I would bounce back and forth and I must say the the sv and cruiser felt about the same power ( cruiser a little more ) but petty even especially in the throttle play , a few months later I was riding the sv and got tired of the fact I couldn't find tune my front end to me so I started looking at getting a new bike

And I will say I wasn't Expecting the throttle to be non forgiving on the 750 and the power was just crazy , I was used to actually moving the throttle compared to barely even turning it so I rode around for a few weeks in b mode just to get a feel for the bike because I knew this was a big difference from what I am used too in the throttle and power to the way I sit on it

My first canyon ride on that thing shook me up even after getting a feel of the bike I knew it would be awhile until I could even get close to the way I rode the sv in the canyons and I will admit the throttle scared me

I didn't understand why people said don't get a sport bike for your first bike until I spent some time on it , these bikes are not forgiving in any way and no matter how good you think you are or how much respect you think you can show it you are surviving and not riding even after having it a few months I remember hitting a pot hole and blip the throttle and it just jump away and puckerd my butt

Now I have had it for 7 months and I am still learning it and this is my third bike and I have rode over 20k in my short riding time and I still consider myself a new rider and firm believer that a sport bike should not be your first bike

Sorry for the long post

Last edited by jaker 750; 01-10-2016 at 08:29 PM.
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post #39 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-10-2016, 10:53 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

No worries man. Just take your time on the 750. They have been incredibly fast for a while now. The 750 will reward you once you begin to get along with it.

Edit: I'll add to my post that a few track days won't hurt now that you have a bit of experience under your belt. Did you completely get rid of the SV? Many track guys (even some street guys) completely rebuilt the SV's front end for better handling and have gotten great results. Please tell us you didn't get rid of such a capable bike over a few suspension woes that can easily be fixed!!!

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post #40 of 228 (permalink) Old 01-10-2016, 10:55 PM
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Re: Why "respecting the bike" is bullshit...

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Originally Posted by Carnage View Post
No worries man. Just take your time on the 750. They have been incredibly fast for a while now. The 750 will reward you once you begin to get along with it.
I'm hoping the same with mine. Going from the carb'd 600 to an fi 750 since this past spring is like night and day
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